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 grendel083 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
How is the tally of pestilence a general rule?

Compared to Noxious Touch?
Tally grants bonuses. That's pretty general. What specific rule does it grant at 10-14? Noxious Touch.
If you want to go the General<Specific route, no way is Noxious Touch the general of the two.>

C:CD PG. 73 Daemonic Gifts should clarify some of this as well.

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
@Tomb King

What you are doing is making a RAI argument.

The rules for Noxious Touch explicitly mentions daemons. CSM units like plague marines and havocs are NOT daemon units. What you are doing is assuming that because they get NT from the Tally, then they have permission to use it. That is only implied, not explicitly expressed.

In order for them to have explicit permission, the rules for the Tally would have to go "All units of Nurgle get and can benefit from NT whether they are daemons or not" or the rules for NT needs to be "The close-combat attacks of all units with NT are poisoned....".

lol alright and lets try this.

What you are doing is assuming that because it mentions daemons in noxious touch that even though it states all models get it from the tally that all models do not actually get it?

There are 3 arguments here:
1. Do all followers of nurgle daemon or not get noxious touch. (RAW and RAI both Yes)
2. Do you have to be a daemon to get noxious touch. (No rule states you do the only requirement is being a follower of nurgle.)
3. Does noxious touch grant poison 2+ to models? (Yes RAW and RAI) Do you have to be a Daemon to use noxious touch? (Nothing in the rule for noxious touch states this as a requirement).

Therefore to conclude: Does a model that has noxious touch wound on 2+ in CC? That is the question being currently argued. I would say most definitely yes. Unless an faq comes out saying that you have to be a daemon to benefit from the rule or that it only affects models in C:CD. Until then the rule grants a 2+ to wound in CC per RAW.

There is no question that all followers of Nurgle gets Noxious touch. There is also no question that NT grants 2+ poisoned. The question here only is if you have to be a daemon to benefit from the rules of NT.

However, you have to keep in mind that 40K is a permissive ruleset. That means that if the rules do not give you permission to do something, then you can't do it. NT gives permission to daemons to hit with 2+ poisoned cc-attacks. It does not give permission to any other units to do so. Adding anything beyond that is a logical assumption you are making and hence, your own intepretation of how the rules work, or RAI.

If you want to say that NT only mentions daemons but that is not a requirement, then what's to stop you from also making the assumption that shooting attacks are poisoned 2+ as well? Hey, it only mentions close-combat attack, but that is not the only way to wound someone, right? The fact that NT only explicitly mentions cc-attacks is enough, just like the fact that NT only explicitly mentions daemons.

 jy2 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
@Tomb King

What you are doing is making a RAI argument.

The rules for Noxious Touch explicitly mentions daemons. CSM units like plague marines and havocs are NOT daemon units. What you are doing is assuming that because they get NT from the Tally, then they have permission to use it. That is only implied, not explicitly expressed.

In order for them to have explicit permission, the rules for the Tally would have to go "All units of Nurgle get and can benefit from NT whether they are daemons or not" or the rules for NT needs to be "The close-combat attacks of all units with NT are poisoned....".

lol alright and lets try this.

What you are doing is assuming that because it mentions daemons in noxious touch that even though it states all models get it from the tally that all models do not actually get it?

There are 3 arguments here:
1. Do all followers of nurgle daemon or not get noxious touch. (RAW and RAI both Yes)
2. Do you have to be a daemon to get noxious touch. (No rule states you do the only requirement is being a follower of nurgle.)
3. Does noxious touch grant poison 2+ to models? (Yes RAW and RAI) Do you have to be a Daemon to use noxious touch? (Nothing in the rule for noxious touch states this as a requirement).

Therefore to conclude: Does a model that has noxious touch wound on 2+ in CC? That is the question being currently argued. I would say most definitely yes. Unless an faq comes out saying that you have to be a daemon to benefit from the rule or that it only affects models in C:CD. Until then the rule grants a 2+ to wound in CC per RAW.

There is no question that all followers of Nurgle gets Noxious touch. There is also no question that NT grants 2+ poisoned. The question here only is if you have to be a daemon to benefit from the rules of NT.

However, you have to keep in mind that 40K is a permissive ruleset. That means that if the rules do not give you permission to do something, then you can't do it. NT gives permission to daemons to hit with 2+ poisoned cc-attacks. It does not give permission to any other units to do so. Adding anything beyond that is a logical assumption you are making and hence, your own intepretation of how the rules work, or RAI.

If you want to say that NT only mentions daemons but that is not a requirement, then what's to stop you from also making the assumption that shooting attacks are poisoned 2+ as well? Hey, it only mentions close-combat attack, but that is not the only way to wound someone, right? The fact that NT only explicitly mentions cc-attacks is enough, just like the fact that NT only explicitly mentions daemons.

As much as I like beating a dead horse I have but one last thing to post and then we can both go on our marry ways agreeing to disagree.

C:CD PG. 73 Daemonic Gifts an exert here: The following pages include Gifts of chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Marks, and daemonic steeds, ALL of which are EQUIVALENT to the weapons and other wargear used by mere MORTALS.

Cheers!

Im not denying that daemon is listed in noxious touch. Im stating tally supersedes it.

Got an FAQ to say that a specific piece of daemonic wargear is allowed to be used by someone from another Codex?



Unless you've got something that LETS you use it. You cannot.

It states Daemons. Therefore it means Daemons.

RAW Your chaos Cultists or what have you, do not benefit from noxius touch.

 jy2 wrote:

Or a tervigon (Level 1 psyker) with Invisibility (2 Warp Charges).

Or a non-psyker Inquisitor with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer.

Just because you have something doesn't mean you can make the automatic assumption that you can always use it.

How is a level 1 psyker able to have a Warp charge 2 power? Per the rules, the Tervigon would have to roll again.
Also, what prevents a non-Psyker Inquisitor from using a Nemesis Daemon Hammer? OK, sure he can't activate it, but it is still a Thunder Hammer.

All followers of nurgle benefit from the rule, as it states. So yes it works. Stop crying about it nid player.

 juraigamer wrote:
All followers of nurgle benefit from the rule, as it states. So yes it works. Stop crying about it nid player.

Care to provide evidence? Perhaps you can quote where they "benefit" from the rule? Just a question from a Epidemius-Nurgle player.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Or a tervigon (Level 1 psyker) with Invisibility (2 Warp Charges).

Or a non-psyker Inquisitor with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer.

Just because you have something doesn't mean you can make the automatic assumption that you can always use it.

How is a level 1 psyker able to have a Warp charge 2 power? Per the rules, the Tervigon would have to roll again.
Also, what prevents a non-Psyker Inquisitor from using a Nemesis Daemon Hammer? OK, sure he can't activate it, but it is still a Thunder Hammer.

I could be wrong about the tervigon example as I don't have my BRB with me currently.

Inquisitor, on the other hand, can purchase the Daemon hammer without having to purchase the psyker option, but does that mean he can automatically use the force weapon ability of it?

Didn't think so.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Because every model with the mark of nurgle is supposed to gain it, and that'd be pointless if they can't use it.

"The daemon's cc attacks" reflects the fact that only daemons could possibly gain it at the time it was published.

The "Daemon's cc attacks" precedes what noxious touch does. So Daemons with noxious touch gain the listed bonuses. If it said models with noxious touch you'd be fine.
How is Followers of nurgle (tally rule) more specific than daemon? The daemon of nurgle is a subset of follower. Looks like specific vs general was backwards.

-Matt

rigeld2 wrote:
I love it - jy2 presented a RAW answer preceded by "it's cheesy" and people jump on the cheese instead of the Rw.

Mhmm, he said "BESIDES" not "this is not right BECAUSE". That's ymdc for ya though...

SInce GW hasn't FAQ'd it to not allow it, it seems legit to me (especially since they FAQ'd pretty much every other ally shenanigans people were hoping to pull off; eg, Sanguinary Priests in every army, IG commanders issuing orders to Marines, etc).

 juraigamer wrote:
All followers of nurgle benefit from the rule, as it states. So yes it works. Stop crying about it nid player.

No, they have the rule and cannot use it as they're not a Daemon.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
All followers of nurgle benefit from the rule, as it states. So yes it works. Stop crying about it nid player.

No, they have the rule and cannot use it as they're not a Daemon.

Alright what does noxious touch do? It states, "The Daemon" not A Daemon. The context is different.

What in the rule stops them from using it? It doesn't have a caption (daemons only) which some rule have if certain things are not allowed to use it.

If they have a rule they can use it.

 Tomb King wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
All followers of nurgle benefit from the rule, as it states. So yes it works. Stop crying about it nid player.

No, they have the rule and cannot use it as they're not a Daemon.

Alright what does noxious touch do? It states, "The Daemon" not A Daemon. The context is different.

What in the rule stops them from using it? It doesn't have a caption (daemons only) which some rule have if certain things are not allowed to use it.

If they have a rule they can use it.

If it said The space marine could a guardsman use it? No.


Actually, what you're saying is wrong. A squad has an attached character w/o infiltrate. Squad has infiltrate. Can the squad use infiltrate?

"The Daemon"

is a CSM with MON the Daemon? Nope, cannot use.

Well to anyone following this thread I feel the facts have been provided. You can make your own call on which way to look at it. I would recommend talking to a TO and/or your opponent before a game/tournament to find out how they are going to rule on it as ymmv. As for me I will be playing it as all followers used the rules they are provided. Others will play it they arent daemons so cant benefit. Niether can be definitively wrong without an faq or new book.

So your happy to play Chaos Cultists wounding on a 2+ in combat then?


Your logic is flawed man.....

Cms... Nope, not a daemon, possessed, warp talons, spawn etc. With Mon can, being daemons, seems pretty simple

 Formosa wrote:
Cms... Nope, not a daemon, possessed, warp talons, spawn etc. With Mon can, being daemons, seems pretty simple

I do dislike this comparison as it files in the face of 4th and 5th. IMO, the daemon rule is not a requirement for this since the Tally was not written with it in mind. In the former Codex Chaos Space Marine (4th ed) they had three daemons, (Greater, Prince, and Lesser), one that could be argued to be a daemon (Possessed had Daemonkin), but none of them were labled in the codex as daemons. It took Grey Knights, and I believe an FAQ to figure out what Daemons were out there. Not once in 4th or 5th did I ever see anyone bring up a question to as whether or not the Tally affected Nurlge Marked then. If it worked as you guys are saying only on daemons then the friend and foe bit isn't much of a disadvantage.

Might it be rules at written? Well I think that is rather obvious. You all have pointed out time and again it was written for daemons, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it. The only way for say a Plague Marine to get Noxious Touch is not to buy it, but to grandfather it in under Epidemius's Tally rule. Its not something that normally should occur so why should GW say model when only daemons can normally get it? Its just poorly written for something that is now (barely) two editions old. It is my opinion that since any follower of nurgle, defined as daemon of nurgle or model with the mark of nurgle, is affected that any and all get the benefits. I feel that was the intention of the rule. If GW had wanted all of them not to benefit they would had stated only daemons of nurgle gained noxious touch, much like how they specified only plagueswords wound on a 3+ at first.

Now maybe with the advent of allies this will change, considering many special rules and wargear were altered not to affect allies like Kairos, the KFF, or Sang Priests did change. However until I see an FAQ specifically addressing this issue, which I don't imagine will if the rumor of a new book early next year is true, around my FLGS we play it as such and for outside events I'll advise as always to as the TO in a tournament or opponent in friendly games as they would have final say. other then that what cane you do.

A daemons melee attacks do x. Are you a daemon? No? Then it doesn't work. I wish it did, i play the army. But it doesnt


Also it didn't come up before because you couldn't build a consistent army around it. It required a daemon player running mainly nurgle. You just didn't see it often enough for it to become a valid question

Epi's rule states that at a certain number, you gain noxious touch. Further it states in the section regarding the table that all benefits affect all followers.

Key word being affect. Followers of nurgle gain the special rule, and are affected by it.

 juraigamer wrote:
Epi's rule states that at a certain number, you gain noxious touch. Further it states in the section regarding the table that all benefits affect all followers.

Key word being affect. Followers of nurgle gain the special rule, and are affected by it.

Yes, all models gain noxious touch.
What do the rules for Noxious Touch say?

They say what they say, and epi's rule states they are affected by it.

Words.

 juraigamer wrote:
They say what they say, and epi's rule states they are affected by it.

Words.

Yes, Epi's rule says that the Marines are affected by Noxious Touch.
So we look at Noxous Touch to see what it does.
Oh - it says Daemons. So even though the Marines are affected, they gain nothing as they are not Daemons.

I say, this reminds me of the "Can Vendettas Outflank?" thread...

How do the CSM boons work? They work basically the same thing, giving buffs to models. The problem is the wording there.

Everything says "The champion something". There is no "champion" in the codex. Thus you can roll on the table, but nothing happens ever. Because no-one is "champion". They are Lords, Sorcerers, Daemon Princes, X Champions etc, but not a single one of them has a rule saying they are "the champion". Champion of Chaos doesn't say that, so don't bring it up.

No, but they have a rule called Champion of Chaos

The rule makes them a champion of chaos.

epidemus rule makes them a Follower of Nurgle if they have mark of nurgle, or are a daemon of nurgle.


Noxius touch doesn't make them a daemon. Therefore, your argument is flawed.

Here's an analogy.

My gun uses .45 rounds.

Uncle Bob buys 20 lottery tickets and wins big. He buys 9mm rounds and gives it to all my guns.

So my .45 now has 9mm ammo. Does that mean it can automatically use them?

 Bloodhorror wrote:
No, but they have a rule called Champion of Chaos

I stand corrected in that regard. Champion of Chaos makes the model "the champion", because Champion of Chaos says "[blah]Then refer to the table opposite to see what boon (if any) your champion has gained.[blah]"

Now, a Daemon Prince can roll on the table thanks to Gift of Mutation. Will the daemon prince get the boons then? Yes, but can the prince use them? By the same logic as used with the noxious touch & Mark of Nurgle the prince can't use them. How about Tzeentch's Boon of Mutation that targets a friendly daemon? It is a single, friendly character that then takes a hit and rolls on the table. Can the daemon use the boon it gets?

As for NT:

Noxious Touch: The Daemon and its weapons are covered in the most lethal toxic substance, instantly infecting any flesh it touches. The Daemon's close combat attacks are poisoned, wounding on a 2+, as described in the warhammer 40k rulebook.

To me, the Daemon part is merely describing the wielder (its a daemon codex for crying out loud, not describing My Little Pony!) and not defining the explicit Daemon rule as a requirement to use NT.

So, I'd allow it.

EDIT: I'm wondering if folks are still stuck on the old 5th ED FAQ for Grey Knight when determining if the Nemisis Force Weapon affected models that didn't explicitedly stating Daemon in it's rule. But the FAQ said if "daemon" is worded elsewhere (old Oblits and old mandrakes comes to mind), then the GK weapon would work.

I don't see this in the current FAQ anymore (as the new 6ed rule book identifies all the daemons neatly).

Thoughts?

So... what do you think I said last night? ^^^^

 whembly wrote:
So... what do you think I said last night? ^^^^

The right thing. Lol

Well, as you yourself said, the rulebook defines Daemons quite Neatly, i see no rule in Noxius Touch that allows a "Follower of Nurgle" to use it.

Therefore i'd allow any DAEMON to use it.

Units with the Mark of Nurgle are not Daemons. They can get the other benefits of The Tally, but Noxius Touch does not Apply to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless, obviously they are Daemons as well....

Warp Talons, Obliterators, Possessed, Spawn etc. etc.