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I've played against Kharn the Betrayer twice now, first game he single handedly ripped through an entire GH squad before I could shoot him down, 2nd time same thing. He's only 160 points, but he will always make his ponts back once he's in combat and I'm finding ti very hard to stop him getting into combat.
Are there ways of stopping him that I cant think of when he's in a big squad in a rhino?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kinda answering my own question here, but want to make sure my theory is correct.
If you can charge Kharn and his squad he is somewhat less effective.
He has 4 base attacks, +1 for Pistol CC making it 5. If he doesnt charge, he doesnt get his +2 attacks or his +1S, but does get +1 for Counter attack.
So this gives him 6 S6 attacks re-rolling to hit on the first turn. Challenge him, let your champion die as a sacrifice.
Next turn, he's lost his hatred, so no more re-rolls, plus no more extra attacks so he's down to 5 attacks of which any 1's are hitting his own unit. Still needs a 2+ to kill MEQ, but you are only giong to lose 4 guys a turn instead of the 6-7 he would kill on a charge. Hopefully you can get a hidden powerfist on him and take him out, but ideally you need to have taken his whole unit out in the first turn so any and all remaining attacks can be directed at him.
Best bet is to double charge him with 2 units so he's stuck in challenges for 2 rounds and by then hopefully his unit is dead and you then should be able to whittle him down.
But man, is he hard to deal with.

Challenging him could prove to be trickey since there will probably be a champion in there to accept while kharn murders the rest of the squad.

How is you opponent running him? with beserkers in a rhino? on foot?

If hes on foot a vindicator might be an idea, centre the blast on his head so he has to take the wounds. I havent seen his new stats but if he still only has a 5+ inv then hes toast.

T4, 3 wounds, and only a 5+ invulnerable save? Just shoot him to death. Kill the unit so he can't LOS, then introduce him to a melta gun.

Are there ways of stopping him that I cant think of when he's in a big squad in a rhino?

Ignore him as long as he's embarked because you can't charge out of a Rhino. Don't let your opponent use the 5th edition rule anymore, even if the Rhino doesn't move you can't assault out of it, so the squad will have to spend a full turn disembarked before it can charge. And of course once it does disembark you shoot it to death.

If hes on foot a vindicator might be an idea, centre the blast on his head so he has to take the wounds.

This doesn't work, a Vindicator's gun is only a blast weapon, not a barrage weapon, so you allocate wounds based on distance to the shooter just like any other weapon.

 Peregrine wrote:
T4, 3 wounds, and only a 5+ invulnerable save? Just shoot him to death. Kill the unit so he can't LOS, then introduce him to a melta gun.

Are there ways of stopping him that I cant think of when he's in a big squad in a rhino?

Ignore him as long as he's embarked because you can't charge out of a Rhino. Don't let your opponent use the 5th edition rule anymore, even if the Rhino doesn't move you can't assault out of it, so the squad will have to spend a full turn disembarked before it can charge.

If hes on foot a vindicator might be an idea, centre the blast on his head so he has to take the wounds.

This doesn't work, a Vindicator's gun is only a blast weapon, not a barrage weapon, so you allocate wounds based on distance to the shooter just like any other weapon.

Pretty much yeah, i use kannons

Yes obviously shooting him is the correct answer, however there must be some ways of dealing with him once he is in combat, as its not every game your opponent will put him and his squad in the middle of the board and shout 'shoot me'. in fact, thats never happened to me, and he tends to get into combat quite easily.

I hate Kharn also, I esp hate how my friends always say, "Blood for the blood God." before every roll of the dice.

It's very hard dealing with Kharne in CC and I am also not looking forward to the moment when my buddy gets around to starting his World Eaters since I will then also have the "joy" of dealing with him.

My best bet would be to avoid to have Kharn in close combat at all(or at least for as long as possible), I believe a couple of Wolfguard with Combi-Meltas in a pod to blow up his ride so he will have to foot it could be a sound investment.

I love Kharn (mainly because I use him ) but I can understand why anyone would hate playing against him, he is a beast in combat. The best way to deal with him is to just shoot him and his unit to death. Take out his squad then target some S8+ weapons at him when hes the closest model. If he fails 1 invulnerable save he's toast. Or go after him with TH/SS termies or those space wolf guys riding those big wolves (can't remember what they are called). I always lose Kharn to those guys especially if they have a thunder hammer or similar strength weapon.

Kharn? Really? A jugger lord with the axe is way more threatening. Most armies have special characters that will string him up by his innards. You are playing wolves, don't you have a couple? Any tough lord with a storm shield is going to wreck him.

I have thought about TH/SS weapons, but they are really expensive in a wolves list. problem is though that Kharn can take out a squad of normal termies before they strike with his I5. SS will help for sure, but I personally dont own any. Thunderwolves are only T5, so he would kill them just as easy as a normal marine unless they have SS in which case they cost 80pts a model. I do have a DP with 2 meltas, but they are used for heavy tanks, and not rhinos, plus, if I popped the rhino, he would charge that squad and wipe them out and more than make his points back that way.
I guess shooting is the only way then, I agree once he's on his own he's not that hard to kill, but managing to kill his retinue before he gets into combat means my entire army shooting at him and ignoring everything else. Seems like its a no brainer choice to include him in every Chaos army. Even Logan Grimnar at 275 points cant go toe to toe with him :/

I understand the hesitation of using the meltas for a Rhino, but I think it could be worth it, since usually Longfangs should be able to deal with everything else. Also the squad would almost guarantee you the first blood VP.

Also, just FYI, he could not charge you from an exploded vehicle, except if it was a Landraider.

Logan Grimnar in a squad of grey hunters (standard & Power fist) is insane. I charged Logan, his hunters and a wolfguard out of a landraider into a 10 man squad of eldar wrathguard with warlock, wraithseer and Morgan Ra. Logan used his relentless rule to have all the rapid fire bolters and plasma guns fire and still be able to assault. The wolfguard challanged morgan ra and the rest of my squad ripped the eldar apart. The squad was gone in 1 round.

yes Logan is nice, however pit him against Kharn with 7 S7 AP2 I5 attacks that hit on a 2 with a re-roll and he'll die pretty quick, oh and he's only 160 points compared to 275

For SW in particular, I can see arjac being able to take him. Just make sure you either get rid of his entourage first, or have a second character on hand for challenging.

I've only played against him once but i found a round of bolter fire followed by a blast from a Heldrakes Baleflamer does the job quite nicely.

Of course, this was after he charged my Defiler and basically cut it in half. He is just out and out nasty!

You deal with Kharn the way you deal with everything in 40k; shoot it, a lot!

All these suggestions about what the fight him with in combat are ridiculous. Why try match him at what he does best? Instead take advantage of his weakness, that being how vulnerable he is.

I use Kharn a lot. He is at his happiest chopping expensive stuff without good invulnerable saves. So if you must meet him in CC, try a charge with 2+ units of GH or even blood claws; the volume of attacks will get to him since he's only T4 and 3+armor. Anything with a TH/SS can also deal with him pretty safely.

However, it's usually much safer to shoot him. Krak missiles in particular can get to him from almost anywhere and ID him on the spot once his unit is gone.

I don't play him, but have seen some effective tactics against him in close combat.

First off, he is not a powerhouse against SS / TH terminators. Use them against him and his unit when you play MEQ, it's really the way to go if you can.

Tau seem to do the best against Kharn, he's particularly vulnerable to rail gun fire from range. I have seen him get softened up preparing for a charge, then defeated in close combat.

Eldar Banshees seem to do well against him in close combat, or at least get the odds down to 50 / 50.

Nobs seem to do well against him, I have seen him get wiped by them a couple times.

Obviously, power fists, instant death weapons, poison weapons, etc are all things to look at. But the most effective tactic I have seen is to simply move your units back when you see him coming. An extra round of shooting can make a huge difference.

Challenges are key, he relies on getting kills and not getting hit in return. T4 and a 5++ is pretty squishy. However, any chaos player worth their salt will make sure to have a scrub champion in any unit Kharn is in to take the challenge so probably not to be counted on.

Another thing to realize to though he is a tactical nuke of a unit, and frankly will likely demolish whatever he comes up against, he will be stuck in the open next turn. This is his weakness as once unleashed he raises hell, but he will die to shooting the turn he's done. So the key is feed him and his unit a disposable unit of your own then waste him in the subsequent shooting phase.

Lucius the eternal is rather good against him i managed a chargeagainst him with lucius and a retinu of CSM with CCW MoS and IoE the first turn my champion beat his champion then lucius duelled kharn and killed him due to the duelists pride rule lucius had 8 Int6 attacks at Ap3 admittedly my dice may have been a bit lucky but still lucius is a good answer to Kharn in CC he is simply to fast

 buddha wrote:
Challenges are key, he relies on getting kills and not getting hit in return. T4 and a 5++ is pretty squishy. However, any chaos player worth their salt will make sure to have a scrub champion in any unit Kharn is in to take the challenge so probably not to be counted on.

Another thing to realize to though he is a tactical nuke of a unit, and frankly will likely demolish whatever he comes up against, he will be stuck in the open next turn. This is his weakness as once unleashed he raises hell, but he will die to shooting the turn he's done. So the key is feed him and his unit a disposable unit of your own then waste him in the subsequent shooting phase.

Cultists, i choose you!

 Digriz wrote:
I've played against Kharn the Betrayer twice now, first game he single handedly ripped through an entire GH squad before I could shoot him down, 2nd time same thing. He's only 160 points, but he will always make his ponts back once he's in combat and I'm finding ti very hard to stop him getting into combat.
Are there ways of stopping him that I cant think of when he's in a big squad in a rhino?.

Do you have a lot of missile launchers in your Space Wolves list? Pop the rhino with the missile launchers and thin out his unit with your other shooty units. Next turn, thin out his unit with your other shooty units then fire the missile launchers at him.

 buddha wrote:

Another thing to realize to though he is a tactical nuke of a unit, and frankly will likely demolish whatever he comes up against, he will be stuck in the open next turn. This is his weakness as once unleashed he raises hell, but he will die to shooting the turn he's done. So the key is feed him and his unit a disposable unit of your own then waste him in the subsequent shooting phase.

Unless he is going with some terminators, sure is risky to rolling a 1 and having him killing a precious termie, but being able to ignore missiles and death from battle cannons, and maybe bolter torrents might be worth it. (I don't usually run him but when I do he goes on a LR with 4 termies and maybe a biomancy sorc to give FnP to the unit)

As SW i think your best answer is just to move away from him as much as possible and have long fangs shoot him when they get a chance. a direct fight against him won't go in your favor.

On the two times I've had to face Kharn the first time I made the mistake of thinking my guardsmen's overwatch would handle him after i weakened his squad, big mistake on my part as he promptly chewed through my blob after taking two wounds. After that I went with what everyone has said and mowed him down before he could get to me the next game.
So with that I would say I've got to agree with the general advice of just gun him down before he gets to you, as SW your longfangs should do the trick from what I've seen of them in action with SW

Solution #1: Pop the transport (it's just a Rhino, after all), then let your 15x ML Long Fangs remove Karn from the table. He's only T4, after all.

Solution #2: Yeah, Kharn is kinda scary in CC. But he's not as scary in CC as Bjorn the Unstoppable Murder Machine.

I tend to send the doom of malantai his way. They sit in challenge forever, his unit is out of the game and slowly dies to life leech. Eventually I get a good str 8-10 hit through and he poofs. Not much help for a space wolf player...

Once he is out in the open, throw a lone wolf at em with a THSS. Eternal warrior, feel no pain and a 2+/3++ means you should survive to hit him in his punk mouth with a hammer.

Another fun, albeit expensive option is to feed him to lukas. Kharn will easily chop lukas apart even through the pelt of the dopplegangrel. Then just pray you roll good on your stasis bomb. Granted, lukas is almost as much as kharn...

I would stick with blowing up his ride. Just get 10 GH's with 2 meltas(or maybe even plasma) and a standard in a drop pod. Drop in next to the rhino(preferably the rear armor) and take it out. Between 2 meltas, a krak grenade and the bolter fire the rhino is toast. Shoot him again next turn as he cant charge you, and then pop the wolf standard if he does. Kharn will probably still be alive, but you will effectively neutralize him and the rest of the zerker squad.


Being eldar, I laugh at kharn. He either assaults my guardians, in which case he wastes his time. He assaults a wraithlord, and tarpits or dies. Or he assaults my harlequins/ archon, and is ripped to bits.

Ally in a DE archon init 7 instantdeath.
Ally in a GK character with a halbard for again init6 instant death.

As for challenges, remember Chaos MUST challenge, so if he has 2 characters he must pick one to challenge.

in shooting you should use precision shots to try and kill the chump champion Kharn is riding with, as kharn has 2+ LOS but the chump only has 4+

It's too bad your SW. Usually you could feed an empty srg to him for a turn. SM even get to run away after regroup and shoot him again.

Usually with morons like Kharn it's a good idea to go with some rhino blocking or feed him garbage. Does jaws work on him? Jaws tend to be good.