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@Zanderchief; There's a very good quality outfit in China, who got in touch with me a while back: http://stores.ebay.com/mo8812

Could try getting in touch with them.

Worldwide, there's loads of places.

Well after reading all this all I can say is they didn't deliver what they promised. To be honest in 8 weeks you could have done this all by yourself and save the money for some other commission or even better more minis .

Thanks winterdyne.

Did you use them or was it a pro-to-pro contact only?

Pro-to-pro, looking to take a piece of my pie, lol. :-)

Communication is a bit of an issue; their English isn't brilliant, but from the pics I've seen (I asked for a small sample model to be sent out as I need to see work in the flesh from painters I sub out work to, but got told to buy one off their ebay store..). But going on the pics they've put up they look like they're pretty good. Fast too, if the turnaround I was quoted is accurate.

kb305 wrote:
little things add up big time. over even 20-30 models doing one small thing to each one can add an hour or more total to the job.

I don't really see that as 'adding' time to the job. It just is part of the job.


How far do you think, say, a plumber would get if he told his customers 'Yeah, the job's finished... but I didn't actually put your toilet back together, because that would have added an extra hour to the job...'

 insaniak wrote:

kb305 wrote:
little things add up big time. over even 20-30 models doing one small thing to each one can add an hour or more total to the job.

I don't really see that as 'adding' time to the job. It just is part of the job.


How far do you think, say, a plumber would get if he told his customers 'Yeah, the job's finished... but I didn't actually put your toilet back together, because that would have added an extra hour to the job...'

i was responding to the comment that many commission painters charge a pitance for their time.

as long as youre getting a fair price for your work it's all good. slave labour isnt cool.

i dont know any plumbers that work for 3 dollars an hour.

Cheers.

I like your paint style. Shame I am not living back home! ;-)

Another Nail in the coffin for BTP.

They got too greedy with their studio expansion and "Valhalla" days, before even getting the basics right, it's no wonder that they're having cash flow problems. I remember when they used to get massive orders in and film the unboxing. Shawn has clearly overstretched the business.

I know 'time is money' for a professional service, but there is straight up FLASH on the barrel of the BA gun. This is past mold lines.

Removing flash and cleaning contact points are required of any level paint job. Drilling barrels is so easy and quick, especially on orks which have such large guns, it is a almost a non-existent cost for massive payoff in perceived quality.

I used to paint for people and while some people wanted 3-colors and based and just wanted basic and cheap, there is still a level of personal pride one needs to take. Just because I choose the cheaper carpet quality doesn't mean I expect it to be installed poorly or cheaply.

I've been watching BTP continuously shoot themselves in the foot here the past month or so, and this thread has given me another reason to respond...

The BA reference model is something I am currently doing (though the basework is better than my skills). I'm not a commission painter by any means, and I'm hitting skills people pick up in their first year (I'm into my second year of wargaming and 3rd year of painting), but if BTP couldn't do better than the BA reference, wtf...

Though be fair, that yellow is nice, and better than what I could do lol.

Sorry you got the shaft man...

As a painter who wishes someday to be asked if i do commission work i find this thread shocking. The OP clearly stated what he wanted and went over it several times, even providing reference material to help BTP do the job correctly. To then find that the work done is subpar and does not follow what was requested is just wrong.

For me mold line removal and barrel drilling are essential parts to preparing the models before undercoat and painting. I've often looked at the armies on display for GW ToS tournaments and been annoyed to see barrels have not been drilled. I also disagree that mold line removal and barrel drilling are extra costs, they are key parts of prep.

Anyway, i look forward to reading BTP viewpoint.

 insaniak wrote:

kb305 wrote:
little things add up big time. over even 20-30 models doing one small thing to each one can add an hour or more total to the job.

I don't really see that as 'adding' time to the job. It just is part of the job.


How far do you think, say, a plumber would get if he told his customers 'Yeah, the job's finished... but I didn't actually put your toilet back together, because that would have added an extra hour to the job...'

Not really a great comparison, since a plumber's job isn't finished until everything is put back together, but there's nothing saying a model can't be finished without being drilled and cleaned. You can't use your toilet if it hasn't been put back together, however I've never heard of any gaming group that disallowed you to play with miniatures that had mould lines or barrels not drilled... to the contrary, I see people gaming with such miniatures all the time. I have, however, seen gaming groups that won't let you game with miniatures that aren't painted and based, which these models are.

If you were going to draw an analogy, I think something closer would be taking your car to a mechanic and them saying it needs X, Y and Z fixed and you deciding that you'll only pay to get X and Y fixed because Z doesn't affect your ability to drive the car safely and you don't want to pay for something that's not necessary.

I think people are hung up on the idea that professionally painted has to equal "painted better than I could paint it myself", or even "painted well". Certainly some services are exactly that, painting very high quality, but the majority of BTP's work is more "I want an army and don't have the time to do it myself, so I'll pay someone else to do it". If you're only willing to pay for 10 minutes work per model and properly cleaning and finishing a model would take 8 of those minutes, I can see being happy with them spending that time on the paintjob itself (which frankly, is about the quality I expect from someone who leaves the mould lines on their miniatures anyway, so I'd say the quality of cleaning the model is on par with the quality of the paintjob itself).

Now if you want to argue that they overcharge for that service or they misrepresented themselves, that's another discussion which may be a valid complaint.

Personally I think it's amazing how little some commission painters charge for their work. Looking at Ifalna's gallery, even her "table top" standard looks like it has several hours of work per model once you take in to account assembly, cleaning and finishing and it's only €3.50 per model. If I had the money and she had the time I'd buy a whole army off her and feel terrible about how little she's getting for it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Not really a great comparison, since a plumber's job isn't finished until everything is put back together, but there's nothing saying a model can't be finished without being drilled and cleaned.

That's where personal opinion obviously differs... but to me, a model isn't finished unless it is drilled and cleaned.

I think people are hung up on the idea that professionally painted has to equal "painted better than I could paint it myself", or even "painted well".

Nope, I'm not 'hung up' on that at all. In fact I have often argued the contrary when people have presented ebay auctions for derision on the basis that the 'professional' painted model being sold doesn't look that great...

My sole 'hang up' here is that if you are going to sell painted models as a professional painter, then regardless of the level of painting being paid for the model should be competently and completely assembled. That's not something the customer should have to ask for. I would no more think of handing over a model with weapons undrilled than I would think of just half gluing the model and handing them the rest on sprues, unless that was specifically asked for.

For the record, I don't paint on commission. I've only ever done conversion work. And so often the models I've sent out weren't completely assembled, as I leave parts off if they will get in the way when painting... But even then, those unglued parts had mould lines removed and barrels drilled where appropriate. It would have never even crossed my mind to do anything less, even though it might have been a little tempting in some cases, because cleaning mould lines has never been one of my favourite jobs. I might have missed the odd one here and there, but my goal was always to present a model that was as finished as I could get it, so the buyer had minimal or no work to do at their end.

 insaniak wrote:


For the record, I don't paint on commission. I've only ever done conversion work. And so often the models I've sent out weren't completely assembled, as I leave parts off if they will get in the way when painting... But even then, those unglued parts had mould lines removed and barrels drilled where appropriate. It would have never even crossed my mind to do anything less, even though it might have been a little tempting in some cases, because cleaning mould lines has never been one of my favourite jobs. I might have missed the odd one here and there, but my goal was always to present a model that was as finished as I could get it, so the buyer had minimal or no work to do at their end.

THis is the distinction... BTP was not purely being a painting service. Some painting services require you to provide complete models and they paint as is. You assemble and prepare the model.

In this example, BTP was selling a conversion service, not just basic assembly and painting. And if they are selling a CONVERSION for a Cyborked NOB and a MEGAMEK model, then they are bound to clean mold lines and barrels.

So that is there highest level of paintjob? good god, I'm sorry that I could not read, the hole thing as I have a very small attention spand.

Just sayin, they look like 3 step models, basecoats wash rehighlight... awful.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


And I appreciate that, but not everyone shares the same sentiment in regards to only wanting to sell the highest quality. I think in general, smaller operation commission painters don't value their time highly and end up charging a pittance for their time, far too little for what I'd consider "skilled" work. As soon as you actually want to run an organised business, time becomes a much more vital commodity, you can't just tell your employees to work a few extra unpaid hours/days to get a job done.

What you regard as finished may not be what other people think. As long as it's clear to the buyer that X money only gets them a paintjob and not extensive cleaning and finishing, I don't see the problem.

well as a local commission painter, I also have to say that even if you charge cheap (I charge 3 bucks for a 3 color model) some things are included in your costs. For instance, Mold line removal, gap filling, and barrel drilling. No one, and I do mean NO ONE, will buy your work if you leave such things out. That being said, I dont believe that what we do is really that lucrative of a business. BTP is trying to get that way, but there is only so much you can do in an industry that supports DIY. Sure, folks out there that don't have great painting skills or have no time but have the extra bucks make for good customers, but your looking at a very small percentage of an already tiny marketshare. Its one of the reasons why I'll paint anything from warhammer, Ceramic angels from Hobby lobby, or even pizza plates for display at pizza stores because a job is a job and theres just not enough people wanting paintjobs vs all the people playing out there (not to mention all the artist willing to paint them)

Paitryn wrote:

well as a local commission painter, I also have to say that even if you charge cheap (I charge 3 bucks for a 3 color model) some things are included in your costs. For instance, Mold line removal, gap filling, and barrel drilling. No one, and I do mean NO ONE, will buy your work if you leave such things out. That being said, I dont believe that what we do is really that lucrative of a business. BTP is trying to get that way, but there is only so much you can do in an industry that supports DIY. Sure, folks out there that don't have great painting skills or have no time but have the extra bucks make for good customers, but your looking at a very small percentage of an already tiny marketshare. Its one of the reasons why I'll paint anything from warhammer, Ceramic angels from Hobby lobby, or even pizza plates for display at pizza stores because a job is a job and theres just not enough people wanting paintjobs vs all the people playing out there (not to mention all the artist willing to paint them)

I think it's just like any other industry, it is just another form of art, and if someone can spend millions for a preserved shark in a tank there will be someone out there willing to pay money for painted minis, considering the massive amount of minis being sold unpainted. You have to create the desire first. People will spend money on things that are cool, they just have to know what is possible. I think Gately understands how big the market could get when people become used to painted miniatures... and as the games themselves grow... but he is trying to make his business into the McDonald's of the industry. He'll probably keep on having customers because there are a lot out there. But I think individuals and small groups could do it just as efficiently, probably more efficiently (just not as fast... although the OP here might have something to say about that). Once an individual creates a unique style that is an expression of him/herself, it makes the market larger for everybody.

Paitryn wrote:
well as a local commission painter, I also have to say that even if you charge cheap (I charge 3 bucks for a 3 color model) some things are included in your costs. For instance, Mold line removal, gap filling, and barrel drilling. No one, and I do mean NO ONE, will buy your work if you leave such things out. That being said, I dont believe that what we do is really that lucrative of a business. BTP is trying to get that way, but there is only so much you can do in an industry that supports DIY. Sure, folks out there that don't have great painting skills or have no time but have the extra bucks make for good customers, but your looking at a very small percentage of an already tiny marketshare. Its one of the reasons why I'll paint anything from warhammer, Ceramic angels from Hobby lobby, or even pizza plates for display at pizza stores because a job is a job and theres just not enough people wanting paintjobs vs all the people playing out there (not to mention all the artist willing to paint them)

Well it looks like people are still buying their work. BTP don't even try and market themselves as a company that will paint you high quality work (at least not what I've seen of them), they market themselves as a company who can give you an army with which you can play games without putting in a few hundred hours of your own time. Some people are clearly willing to pay for that. Hell, I'd be happy to get a few poorly painted armies just so I can play some games because the speed at which I paint combined with how little free time I have means I never actually get decent sized armies together... I just don't have the cash lying around to do it because I like to save my money for cars and houses

If that is a lvl 4 paintjob then I paint at lvl 9... And I honestly don't think I'm that good of a painter. Thanks for your review. Maybe Miniwargaming should stop promoting them so much.

This is simply disappointing, from both a service and quality standard.

For those stating that the mold lines and barrels are not necessarily part of a finished product, you are right. It is, in fact, an opinion. But it is an opinion anyone who even looks at this hobby would understand is an expectation for any level of "professional" work done. To claim otherwise is to feign ignorance, and from a company such as BTP, whose sole purpose is to deal with miniatures in a variety of fashions, such ignorance is frankly ludicrous to assume. It would be going to a BMW dealership to get any oil change and they didn't change the filter. It is simply not done. To further complicate this impression, the buyer asked for their level 4 service. Now, while I am personally not familiar with how many or what levels BTP has, level 4 would at least make some reference, to me, of a higher than average and advanced painting and modeling service. Advanced painting and modeling does not allow for mold lines or unfinished barrels, simply due to it's very nature it is advanced, and regardless of time needed or taken the customer is painting for better than basic service.

Now onto the painting itself. It is clean, and definitively high-end table-top quality, but it is not something that would be out of place in any gaming club or store. Again, I will point out the interactions between the customer and BTP: that the level of painting was not up to the standards asked for or advertised. Furthermore, according to the OP, it was not even up to the level 3 standards while he was charged and paid for a level 4. I will not go to a point and say that BTP deliberately deceived the OP, as that doesn't seem to fit what is being said, but it is clear that BTP seems unable to manage their finances, something that would raise a tremendous amount of red flags for me when I am spending any large sum of money, which this painting service certainly seems to charge. For the requested level, and by their own admission, these models were not up to the advertised standard, and there is zero justification for this fact. If someone pays for a service, you deliver. If you are unable to deliver or are going to be delayed, you contact and try to make arrangements. But you do not get to claim and advertise one thing and then provide another. The final nail here is that the OP provided a multitude of images, descriptions, and requested bits that were blatantly ignored. He did not say that they could use their own initiative to design the entire look, instead he provided them with clear instructions and reference material. Again, for the level of quality that is being paid for, that is willful ignorance that should not be defended.

I sincerely hope that the OP can find some kind of solution with BTP, or with another company, to receive the products as he envisioned and desired. I also wish BTP the greatest success, but actions such as these should not be defended nor ignored.

since this horse is getting beat to death anyways.

"professional" service has nothing to do with removing mold lines and drilling guns. it comes down to what is being paid vs how many hours is being spent on it. if you had 200 fantasy models to paint and were being paid 3 bucks a model or whatever it is people charge for "low end" i dont think you would be trying to remove every mold line.

great prep is a time consuming process. i go over every model more than once, quality control, making sure i didnt miss any. making sure everything is smooth. dont forget trimming the mold lines off the front of chainswords, that's always fun.

now go ahead and do that at 3 bucks a model. enjoy your 25 cents an hour.

and look at OPs reference model, the blood angel doesnt have a drilled out bolt pistol and there is a mold line on it.

and again im not trying to defend BTP, im not a fan of their work. my point is: great work needs a decent budget. and if you want great work why would you go to the "mcdonalds" of mini painting AKA BTP.

kb305 wrote:

"professional" service has nothing to do with removing mold lines and drilling guns. it comes down to what is being paid vs how many hours is being spent on it. if you had 200 fantasy models to paint and were being paid 3 bucks a model or whatever it is people charge for "low end" i dont think you would be trying to remove every mold line.

great prep is a time consuming process. i go over every model more than once, quality control, making sure i didnt miss any. making sure everything is smooth. dont forget trimming the mold lines off the front of chainswords, that's always fun.

It's a totally opinionated thing, but I think it's just important to be clear about this if you are offering a service. I don't do drilling out/moldline removal for free on tabletop figures because I would have to then charge more, and a lot of buyers don't care about the mold lines etc.

Now if there is a big chunk o flash obstructing something, ofc I will clean it up, but I won't spend 30 mins extra per low standard model ( I am pathetically slow) filing and prepping it perfectly without first asking the owner if they actually want that and don't mind paying a little extra for it. I think it's common sense, I just ask first incase the owner does indeed want them cleaned but forgot to tell me.

My moan here is these were NOT cheap, and not their lowest standards. As the price goes up so should the basic care of the mini, including cleaning and prepping. Regardless, they should have asked the owner and I hope they did.

The real problem I have is the paintjobs being so far from what was promised, not the mold lines and gun barrels.

I really don't expect the barrels drilled out if I had wanted that I would have made it part of the instructions and I would have expected it to be taken out of the conversion budget as agreed / quoted.

I should point out the reference model with the mold lines, was not the fault of any artist by rather my own as I assembled them as it was one of the first models I had ever done. I am far more picky these days with the assembly I do myself.

I am happy to pay for assembly, model cleaning etc, I am not unreasonable. I would also point out no one in this project or any of my projects is being paid 3 dollars a miniture the average would be in excess of $15.

With conversion and assembly on top of that, most people I use charge 20% of the models RRP to do that. Infact that BTP lvl 4 BA Assault Marines were more like $21 per model.

I don't think I am being unfair asking for the level to be what was indicated nor expecting the conversion work to follow the instructions as set out and agreed upon.

I am talking to Shawn and I do hope we can find a resolutions to all this as in my book an error only becomes a mistake when you refuse to correct it.

I would have much more confidence in using BTP in the future is I knew they were a) able to produce the product as agreed and b) willing to correct things when they go south.

Like Ifalna has said the real problem is the quality of the paint is not what was promised, and the conversions work did not follow the laid out and agreed plan. mold lines and gun barrels don't even register on my radar as a grief.

I really hope Shawn comes to the part and BTP steps up to the plate to turn my project around.

Considering that his painters are on salary there is no question that they have a quota to fill. It is not like most single or two person operations where the painters are getting most of what client is spending on the commission. It turns into a painting assembly line and quality suffers even if the client is spending top dollar for work. It is really the fault of someone who sets up a commission with BTP and not researching what is happening at the studio currently.

Typical BTP work, I have had the same issue in the past year with them. They will not order direct because of shipping costs and prefer that "you order your own models and send them in" to avoid further shipping costs to them. Plus its less work on their part if you deal with it, work you are paying for anyways. Its hard as hell just to get a commission quote out of them, they are no help when it comes to brainstorming whats realistic and what they can't do. For example, I wanted to magnetize chaos space marine weapon options for plasma, flamer, melta as I don't know what I am running yet, but they didn't follow that and I paid for it. I followed up with them on it and got a response of 'thats not realistic to do" i pointed out the spreadsheet where I paid for magnetization and they pointed out they magnetized the terminators instead which is "technically more expensive than what you were charged" Needless to say I won't be using them again. My army was night lords and the lightning was horrible and chalky (sorry no pictures on hand. I sold the army off to recoupe cost). Reading over other forums says a lot of how poor the company is and how crappy a product they put out is. People just need to do their homework and see what else is out there, because BTP certainly isn't it.

Any companies in the US you guys can recommend? I want to try getting a few models and I'm wondering if there are any companies out there with better reputations?

Check out the painting service thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/248070.page. The only problem is the best painters with the most reasonable pricing tend to be book months in advance. It is pretty telling if the service you contact is fairly cheap and has time for your commission. If possible get a sample of the painters work and not just pictures.

Was looking at BTP's store and the aobr warboss they modded, they want $45 usd for, and they are saying it is level 4.

http://www.bluetablepaintingstore.com/Ork_Warboss__Lot_2934/p1459024_8210666.aspx

 wizardv12222 wrote:
Was looking at BTP's store and the aobr warboss they modded, they want $45 usd for, and they are saying it is level 4.

http://www.bluetablepaintingstore.com/Ork_Warboss__Lot_2934/p1459024_8210666.aspx

I'd never buy anything painted or converted by them as it is way overpriced. Im sure they get some people to buy that junk though. I now only buy the cheap half assembled or poorly painted trade ins in their store as I can just strip/fix them myself.

 wizardv12222 wrote:
Was looking at BTP's store and the aobr warboss they modded, they want $45 usd for, and they are saying it is level 4.

http://www.bluetablepaintingstore.com/Ork_Warboss__Lot_2934/p1459024_8210666.aspx

I was thinking about using them for a few things awhile ago, but honestly even with my limited painting skills I would rather paint something myself then pay as much as they want for the amount of work they do.

At 45 dollars that is crazy. It probably cost them next to nothing for parts and I doubt it took very long to paint either.