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Hey guys im gonna add a sorceror as my 2nd HQ i was thinking a undivided sorceror with 3 mastery levels and sigil of corruption. Roll on the biomancy table and hopefully get endurance relentless noise marines and FNP cultists will be awesome. Can yoi use the same power more than once a turn ?. How are you guys running your spellcasters?

I run mine MoT, Level 2, Terminator with Spell Familiar. comes out to 140 points for a pretty 'ard HQ. I've found that, unless you're Ahriman, anything above level 2 is a bit overkill. Too many points spent on skills that you aren't going to use but once or twice in a game or too many psychic checks for your big, expensive, *two-wound* Sorcerer. (Doesn't help that Eldar are peculiarly common in my meta. Without fear of exaggeration, there are more Eldar players than marines around these parts.)

I also roll in Biomancy because pretty much all of the spells are useful in that discipline.

That being said, if you are set on a level 3 sorcerer, give him a spell familiar so you can reroll that double 6 perils. Will effectively halve your chances of killing your own HQ. And helps against Eldar!

Unmarked Sorceror lvl 3 Bike and spell familiar. Roll biomancy till you hit endurance, then telepathy. Stick him with nurgle bikes. Majority T6 unit with 3+ save and FNP. I also usually have a unit of spawn so I'll switch up between spawn and bikers as endurance targets as needed. T6 FNP 3 Wounds and IWND.

I run mine MoT, Level 2, Terminator with Spell Familiar. comes out to 140 points for a pretty 'ard HQ.

The problem with MoT there is you have to roll a Tzeentch power making you effectively ML 1. 2/3 chance of getting biomancy powers that dont help the sorceror that much (iron arm and warp speed are wasted on a sorceror imho).

 Tarrasq wrote:
Unmarked Sorceror lvl 3 Bike and spell familiar. Roll biomancy till you hit endurance, then telepathy. Stick him with nurgle bikes. Majority T6 unit with 3+ save and FNP. I also usually have a unit of spawn so I'll switch up between spawn and bikers as endurance targets as needed. T6 FNP 3 Wounds and IWND.

I run mine MoT, Level 2, Terminator with Spell Familiar. comes out to 140 points for a pretty 'ard HQ.

The problem with MoT there is you have to roll a Tzeentch power making you effectively ML 1. 2/3 chance of getting biomancy powers that dont help the sorceror that much (iron arm and warp speed are wasted on a sorceror imho).

I don't mind rolling on the Tzeentch table. I think the 4++ is preferable to having that one extra chance on that one power you want. Have to factor economy in as well.

Out of curiousity, is anyone doing the MoT and Sigil of corruption? It seems having a 3++ save on a Main HQ seems pretty good nowadays and can pump out some pretty stellar pyschic powers.

Either

Unmarked lvl 3 Sorc with terminator armor with force axe. Spell Familar.

Tzeench Sorc with bike, force axe, sigil(3++), scrolls of magus(6s to wound)..lvl 3, spell familar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deffskulla wrote:
Out of curiousity, is anyone doing the MoT and Sigil of corruption? It seems having a 3++ save on a Main HQ seems pretty good nowadays and can pump out some pretty stellar pyschic powers.

it's alright if you arent also paying for termite armor. The problem is that there are few MoT units you want to join, so you end up in unmarked units or termiators, in which case why not have termiantor armor.

Have to agree with all the spell familiar comments.

Played against Eldrad Saturday. Ahriman suffered 4 wounds from Perils the whole game (He had Life Leech so got two back somehow).

My 125 pt Level 3 with SF failed the first attempt EVERY time he rolled for a power, then with the reroll he passed.. at one point with 1, 2, 3.

So. Best piece of advice I have is to keep them cheap and with Spell Familiar. If you don't want the Black Staff or Master of Deception, take a simple Sorcerer.

Raulengrin wrote:
I run mine MoT, Level 2, Terminator with Spell Familiar. comes out to 140 points for a pretty 'ard HQ. I've found that, unless you're Ahriman, anything above level 2 is a bit overkill. Too many points spent on skills that you aren't going to use but once or twice in a game or too many psychic checks for your big, expensive, *two-wound* Sorcerer. (Doesn't help that Eldar are peculiarly common in my meta. Without fear of exaggeration, there are more Eldar players than marines around these parts.)

I also roll in Biomancy because pretty much all of the spells are useful in that discipline.

That being said, if you are set on a level 3 sorcerer, give him a spell familiar so you can reroll that double 6 perils. Will effectively halve your chances of killing your own HQ. And helps againskkmkhgmkkkk
kkkmmm
t Eldar!

Raulengrin wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Unmarked Sorceror lvl 3 Bike and spell familiar. Roll biomancy till you hit endurance, then telepathy. Stick him with nurgle bikes. Majority T6 unit with 3+ save and FNP. I also usually have a unit of spawn so I'll switch up between spawn and bikers as endurance targets as needed. T6 FNP 3 Wounds and IWND.

I run mine MoT, Level 2, Terminator with Spell Familiar. comes out to 140 points for a pretty 'ard HQ.

The problem with MoT there is you have to roll a Tzeentch power making you effectively ML 1. 2/3 chance of getting biomancy powers that dont help the sorceror that much (iron arm and warp speed are wasted on a sorceror imho).

I don't mind rolling on the Tzeentch table. I think the 4++ is preferable to having that one extra chance on that one power you want. Have to factor economy in as well.

Which makes little sense since the whole reason to take a Sorcerer is for good psychic powers. They should be your main focus.

What do you guys think about Telepathy? Everyone suggests Biomancy but shriek is awesome and always accessible. So for what should I hope for if I roll on Biomancy or if I would split how much powers would go where?

I've had amazing results with Shrik. It really helps in rooting out units with very high cover saves (scouts, rangers, harlies, etc), but it can be a bit tricky since you will roll under 9-10 halft the time, and Leadership values rarely go lower than that.

If you roll the Warlord trait that makes enemy units use their leadership value, it gets even better!

 Sephyr wrote:
I've had amazing results with Shrik. It really helps in rooting out units with very high cover saves (scouts, rangers, harlies, etc), but it can be a bit tricky since you will roll under 9-10 halft the time, and Leadership values rarely go lower than that.

If you roll the Warlord trait that makes enemy units use their leadership value, it gets even better!

ever heard of flamers?

shriek is better against more expensive 2+ save nasties like termites.

Also the chaos warlord table is pretty good, I wouldnt ever roll on anything else with Chaos.

 Shadox wrote:
What do you guys think about Telepathy? Everyone suggests Biomancy but shriek is awesome and always accessible. So for what should I hope for if I roll on Biomancy or if I would split how much powers would go where?

If a unit is nasty enough that it calls for Shriek to be used on it, then you are probably too close to it and going to die next turn. The 12" range is a big turn off.

Shriek is only worth chasing on Ahriman, where you can pump Life Leech or Smite, Doombolt, Shriek and an Enfeeble or something on your targeted unit.

Leave 2+ telepathy rolls for Unmarked sorcerers, because all you're really after is Invis or Hallucination anyways.

The probably with unmarked level 3s (or any level 3) is that if you get a buncha Witchfires, you can only use one. Yet another reason why I recommend Ahriman + an inexpensive support sorcerer. Cheap cheap cheap to make up for rolling lots of witchfires (which is bogus)

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Unmarked Sorceror lvl 3 Bike and spell familiar. Roll biomancy till you hit endurance, then telepathy. Stick him with nurgle bikes. Majority T6 unit with 3+ save and FNP. I also usually have a unit of spawn so I'll switch up between spawn and bikers as endurance targets as needed. T6 FNP 3 Wounds and IWND.

I run mine MoT, Level 2, Terminator with Spell Familiar. comes out to 140 points for a pretty 'ard HQ.

The problem with MoT there is you have to roll a Tzeentch power making you effectively ML 1. 2/3 chance of getting biomancy powers that dont help the sorceror that much (iron arm and warp speed are wasted on a sorceror imho).

I don't mind rolling on the Tzeentch table. I think the 4++ is preferable to having that one extra chance on that one power you want. Have to factor economy in as well.

Which makes little sense since the whole reason to take a Sorcerer is for good psychic powers. They should be your main focus.

You are correct, of course. But you also imply doombolt and breath of chaos are not good psychic powers, which I can't agree with, and there is a 2/3 chance of getting one of those every time you roll on the Tzeentch table. I run my sorcerer with terminators, as shock troops, preferring a sorcerer over a lord for his capabilities as a more adaptable ranged AND melee character. I have been considering running a sigil in in terminator armor, as the idea of a 2+/3++ s5 ap 2 force weapon is a frightening concept. Also, to whoever said Iron Arm is not desirable on a sorcerer, I have to disagree for the above reasons.

^ Definitely agree.

Raulengrin wrote:
You are correct, of course. But you also imply doombolt and breath of chaos are not good psychic powers, which I can't agree with, and there is a 2/3 chance of getting one of those every time you roll on the Tzeentch table.

In the set-up you have posted previously you are only rolling on the Tzeentch table once. If you roll Doombolt great. If you roll Breath, it's ok, but takes all your Warp Charge to cast and has tiny range, so situational. The other two powers aren't worth writing home about. Furthermore, Chaos doesn't need more damage dealers, it needs force multipliers, which is what Biomancy does, and that's why Tzeentch Sorcerers are very rare so far.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
You are correct, of course. But you also imply doombolt and breath of chaos are not good psychic powers, which I can't agree with, and there is a 2/3 chance of getting one of those every time you roll on the Tzeentch table.

In the set-up you have posted previously you are only rolling on the Tzeentch table once. If you roll Doombolt great. If you roll Breath, it's ok, but takes all your Warp Charge to cast and has tiny range, so situational. The other two powers aren't worth writing home about. Furthermore, Chaos doesn't need more damage dealers, it needs force multipliers, which is what Biomancy does, and that's why Tzeentch Sorcerers are very rare so far.

I don't think Biomancy has enough blessings/maledictions to make it a reliable force multiplier, though. Yes, if you are unmarked and level 3, you roll three times, and your chances of getting at least one of them is good. But in the event that you don't, your force multiplier is now only killy, and you're left with a rather expensive HQ that likely doesn't quite fit in with the rest of your list. Divination is the only discipline (one chaos cannot reliably get) that one can reliably use as a force multiplier, and reliability is something that is more important than ever in 6th. I'll find my force multipliers elsewhere.

And even if you DO get the FNP power, you're paying 135 points minimum to give one squad a turn 5+ FNP (and a couple other lesser abilities I can't recall at the moment). In my opinion, enfeeble is the only power worth mentioning when it comes to force multiplication.

I can actually see a lvl 3 MoT with sigil being quiet good a 3++ save means he can absorb high str shots and if he fails LoS for a 2+ i also imagine he would be excellent in a challenge give him a force axe absorb the damage on his 3++ strike back with your axe and blow them up with a force test if they survive 2 biomancy powers and a Tzeetch power wont be to bad

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
I can actually see a lvl 3 MoT with sigil being quiet good a 3++ save means he can absorb high str shots and if he fails LoS for a 2+ i also imagine he would be excellent in a challenge give him a force axe absorb the damage on his 3++ strike back with your axe and blow them up with a force test if they survive 2 biomancy powers and a Tzeetch power wont be to bad

on a bike maybe, otherwise he is liable to be ID. Remember that you cannot use the 3++ and then LOS. Also unless you also give him TDA, even with the 3++ he is likely to die to a champion with weight of attacks. The 3++ might shrug off 10 wounds, but it might fail twice in a row early.

Raulengrin wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
You are correct, of course. But you also imply doombolt and breath of chaos are not good psychic powers, which I can't agree with, and there is a 2/3 chance of getting one of those every time you roll on the Tzeentch table.

In the set-up you have posted previously you are only rolling on the Tzeentch table once. If you roll Doombolt great. If you roll Breath, it's ok, but takes all your Warp Charge to cast and has tiny range, so situational. The other two powers aren't worth writing home about. Furthermore, Chaos doesn't need more damage dealers, it needs force multipliers, which is what Biomancy does, and that's why Tzeentch Sorcerers are very rare so far.

I don't think Biomancy has enough blessings/maledictions to make it a reliable force multiplier, though. Yes, if you are unmarked and level 3, you roll three times, and your chances of getting at least one of them is good. But in the event that you don't, your force multiplier is now only killy, and you're left with a rather expensive HQ that likely doesn't quite fit in with the rest of your list. Divination is the only discipline (one chaos cannot reliably get) that one can reliably use as a force multiplier, and reliability is something that is more important than ever in 6th. I'll find my force multipliers elsewhere.

The problem with your argument here is you are basically saying that in the event that you take a sub-par Sorcerer build then you may end up with sub-par options in your game. That's to be expected and isn't really much of an argument. Simple solution, don't take a sub-par Sorcerer. Either go ML3 unmarked or don't take any at all (with the exception of a Slaanesh mark in a Noise Marine heavy army).

BTW, no offence, but if you think Relentless is a lesser ability, especially for an army where nearly every unit can make use of it, then we have nothing left to talk about.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
You are correct, of course. But you also imply doombolt and breath of chaos are not good psychic powers, which I can't agree with, and there is a 2/3 chance of getting one of those every time you roll on the Tzeentch table.

In the set-up you have posted previously you are only rolling on the Tzeentch table once. If you roll Doombolt great. If you roll Breath, it's ok, but takes all your Warp Charge to cast and has tiny range, so situational. The other two powers aren't worth writing home about. Furthermore, Chaos doesn't need more damage dealers, it needs force multipliers, which is what Biomancy does, and that's why Tzeentch Sorcerers are very rare so far.

I don't think Biomancy has enough blessings/maledictions to make it a reliable force multiplier, though. Yes, if you are unmarked and level 3, you roll three times, and your chances of getting at least one of them is good. But in the event that you don't, your force multiplier is now only killy, and you're left with a rather expensive HQ that likely doesn't quite fit in with the rest of your list. Divination is the only discipline (one chaos cannot reliably get) that one can reliably use as a force multiplier, and reliability is something that is more important than ever in 6th. I'll find my force multipliers elsewhere.

The problem with your argument here is you are basically saying that in the event that you take a sub-par Sorcerer build then you may end up with sub-par options in your game. That's to be expected and isn't really much of an argument. Simple solution, don't take a sub-par Sorcerer. Either go ML3 unmarked or don't take any at all (with the exception of a Slaanesh mark in a Noise Marine heavy army).

BTW, no offence, but if you think Relentless is a lesser ability, especially for an army where nearly every unit can make use of it, then we have nothing left to talk about.

I forgot about relentless, and retract my statement about it. My apologies

Regarding with your go-big-or-go-home attitude about sorcerers, you would be 100% correct. In a vacuum with nothing else to consider. Where my sorcerer build has protection from potentially bad roles is that he is built into a list where he can do more than just support my other units, While your arguments are compelling, and have me considering adding the extra level, I remain adamant about the MoT as it relates to my army composition. With a squad of Tzeentch Terminators, the sorcerer not only has a (yes, smaller) chance to be not only a support character, but failing that, he can and will act as a killy character, as if I don't get any of the support powers from biomancy, all that are left are the ones that make him more deadly. You severely undervalue the versatility of using a sorcerer in this manner. Not only is he fairly cheap for how durable he is, but he can act as a support in the games where he rolls those powers, AND can act as a killy champion in the games he rolls those powers. He is put into a position, in my army, where he can do that, and for a reasonable price as well, which is another factor that you seem to refuse to recognize.

I run a noise marine heavy list so endurance is an awesome power for me

Guys to give another look at this I put my sorcerer with MoN on a palaquin in a land raider with plague marines. Everyone and their mother left their meta guns at home and my dirge caster raider has been super fun. I find nurgle spells and biomancy spells play off each other fairly well. Of I'm really feeling lucky and want to put all the points on him I give him the black mace. Now his base size is tripled for the weapon's toughness tests and hopefully you rolled either the nurgle or biomancy -tough debuff. Also really like the murder sword on him just more situational.

mostly i use mine as 3lv unmarked with chosen plasma-death squad; full telepathy of course. Invisible rhino ftw!
he can also be a good protection for obliterators with biomancy.
sorcerer is one of the few good unit in our new book and his usage is determined by your roster composition. He's cheap, and versalite unlike his loyal colleagues.

If... you take one, best bet is:

Lvl 3
Bike
Sigil.

That still keeps him reasonably cheap and effective.
I wouldn't take a mark other than MoN to give him T6.

Running in a Sapwn squad or with bikes is a good plan.

I've stopped using one because the powers are unreliable.
For example, if you wanted Invisibility you have a 17.5%/20%/25% chance to get that power.

Although this might not matter for most people, I got word back on Necrosius

"The Forgeworld Chaos Space Marine character rules will be updated to bring them in line with new Codex in a forthcoming publication. In the meantime Necrosius' rules are altered as follows. He has the Nurgle's Rot and Gift of Contagion psychic powers as described on p.71 of the Chaos Space Marines Codex. His Master of the Dead special rules also works on Plague Zombies from the Codex."

Seriously considering using him now.....

 L0rdF1end wrote:
If... you take one, best bet is:

Lvl 3
Bike
Sigil.

That still keeps him reasonably cheap and effective.
I wouldn't take a mark other than MoN to give him T6.

Running in a Sapwn squad or with bikes is a good plan.

I've stopped using one because the powers are unreliable.
For example, if you wanted Invisibility you have a 17.5%/20%/25% chance to get that power.

I like in spawn, as spawn have nothing else to shoot at and they are fearless. He also adds some power weapon punch to the unit, but most people run their spawn as MoN but i like MoT or unmarked sorcs and only the unmarked can join MoN spawn. I run my spawn alongside a bike squad that so the sorc can jump out and join them if I need the spawn to tarpit something nasty.

I Have a planned Thousand sons army at 1500 which runs Ahriman and a level 3 Tzeentch Sorcerer. The sorcerer is planning on aiming for hallucination and invisibility rolling twice on telepathy and once on Tzeentch.
Ahriman will be handling the witchfire and my Sorcerer will be buffing the Thousand sons squads and or debuffing the enemy.

I'm aware that its not the most effective way to play but the list will end up fluffy so I'm Not to worried about that.

For anyone that's interested my sorcerer can be found here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/438118-Thousand%20sons%20Sorcerer.html

 Tarix wrote:
I Have a planned Thousand sons army at 1500 which runs Ahriman and a level 3 Tzeentch Sorcerer. The sorcerer is planning on aiming for hallucination and invisibility rolling twice on telepathy and once on Tzeentch.
Ahriman will be handling the witchfire and my Sorcerer will be buffing the Thousand sons squads and or debuffing the enemy.

I'm aware that its not the most effective way to play but the list will end up fluffy so I'm Not to worried about that.

For anyone that's interested my sorcerer can be found here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/438118-Thousand%20sons%20Sorcerer.html

looks good. I assume the MoT is for fluff or you are thinking of taking a Sigil. I like the axe, I think all sorcs should rock axes as most thing you want to ID have 2+ saves. I would run mine with terminator armor instead of power armor + sigil. I like the 2+/4++(and combibolter) better than the 3++.