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TBH, it's a good introduction to what being a SoB fan is like. Sisters have it rough. They get hacked through in the fluff with nary a peep from anyone but those who love them (unless it also and apparently more importantly besmirches Mat Ward) and neglected as a game faction. OP will learn more from these in depth arguments about the fluff situation than from Lexicanum.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH, it's a good introduction to what being a SoB fan is like. Sisters have it rough. They get hacked through in the fluff with nary a peep from anyone but those who love them (unless it also and apparently more importantly besmirches Mat Ward) and neglected as a game faction. OP will learn more from these in depth arguments about the fluff situation than from Lexicanum.

Ok, there's sort of a point there. Here goes.

HEY, OP! Although you almost certainly will learn a lot about the background of Sisters by reading Lexicanum and the many (but disparate) GW sources, the most important thing to remember is that by choosing to play Sisters you become a lifelong Sisters FAN. You join a select club, a community who are able to take personal umbridge at a large company for not writing about you enough. You don't need to bother actually reading the fluff, it's just important to know that your feelings will forever be hurt and GW will stamp on your passion until your heart is shrivelled and everyone else pities you. Oh woe. This is what will surely happen should you choose to buy these toys.

The fluff is being discussed by everyone but you and me when responding to you. So please stay on topic.

Manchu wrote:I think she meant Redemption Corps.

Ouch. Yeah, that's the one.
Fail on my part - I must have confused it 50% with 15 Hours, a novel which (from what I've heard) is a lot better, but has nothing to do with SoB.

Thanks for the correction.

BlaxicanX wrote:Space Marines getting physically beaten to death by unenhanced cultists armed with autoguns and knives is something else entirely.

It sounded less one-sided in the thread. Considering that GW actually wrote about some suits of Marine power armour incorporating a "gravitic dampening field" that makes the suit and its wearer weigh as much as a normal human (so much for all those threads about Marines supposedly breaking through stairs), I don't see why he shouldn't get pushed over when several Cultists bonk into him. Likewise, autoguns do more damage than lasguns (as per the Inquisitor RPG) and can be further improved by specialised ammo. And lasguns are already enough to down a Marine in the rules, so again I don't see the issue.

On the other hand I would disagree strongly with 10 Sisters being killed by a single Flesh Tearer being "not shameful", whereas you obviously have a different opinion. But debating this now is not of any use, as we just seem to have quite a different understanding of the capabilities of both forces, likely because we have read different material that formed different impressions in our minds. Contradictions throughout the fluff are one of the big problems the franchise suffers from, imho.

The Flesh Tearer bit is somewhat weird on another level, anyways. When exactly was this supposed to happen? There was just one conflict between the FT and the Sisters on Armageddon, and Canoness Carmina ordered a retreat before the frenzied Marines could reach them, after which the FTs went into a self-imposed exile amidst hordes of Orks.

ArbitorIan wrote:You join a select club, a community who are able to take personal umbridge at a large company for not writing about you enough. You don't need to bother actually reading the fluff, it's just important to know that your feelings will forever be hurt and GW will stamp on your passion until your heart is shrivelled and everyone else pities you. Oh woe. This is what will surely happen should you choose to buy these toys.

And that is different from all other armies in 40k how? Look around. Every army has its whiners.
Biased me will now claim that the different thing is that SoB players actually have more of a right to complain than others, unless you honestly think that 10 years without a Codex update and the mini-list in WD are proper treatment. I'd like to see the riot that occurs if this would happen to the SW or GKs. Or *gasp* if they'd be folded back into a single universal Marine 'dex, just like the Imperial Guard has to play with one for its many regiments. The sense of entitlement is strong.

Another ironic thing is that it seems to be me who has to bust out the quotes again and again because people "don't bother actually reading the fluff" and just repeat someone elses hyperbole. And that thread is just one example. Go a page back on this one. I also very much recall that debate about whether Space Marines are 7, 8, 9 or 11 feet high. Many Astartes fans seem pretty "well informed" about their favourite army, it seems.

I realise I must come like an arrogant ass now, but ... sheesh. I just had to throw back when I saw those stones flying outta the glass house.

 Lynata wrote:
The Flesh Tearer bit is somewhat weird on another level, anyways. When exactly was this supposed to happen? There was just one conflict between the FT and the Sisters on Armageddon, and Canoness Carmina ordered a retreat before the frenzied Marines could reach them, after which the FTs went into a self-imposed exile amidst hordes of Orks.

That's how I remember it, from the Armageddon campaign and not a story by Dembski-Bowden with the Flesh Tearers massacring Sisters. Although I didn't read Helsreach so maybe it comes up there?

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Flesh Tearer bit is somewhat weird on another level, anyways. When exactly was this supposed to happen? There was just one conflict between the FT and the Sisters on Armageddon, and Canoness Carmina ordered a retreat before the frenzied Marines could reach them, after which the FTs went into a self-imposed exile amidst hordes of Orks.

That's how I remember it, from the Armageddon campaign and not a story by Dembski-Bowden with the Flesh Tearers massacring Sisters. Although I didn't read Helsreach so maybe it comes up there?

No they didn't come to blows, almost and the Order of Sisters almost attacked them yet again, that would be a great story in my mind, and most welcome, the eradication of the Flesh Tearers. They tore into the IG instead and ate them.

Beaviz81 wrote:No they didn't come to blows, almost and the Order of Sisters almost attacked them yet again, that would be a great story in my mind, and most welcome, the eradication of the Flesh Tearers. They tore into the IG instead and ate them.

Huh, the IG? You sure this isn't a re-telling of the Tearers' attack on the Gaius Point Militia?

Interesting how it seems that yet another misunderstanding is getting debunked once we look closer, though.

Oh I minched in my personal wishes Lynata, I want the Flesh Tearers eradicated due to them eating up Armageddon PDF-ers after finishing the Orks. And I want the Sisters to finish the job they started.

Ohh, gotcha.

Well, I suppose this will have to wait until M42. I recall the Flesh Tearers relocating to the Cadian Gate warzone in response to Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade, which occurred so very soon after Armageddon 3. So, in spite of the Inquisitorial damocles sword over their heads, it seems the Flesh Tearers' story and Chapter Master Seth's tragic search for a cure for his brethren ends in a vacuum.

But at least there was a tangible reaction to their conduct and exposed unreliability, so personally I'm satisfied. Plus, it's Chapters like the Flesh Tearers who remind us of the darker side to the Astartes. In a way you could say they were necessary. GW simply chose to delay their doom until after the timeline ends; quite a clever move to resolve the situation. They hint at actual consequences, but without removing them from play.

Yeah I can second that Lynata. As much as I dislike the Flesh Tearers the greatest worry for me is the Sons of Dorn. Think about Pariah Space Marines. *shudder*.

 Lynata wrote:

Considering that GW actually wrote about some suits of Marine power armour incorporating a "gravitic dampening field" that makes the suit and its wearer weigh as much as a normal human (so much for all those threads about Marines supposedly breaking through stairs), I don't see why he shouldn't get pushed over when several Cultists bonk into him.

Because Space Marines are capable of denting steel with their punches and can lift a thousand pounds without difficulty. No space marine would ever beat a slugga boy in close combat if a stiff wind could knock him over.

Likewise, autoguns do more damage than lasguns (as per the Inquisitor RPG) and can be further improved by specialised ammo. And lasguns are already enough to down a Marine in the rules, so again I don't see the issue.

A lasgun can injure a Space Marine if it hits him in one of the vulnerable joint or neck areas. Considering Space Marines can and have taken bolter rounds to the body and healed from them, the notion that "oh no! one of the bullets managed to hit me in my knee-joint! *dies*" is incredibly suspect.

The Flesh Tearer bit is somewhat weird on another level, anyways. When exactly was this supposed to happen? There was just one conflict between the FT and the Sisters on Armageddon, and Canoness Carmina ordered a retreat before the frenzied Marines could reach them, after which the FTs went into a self-imposed exile amidst hordes of Orks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/At_Gaius_Point_(Short_Story)#At_Gaius_Point

BlaxicanX wrote:Because Space Marines are capable of denting steel with their punches and can lift a thousand pounds without difficulty. No space marine would ever beat a slugga boy in close combat if a stiff wind could knock him over.

And that's your opinion, but not mine. A pile of cultists charging an Astartes is not a "stiff wind". Laws of physics dictate that kinetic energy is the result of both mass and speed.
See where this leads us? We may as well just agree to disagree.

BlaxicanX wrote:A lasgun can injure a Space Marine if it hits him in one of the vulnerable joint or neck areas. Considering Space Marines can and have taken bolter rounds to the body and healed from them, the notion that "oh no! one of the bullets managed to hit me in my knee-joint! *dies*" is incredibly suspect.

Space Marine resistance is probably as varied as their height, it all depends where one would look... and who the protagonist is. The latter goes for just about every faction in 40k, though.
Did the autogun bullets really hit just his knee, and did he die because of that? Or are you too just making this up because it is convenient for presentation of the argument? This is nothing against you specifically, but apparently I have to ask this question whenever Space Marines are discussed here. I have become quite sceptical regarding what a source supposedly says, which is why I prefer direct quotes rather than a recap from memory, or (if possible) double-check by using the original source. It has in the past served me well in debunking resilient hearsay about Space Marines supposedly being immortal, being larger than (on average) 7 feet, or - in this very thread - the Space Wolf Great Companies being "Chapter-sized".

Or, no - I should correct myself. All these things are probably less hearsay and flawed memory but rather conflicting author interpretation from non-GW sources, making use of artistic license and in their "epicness" ultimately leading their readers to develop a wholly different image of the Space Marines. An image which I attempt to counter by advertising GW's original stance on subjects such as these.
Do you see now where I am coming from? In the end, I'd just wish we could return to the relative balance of the studio fluff as a common ground, at least when discussing themes like these.

BlaxicanX wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/At_Gaius_Point_(Short_Story)#At_Gaius_Point

Ahh, thanks for the reference. A stray escape pod is a clever way to circumvent the restrictions of the original fluff, I'd say.
The wiki entry notes only 2 Sisters killed by this berserker, though, which does at least sound a lot better than that guy soloing an entire squad, which is how your comment on that first sounded.

Damn, now I'm actually interested in reading all of it. I've heard much about ADB's works already, and enjoyed the short dialogue we had when he posted on dakka. I assume it is not available outside this Marine-centric anthology, is it?

Just to point something out in regards to a few Cultists taking out a Marine:
Early man took down massive game like Mammoths with pointy sticks.
Lone soldiers have been able to take down tanks with a grenade.
Given the right circumstances / determination, a lesser combatant can take out a superior foe.

Alright, Lynata. I'm not really in the mood to play"Everything Is Relative" with you today. lol

I, uh... "downloaded" it. >___>

But beyond that, I'm not sure. I've heard that the BL site is starting to release short stories from anthologies as stand-alone downloads on their site. You might want to give that a shot.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I imagine it's going to be pretty hard for the OP to find useful information in amongst all the off-topic arguments about how GW have portrayed Sisters, Space Wolves and Cultists....

:/

It's actually rather entertaining.

BlaxicanX wrote:But beyond that, I'm not sure. I've heard that the BL site is starting to release short stories from anthologies as stand-alone downloads on their site. You might want to give that a shot.

I see - that would be cool!
There's quite a number of short stories that are very recommendable.

Hmm ... BL also does "print on demand", do they not? Would be cool if they'd do a sort of "create your own anthology" feature someday where you can put together a list of short stories of your own choice for a custom book... *dreams*

Exalbaru wrote:It's actually rather entertaining.

Sorry for the show.

Do you maybe have any questions? Something you'd like to hear more about? I've got tons of material lying around regarding their background.
Here is a copy of the text of Andy Hoare's Liber Sororitas, an article from an oooold issue of White Dwarf. Fairly interesting read, especially as it delves a bit deeper into Sororitas culture.

Is there any fluff/books/short stories that deal with what the sisters were like under the orginal crazy cardinal guy? I am currently working on a converted vampire counts/imperial guard/sisters of battle army and I plan on the background being that this was an offshoot order of sisters who never stopped following that cardinals teachings.

Basically all the guardsmen are skeletons/undead with the sisters serving as the vampires in charge of it all. Just gave my seraphim the bat wing backpacks from the chaos possessed sets and love how it looks.

Obviously I am going into very shaky lore territory with this, but it is starting to look really cool, so I can't pass it up.

Yeah, that's ... not gonna work with the current background as per GW's fluff. The Orders Militant are too connected, all following a singular hierarchy, with the novices taking their vows on Terra itself. Plus, under Vandire there were no multiple Orders but rather just a single army of bodyguards led by Alicia Dominica. It'd be different if you wanted to link an army of male soldiers to Vandire's Frateris Templars, especially since an entire fleet of them was swallowed by a Warp Storm.
That being said, nobody forces you to stick to it! Gav Thorpe himself once said that people are supposed to make the setting their own, so if you like your idea that much, go for it.

Then again, I would perhaps suggest using Chaos as a background rather than connecting it to the Arch-Apostate. This is "shaky territory" as well, since the Sisters' resilience against corruption is part of their overall theme and emphasised again and again in GW's descriptions - however, this did not prevent some Black Library books from doing entire armies of Chaos Sisters anyways. Plus, it's still more solid than a connection to Vandire.

Actually, I think it could work, you just have to look at it sideways....

Really, If a small number (even a dozen) remained loyal to the guy feeling their other sisters wrong? these would be able to train others in secret, expanding it...
It's a round about way of looking at it.... but these few wouldn't have needed to have any contact with the other orders, and be like a dirty secret?

I dunno - you can generally make things fit, but there's not enough info on what your army is meant to be to give a solid BSing for it

Well, as usual, it is probably a matter of interpretation - for me, it'd be too shakey. Alicia Dominica was their leader, and the Emperor himself (or so the story goes) told her that Vandire was just a big liar. It'd take quite a bit of hubris to simply assume she was wrong, especially as the "magical" energy field which had protected him during that test on San Leor (and which Vandire used to convince the Daughters of the Emperor of his divine mandate) failed to protect his neck against Alicia's sword. And even then they would have to escape the besieged palace, escape the besieged Terra, and escape the Imperial "clean-up" campaign that followed in the Apostasy's wake. And after that they would have to find new ways to procure armour, weapons, ammunition and spare parts/maintenance for their wargear. And remain hidden in secrecy for 6.000 years (whereas their modus operandi and equipment does not lend itself well to clandestine operations).

Sure you could write up ways that explain all of this, but it just feels like "female Space Marines" all over - too forced.

As long as there are some at least slightly more compatible ways to achieve the desired result, I see no reason not to go with those alternatives.

 Beaviz81 wrote:


No they didn't come to blows, almost and the Order of Sisters almost attacked them yet again, that would be a great story in my mind, and most welcome, the eradication of the Flesh Tearers. They tore into the IG instead and ate them.

Given how SoB are treated and depicted, I don't think an Order would stand much chance at all against the Flesh Tearers.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Is there any fluff/books/short stories that deal with what the sisters were like under the orginal crazy cardinal guy?

Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition has this. However its almost entirely been replicated on Lexicanum.

Flesh Tearers story was retcon in the new blood angel codex.

Necrosis wrote:Flesh Tearers story was retcon in the new blood angel codex.

The 5E one? How so? The only bit about the Flesh Tearers that I recall was the short box on the page about the Successor Chapters, and that simply didn't mention the event, or Armageddon at all.

Exalbaru wrote:
I think they sound pretty cool and all their stuff I've found is pewter. Which I like much more than plastic or emperor forbid finecast. I'll have to get that codex and those issues of white dwarf so I can delve more into it.

On the bright side, someone leaked a plausible-looking GW miniatures release schedule that implied Sisters of Battle are up for an actual Codex and plastic models at some point.

AnomanderRake wrote:On the bright side, someone leaked a plausible-looking GW miniatures release schedule that implied Sisters of Battle are up for an actual Codex and plastic models at some point.

The huge list about 1-2 months ago? Wasn't that debunked as a fake already?

 Lynata wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Flesh Tearers story was retcon in the new blood angel codex.

The 5E one? How so? The only bit about the Flesh Tearers that I recall was the short box on the page about the Successor Chapters, and that simply didn't mention the event, or Armageddon at all.

Couldn't find it. Guess I just imagine it and so did my friend. Sorry for misleading you.

Necrosis wrote:Couldn't find it. Guess I just imagine it and so did my friend. Sorry for misleading you.

No worries, thanks for checking up!

/relieved

I' ve been reading up on them with the stuff everyone has posted. I'm going to order one of the novels off amazon when I get paid

Novelwise, my recommendations would be "Faith & Fire" or "Daemonifuge". Both take some liberties with their fluff as per GW, but imho they catch the "look and feel" of the Sisters nicely, and that's the most important thing. Ephrael Stern, the main protagonist from the latter series, even had her own tabletop miniature once. Plus, the greyscale CGI-augmented images in Daemonifuge also stand apart as following a fairly unique visual style reminiscent of the 3E Codex images, being a work of art, a graphical novel, rather than just a comic:



After "Faith & Fire" you could consider "Hammer & Anvil" as well as "Red & Black", which are a direct sequel and prequel to the first book. Already knowing the lead character of Sister Miriya from "Faith & Fire" as well as the characters in her squad would be an advantage.

Lastly, there are some excellent short stories you may want to consider, although I'm not sure whether you'd want to buy an entire book just for one short tale inside. "Daemonblood" is about a Sister's self-found duty of hunting down a renegade Space Marine Sergeant during whose corruption/treason she was present (included in anthologies "Dark Imperium" and "Let the Galaxy Burn"), and "The Invitation" is about a Canoness and her kill-team hunting down Miriael Sabathiel, one of their own who, after a long time of being MIA, has somehow been corrupted into a Champion of Slaanesh, something that was thought to be impossible (included in the anthology "Tales from the Dark Millennium").

Hope that helps. There aren't many Sororitas novels around, but those that are available are pretty good.

Hell, even GW itself can't get the number of Major Orders right-- I mean, imagine if they said there were only ten legions in the great crusade, five loyalist five traitor, and that, iron hands, iron warriors, salamanders, emperors' children, etc didn't exist back then.