Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 notprop wrote:
Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.

It's a good thing the US has exactly the same culture and population density as the UK, then.

One of my issues right now with GW's business plan is the cost of entry. People don't know they're into miniatures until they've actually painted a model/played a decent sized game. It doesn't make sense to me to keep upping the price of their starter boxes, and the hobby starter set has all the necessary tools but is pretty expensive for a newbie.

Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....

The Balance sheet for GW looks good and has been improving....that's not a company going down the drain.

For every "Veteran" gamer that whines about having no place to hang out at...one of the previous posters hit the nail on the head. GW stores are GW's form of advertising and recruiting new hobbyists. They don't want you hanging out and gaming, that doesn't make them money. New hobbyists need EVERYTHING, veterans need little and are able to enjoy the hobby at home or at your FLGS who hold events that give out prizes and such.

GW has it exactly right IMO. If you are looking for a social club..look somewhere else. GW stores are retail outlets with a specific purpose. I know that's a change from the past and the balance sheet shows it's for the better...

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....

1500 to get in? not even close.

you could have a GIANT space marine army for less than 400 bucks if you use online discounters.

throw in another 100 bucks for brushes, paint, drills.

i just bought 5 boxes of assault marines to the tune of 120 buck US. brand new, free shipping.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

That's quite an exaggeration there. I mean, it's expensive (too expensive for new gamers, IMHO) but not that expensive.

For a new gamer, I think this is quite reasonable for a Space Marine army (all prices Canadian MSRP)

Hobby stuff

Starter set ~ $120 (for the rulebook mainly, though you get some great minis too)
Hobby starter set -~ $70
Primer ~$20
Large Figure case ~$120
codex ~$50

=~$380

Models

2 Space Marine Battle forces ~ $310
Devastator box ~$42

=~$352

That's 40 tacticals, 10 assaults, 10 Scouts, 2 Rhinos, 5 Terminators, 5 Devastators (probably make a ten man squad with some tacticals) and 2 HQs. I'd probably just use the Librarian from the starter set.

So all in all ~$732 before tax.

Is it Spez Marinez? Yes, but let's be honest, most new players start with Marines. Is it optimal or tournament hyper competitive? No, but it's a solid start and fine to cut your teeth on.

Good gaming!

You can also circumvent alot of that cost by investing in the "discounts" that are provided in the Starter Sets.

Two Dark Vengeance sets set you back about $160 USD (probably more Canadian). Some quick swap outs of the parts you do not need for trades and other things while lengthy, can produce the desired transports and other essentials to flesh out your army and make it somewhat competitive.

 Ugavine wrote:
WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

You mean the dominant position of D&D is just a lie? Sure, it had issues with 4th edition, but you know the difference between WOTC and GW? WOTC is actually listening to feedback from players for 5th edition.

And guess what: even the "D&D replacement" game that's become popular is just D&D 3rd edition with some house rules added. I think that's a pretty good sign, really.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

Only because they lost the license. Apparently the game was doing fairly well when it was killed off by license issues.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I am speaking from personal experience here. WOTC would not be the saviour some folks think it would be. Ive said it before..If you thought GW flip-flopped on rules, WOTC has a page on its webiste devoted to get this...DAILY UPDATES of card rulings. DAILY??

Except that:

1) There is no daily rule updates section. There used to be a daily "ask wizards" section which would cover existing rulings that people asked about, but that wasn't new information.

2) The most frequent rulings WOTC makes are clarifications, not changes. That is, a ruling that says in clear and simple terms what the rules already unambiguously settled, but in a convenient location on the card's database entry where it's easy to find. Functional changes in the rules are very rare.

3) WOTC's frequent rulings are a good thing. Where GW leaves things ambiguous and tells you to roll off to decide how to play it WOTC rules everything absolutely clearly, no matter how unlikely it is that the situation will ever happen in a real game. When you clearly address every single obscure interaction in a complex game it's inevitable that you're going to issue a lot of rulings, it's just the price you pay for having absolutely unambiguous rules where it's impossible to create a situation that isn't explicitly covered by the rules.

How about this..Listen to the playtesters that you bring in and ban the cards they tell you are problematic. Dont rely on the crybabies who got their butts handed to them at a local tournament to write in about how broken this card is in tournament play. -- But they dont. Its always been an after the fact knee-jerk reaction.

Err, what are you talking about? WOTC rarely bans cards, and only after extensive documentation at high-level tournaments that the metagame is broken. They never ban things just because people whined about losing to it at their local tournament.

Also, "just listen to your playtesters" is stupid. WOTC does listen to their playtesters, but no realistic amount of playtesting can ever be 100% perfect. Occasionally a metagame that complex will go in a direction that nobody anticipated, and mistakes will slip through. But considering the number of cards they publish those mistakes are extremely rare.

I played in stores when I was like 11 - the only GW in the whole area. I brought what painted minis I had on Thursday Games Night and played random games against random people. I didn't do it often (because when you're 11 you can't drive yourself to the shops), and eventually that stopped and I played in one of three places (my place, or one of my other two friends that played's places). The next time I played in a GW store - and weirdly I can remember it perfectly - was when a bunch of friends just got into it (as I was starting Uni). Played in the GW store three times. And that was it.

So yeah, originally I was one of the kids swimming around in the place (but not as young as the youngest kids just left there by their parents), and when I grew I up I saw all the kids milling about. I used to actively avoid the place during School Holidays (and you could tell the staff wanted to as well).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It's a good thing the US has exactly the same culture and population density as the UK, then.

Ok, first post to make me really laugh in a while.

Thanks Bob.

Ravenous D wrote:
GW is killing itself with its own stores, hell the head trainer at GW north america walked into my local GW and said "there is too much a club house vibe here, you should kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base".

When I got into warhammer again recently, the "regulars" were seriously offputting. They just squat in games workshop like a jungle mammal flinging its gak at passers by. The staff do their best to cater to people who actually buy stuff, but the stores would undoubtidly be a lot more popular if they cleared out the regulars.

Ravenous D wrote:Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Hmm.

Widescreen tv.
Xbox 360
A game a month
XBox live membership

Yeah, no. Games Workshop really isn't that expensive, and I say that as someone on minimum wage. If you can't afford luxuries, don't buy them.

Testify... honestly. GW is expensive, and increasingly more expensive. You have to be blind not to see the gouging on the Hobbit minis.

You're not blind are you?

Bad comparison, testify. Just some points:

a) A XBox 360 is capable of more than just gaming.

b) Same goes for the tv.

c) You don't need to buy another XBox, another Widescreen TV etc. for multiplayer (most of the time).

Video game prices did not rise by a lot, they have been really stable across all the years (despite them certainly being shorter, but that's another issue) whereas GW went HOLYBEDSHEET (hidden pun) through the roof with their price increases...as our ever-spinning friend already pointed out.

Zoned wrote:

So all in all ~$732 before tax.

That's still...quite a lot. When I got into WM/H, i bought a Starter box, a can of Primer, a paint set and some metals (it turned out all my old GW paints had dried out due to storage conditions), a brush, three units with an UA and a couple of solos. I didn't really need the rulebook due to the Quick Start Rules in the box and the cards. In modern prices, that would have cost me around 350 bucks, and that was in the Mk1 meta when Infantrymachine was king, with a model-intensive army, and I couldn't use two of the jacks in the basic set. I painted the whole shebang up and played in a beginner's 1-list tourney with it three months later. Placed second and had tons of fun. That's what got me into wargaming again. For an additional 150 bucks, I could, and did, seriously play in tournaments.

When I got into Infinity two years ago, I bought a starter box and four blisters plus the rulebook. Turns out I could have saved myself the trouble of buying the rulebook, but all told it came to around 200 bucks in modern prices. A lot of effort was needed to get hold of decent terrain for the game, but I was still well into it for perhaps 300 bucks if you include the paints I would have to buy if I was a newbie.

This year's Dropzone Commander bundle cost me around 300 dollars including the rulebook (minus paints, rulers, etc)

I don't think I have spent 300 dollars so far on Spartan Games stuff and I have oodles of miniatures for Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars.

I could definitely see a cost almost twice the most expensive startup experience (counting the figure case as optional) I have had balk me at buying when I was on a budget as I was back in 2006-2007.

 Ugavine wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Eilif wrote:
WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.

WOTC isn't stupid. They know when they've got a good product, and aren't going to make dramatic changes to the game and risk killing that product

Really? They managed to kill D&D Miniatures by totally changing it - twice!
They messed up Star Wars Miniatures, Heroscape and D&D.

As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it.

That's why I hope for them to be bought by WOTC. They have enough money to afford the purchase, but they know the gaming industry well enough to avoid damaging the game and make legitimate improvements.

WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.

Agreed, WOTC made Dnd look bad, and I thought that game would NEVER die.

What DnD? I still consider Pathfinder to be the actual D&D...

/e: Darn, off topic.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.

It's a good thing the US has exactly the same culture and population density as the UK, then.

It's a good thing the US isn't the be all and end all of everything, then.

If USers need more feeding from the teat before they can walk then fine. We only come with our own perspectives to the table, you also bring being a smart arse it would appear. It all adds to Dakkas many coloured tapestry.

I consider Forgotten Realms to be the true DnD setting, and that was ruined by WOTC in the last edition. I agree that if you are looking for a saviour tobring back the fun to GW, WOTC are not it.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

I have two full armies (plus one BFG fleet) and I don't think I've spent $1500 total even including paints.

Backfire wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

I have two full armies (plus one BFG fleet) and I don't think I've spent $1500 total even including paints.

Spent about 200-250€ (~300$) for my Necron army at 1850 points. So yeah, 1500$ is WAY over the top for most armies. IG might be close(r) to that though.

Find or start a local gaming club or hobby store, rather than your local GW. Us the looking for a game section of all the boards like Dakka to find players. Travel to just outside of your local area for tournaments to meet more people. There are lots of ways to grow your personal gaming group without worrying about the GW store and its crowd. Heck, branch out to one or two other game systems and you'll find a lot of cross over.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....

fething hell, what have you bought!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
D&D is very well known, and I doubt that you can say that WOTC is not selling it.

 Testify wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:
GW is killing itself with its own stores, hell the head trainer at GW north america walked into my local GW and said "there is too much a club house vibe here, you should kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base".

When I got into warhammer again recently, the "regulars" were seriously offputting. They just squat in games workshop like a jungle mammal flinging its gak at passers by. The staff do their best to cater to people who actually buy stuff, but the stores would undoubtidly be a lot more popular if they cleared out the regulars.

Tabletop wargames are a social hobby. You need other people to play with. If you can't find people who you like to play with, then your stint in the hobby will be a short one.

Stores play an important role in the social aspect of the hobby. They provide a place to play, as well as a place to meet people to play. From my own personal experience, when there is not a local store, I do not play or purchase product.

In the USA, local clubs are not common, and in many instances are not possible. There is no place for the club to meet. Just try asking a church to host a 40k club. Public schools around here would not host one.

Meeting people online to play a game is simply not an option for kids. It is much too dangerous. Seriously, would you invite a stranger who you met online to your house to play a game?

Kicking regulars out of FLGS kills the community. Without a community there are few people to play and the store dies. There is nothing sadder than an empty game store. (Maybe this is why GW is changing their stores around. Their stores are empty, so they want to appear like everything is normal so they do not devote space to play.)

spaceelf wrote:
Tabletop wargames are a social hobby. You need other people to play with. If you can't find people who you like to play with, then your stint in the hobby will be a short one.

Stores play an important role in the social aspect of the hobby. They provide a place to play, as well as a place to meet people to play. From my own personal experience, when there is not a local store, I do not play or purchase product.

I already have friends thanks, and I have no desire to play 40k with the average player no offense like.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Testify... honestly. GW is expensive, and increasingly more expensive. You have to be blind not to see the gouging on the Hobbit minis.

You're not blind are you?

I don't know what "gouging" is but as I've said, if you can't afford life's little luxuries then don't buy them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Bad comparison, testify. Just some points:

a) A XBox 360 is capable of more than just gaming.

b) Same goes for the tv.

c) You don't need to buy another XBox, another Widescreen TV etc. for multiplayer (most of the time).

Video game prices did not rise by a lot, they have been really stable across all the years (despite them certainly being shorter, but that's another issue) whereas GW went HOLYBEDSHEET (hidden pun) through the roof with their price increases...as our ever-spinning friend already pointed out.

40k lasts a hell of a lot longer and is much less likely to get you bored. Most people will get through a £45 game way before they even paint £45 of minatures, let alone game with them.

The only real advantage a console has over 40k is the ease of playing with other people. If I were living on my own i'd never consider getting a console over 40k, whereas if I lived with someone (or had friends round a lot) I'd probably get a console.

 Testify wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Testify... honestly. GW is expensive, and increasingly more expensive. You have to be blind not to see the gouging on the Hobbit minis.

You're not blind are you?

I don't know what "gouging" is but as I've said, if you can't afford life's little luxuries then don't buy them.

I hear this gakky answer frequently. It's usually touted by children who don't actually work for a living, perhaps you are a child living with your parents? I think this may well be the case given that you've never heard of price gouging?

I'll give you the same answer I've given this glib nonsense in the past.

Objecting to something being priced over it's perceived worth is not equal to be priced out of the hobby. Being able to afford something is not the same as deciding that a company is elevating it's prices cynically.

And your comparison to a gaming console or television or restored WW2 tank or cocaine habit are not as relevant as this:

Compare like for like miniatures with Mantic, Wagames Factory, Warlord Games et al.

So, Games Workshop plastic chaos marauders: $2.19 each. Warlord Games plastic ancient britons: $1.00 each. Wargames Factory plastic celt warband warriors: $0.62 each.

That's a decidedly fairer and more logical comparison than 'an army and the extra stuff you need' vs 'stock car racing'...

"Like for like" miniatures with Mantic, Wargames Factory, Warlord games et al does not take into account the "brand label" or the widespread availability in brick and mortar storefronts.

Pending the outcome of the whole CH v. GW case, there's still a perception by GW and their fanbase that only GW can create "plastic Chaos marauders" since the concept 'belongs' to GW.
There's no such protection for "ancient Britons/Celts", just like there is no such protection for WWII American infantry in 15mm scale if depicting them as historically accurate.

Edit note:
I'm not saying it justifies the prices, before someone jumps in and starts with the "white knight" garbage. I'm simply saying that "like for like" is a great theoretical, but it cannot necessarily be applied with ease.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Like for like" miniatures with Mantic, Wargames Factory, Warlord games et al does not take into account the "brand label" or the widespread availability in brick and mortar storefronts.

Pending the outcome of the whole CH v. GW case, there's still a perception by GW and their fanbase that only GW can create "plastic Chaos marauders" since the concept 'belongs' to GW.
There's no such protection for "ancient Britons/Celts", just like there is no such protection for WWII American infantry in 15mm scale if depicting them as historically accurate.

Edit note:
I'm not saying it justifies the prices, before someone jumps in and starts with the "white knight" garbage. I'm simply saying that "like for like" is a great theoretical, but it cannot necessarily be applied with ease.

Kan...

It also doesn't take into account the far greater distribution, sales and in house production facilities that GW possess, nor their greater buying power as a far larger corporation. As the 'big fish' we could expect their prices to be the most competitive.

And it's a far better comparison than was being used prior to my post...

Bad examples don't excuse bad examples, MGS!

And while the points you raise are valid, so is the point that GW's rather hefty catalog of models and their status as a PLC prevents them from changing their sculpts that often.

Unless it's Space Marines. Because Space Marines sell like crack cocaine.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Bad examples don't excuse bad examples, MGS!

And while the points you raise are valid, so is the point that GW's rather hefty catalog of models and their status as a PLC prevents them from changing their sculpts that often.

Unless it's Space Marines. Because Space Marines sell like crack cocaine.

They are not bad examples Kanluwen, comparing miniatures with miniatures from other companies is a far and valid comparison. Adding in factors like brick and mortar stores is a nonsense, especially given that in many of them you can no longer game in them and their purpose is now entirely driven by the sale, not providing an gaming facility.

And what the hell does PLC status and changing sculpts have to do with their prices? Not changes sculpts should keep the prices down as there is even less R&D/design involved.

 Testify wrote:

40k lasts a hell of a lot longer and is much less likely to get you bored. Most people will get through a £45 game way before they even paint £45 of minatures, let alone game with them.

The only real advantage a console has over 40k is the ease of playing with other people. If I were living on my own i'd never consider getting a console over 40k, whereas if I lived with someone (or had friends round a lot) I'd probably get a console.

I absolutely hate painting miniatures with a passion. It's one of the main reasons why I play Necrons - they're easy to paint. I am a general, not an artist. If I trusted Chinese companies, I'd send my miniatures in and let them be painted by Chinese kids for a few bucks. It's that much that I hate painting. I love converting models, but the main reason I play is...playing. And painting suuuuuuuuuuucks. I'd not even paint stuff if I got paid for it. Furthermore...good games last for a good 20-50 hours. Not that CoD single player crap, but RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Knights of the Old Republic etc.

You need to be aware of the fact that modern games mostly rely on the multiplayer part as well...I am looking at about 400 hours of DotA 2...and I paid 0$. Baldur's Gate collection is ...30€? KOTOR collection is 15€ for 75+ hours. Skyrim...Fallout...my brother plays a lot of Black Ops 3. Currenty looking at 100+ hours for 60€. So much for value comparisons

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Bad examples don't excuse bad examples, MGS!

And while the points you raise are valid, so is the point that GW's rather hefty catalog of models and their status as a PLC prevents them from changing their sculpts that often.

Unless it's Space Marines. Because Space Marines sell like crack cocaine.

They are not bad examples Kanluwen, comparing miniatures with miniatures from other companies is a far and valid comparison. Adding in factors like brick and mortar stores is a nonsense, especially given that in many of them you can no longer game in them and their purpose is now entirely driven by the sale, not providing an gaming facility.

I didn't say strictly GW's B&M shops. Should have clarified, that's my bad.

It is rare to find an independent shop that does not stock GW's products here in the US. It is even more rare to find one which does not have some kind of active GW community, whether it is Specialist Games or 40k/Fantasy(usually 40k though).
It is only recently that a shop I've been frequented began to stock Mantic's products. The reason being that prior to Warpath's "Corporation" line, there was no interest. The same with their "Kings of War" line and the Elves+Dwarves. The Undead would have sold, but stocking an entire range just to sell one particular boxed set is not really feasible for many independents.

And what the hell does PLC status and changing sculpts have to do with their prices? Not changes sculpts should keep the prices down as there is even less R&D/design involved.

PLC status means that they have a "responsibility" to their stockholders before the customers.
Changing sculpts has to do with prices because inevitably, in any price based discussion people point towards the older models which the player base is being charged an arm and a leg for.

The Chaos Marauders plastics are a good example of that. In the grand scheme of things, they are rather pants sculpts. When they came out that was a different story--but they, like many other plastic kits, have not aged well.