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Getting back into 40k since I am near done with school. I would like to keep running my blob squad and russes.

From what rules I have read so far my Russes pretty much stay the same.

But I am wondering about my blob squads and how they fair up now in close combat with CC being changed a little as well as being able to do challenges.

Doesn't this make it a lot easier to kill the commissar holding the group together? Or am I not totally understanding the rules for this?

Blob squads are terrible now. The whole reason they worked was that the 5th edition wound allocation rules let you always take your casualties from the meatshields at the back of the squad while the power weapons did all the killing. In 6th you take casualties from the front, so if your power weapons are engaged in combat and doing anything useful they're going to be cut down before they can swing. Meanwhile taking casualties from the front slows down your advance across the table into assault range, while the random occasional precise shot from a bolt pistol can kill the commissar and make the squad worthless (or more expensive if you take multiple commissars to reduce the risk).

Yeah, the loss of by-unit cover, the requirement of taking casualties from the front and no longer properly hidden commissars basically ended blobs, amongst several other reasons. The shooty kind of blobs can still do okay, but power blobs as we knew them are dead.

Of course, once we get to this point, it really becomes dubious why one would bother with blobs at all. MSU infantry platoons with a standard gives you more scoring units in a more scoring unit friendly rules edition, and speedbumps have always been better than blobs on the defense. Better to just save the points and not bother with the commissars at all.

Ironically enough, though, you're starting to see an increase in the number of blobs being played now that space marines can take infantry platoons as allies. This strikes me as a fad, though.

Unless you're lucky enough to be able to win the right few games of 40k in a row required to place well in tournaments, they're probably not going to be doing very much for you any more.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, the loss of by-unit cover,

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. Blobs have such a huge footprint (especially if you spread them out enough to avoid being massacred by template weapons) that it's almost impossible to give every model cover, so your opponent can just focus fire on the ones that don't have cover and remove 20-30 models with no saves.

Ironically enough, though, you're starting to see an increase in the number of blobs being played now that space marines can take infantry platoons as allies.

Yeah, it's just a fad, driven by tournaments using table quarters as a mission objective, since it favors large durable infantry units that can maximize the surviving point total you have on the table. Blob squads are great for that, since they're hard to kill and if even a single model survives you get credit for having an entire squad still in the table quarter. If you play book-style objectives without that particular house rule then the value of a no-upgrade blob squad in a marine army becomes effectively zero.

I don't know how to build blobs, but as a BA player, I have found blobs easier to deal with in 6th.

This is mainly due to wound allocation. Every guy I kill "pushes" the blob further back. This is actually a system that makes some kind of realistic sense. Sorta.

At any rate, I think the Guard can do much nastier things than blobs. I mean, just look at how many Chimera hulls and Valkyrie hulls a guard list can bring at 2K points! Granteed, you have to build and paint it, but I figured most Guard players know the score on that.

I'd say mechanized Guard is a pretty elite army, especially since shooting >> assault now.

If You're going to try and make them work, they're very much a go big or go home thing now. The little 20-30 man blobs of 5th cant cut it anymore. If you're deadset on running them, they need axes or maces, and 30-40 man blobs. Lord commissar doesn't hurt either. I've used them, and I have made them work to a degree, but the amount of points you spend to make them good makes it where you wont want them in anything but friendly games.

Of course, you can use allies to give them a more durable character and abilities like and they shall know no fear, but then you're not playing IG, youre playing sw/ig, ba/ig, etc.

So yeah tl;dr, you can probably make em work in friendly games, but anything even remotely competitive means you're gonna have a bad time.

I love your signatures, MrMoustaffa. Especially the dice one. In 5th, the Guard once forced my Blood Angels to take 103 armor saves in one turn. I didn't win :\

Regrettably, blob requires a very precise list-building; namely the inclusion of the following:

-Space Wolf IC (Grants Prescience, ATSKNF, 24" psychic denial, and Counter attack)

-40+ guys (As has been said, any less and they won't do enough to be worth it)

-Lascannons (With prescience, 4+ Lascannons is the best expression of dakka we can offer.)

-Plasma/Melta (Anything weaker is wasting prescience, and prescious special weapon slots)

-Aegis Defense Line (Will ensure the entire blob has cover, along with whatever tanks/artillery you have behind it. The aegis being good as it is has lent much more value to putting camo nets on tanks in 6th; something to consider.)



So basically, yes, you can still run a blob, but a very specific blob. Granted, the above blob comp. performs amazingly and is the core of my tournament-successful army, but it is very specific. Basically just sits there for 3-4 turns firing Lascannons and Plasma, gets charged, and kills or tarpits whatever charges them. Prescience and Counter attack is beautiful on a 40 man blob.

Sadly, Commissars are now pretty much useless comparatively, and power weapons on sergeants are a waste of points for guys that will just get wasted in Challenges anyways.

Good news is that if you plop in a vox, the blob can go to ground behind the Aegis for a 2+ cover save, then get back up the very next turn with "Get Back into the Fight".

Ailaros has run an outflanking Al'Rahem blob, but it seems to have performed less than stellar, so as of now, a gunline blob is your best bet.

For whatever reason there is a DakkaDakka consensus that power blobs are dead. This is not the case and they are doing fine in tournament-winning armies-- they benefit greatly from the new Allies, psychic powers, character, and power weapon rules and are still a unit that many will have trouble dealing with.

You do have to play smart with them now instead of just charging and hoping the opponent didn't take the right weapons, but they are definitely worth it. The main difference is that blobs are now a unit rather than an entire composition-- if you only take power blobs you will be unlikely to have the correct support elements and will get chewed up. However, a power blob in the right army can be extremely effective.

While a bit disheartening to hear. That was what I had figured from going over the new rules.

I hate to give up on an army I came to really Love. But blobs were at the core of it.

However.. Is the option to run lots of armor and guardsmen on foot still an option in some form or another?

With only one mission being all about kill points. Does that mean there is a return in the option for the ten man guardsman squads?

Etched In Pride wrote:


However.. Is the option to run lots of armor and guardsmen on foot still an option in some form or another?

That's the only way to do it; problem is outside of an Aegis they will get hit by every blast available and promptly wrecked. Blobs are now relegated to backfield holding and shooting.

With only one mission being all about kill points. Does that mean there is a return in the option for the ten man guardsman squads?

Noooo. Chimera Vets, yes. Otherwise they're free KP's, have poor leadership, and just in general are weak.

So what your getting at is if I would want to run my guardsmen on foot.. They are still in blobs..They are now geared more towards shooting more so then getting into CC?

Yes, unless you want to go for psychic power-based resilience, likely via allied Marine Librarians or Rune Priests of some sort and perhaps a Primaris Psyker to boot.

Alright thanks for the insight. I'll try getting a list together soon. Seems like it will be back to a bit like how I ran things in 4th.

 Peregrine wrote:
Blob squads are terrible now.

I don't see why the consensus is so negative. Al'rahem can put a 50 man blob with power weapons (who don't necessarily have to be at the front of the combat, just far enough forward to get 2" in) and melta guns in the backfield where absolutely nobody wants a 50 man blob of anything. Attach Uriah Jacobus with Sisters Allies and the entire blob gets +1 Attack, Rerolls to hit in close combat and Feel no Pain. Etc, etc, etc. Sure it's not that hard to deny a T3 unit's Feel no Pain, but when they do get it - it makes a HUGE difference.

There is an infinite number of allied combinations and strategies that can make power blobs in general excellent choices. Just the other day I played a 2k per player (4k total) doubles game with my Chaos Space Marines and my brother's Imperial Guard versus two Necron players. We won the game in turn 4 with power blobs marching up the field and outflanking with feel no pain and massive numbers of attacks, supported by tons of firepower from russes and heavy weapon teams, easily swamping Necron units in shooting AND close combat.

GameFreak975 wrote:
(who don't necessarily have to be at the front of the combat, just far enough forward to get 2" in)

Have you ever seen combat with IG? You will easily take enough casualties to wipe out the front row, the next row, and probably a few more while you're at it. If your sergeants are within 2" they'll be dead before they can swing.

and melta guns in the backfield.

What does Al'rahem have to do with a blob squad? You can take an outflanking element with melta guns without taking a full powerblob.

There is an infinite number of allied combinations and strategies that can make power blobs in general excellent choices.

There really isn't. You might be able to find a few limited situations where they can "work" (though less effectively than the alternatives), but they can't do the awesome things they did in 5th, and in an all-comers list they have too many drawbacks to be viable.

Just the other day I played a 2k per player (4k total) doubles game

Great, so you played the game way beyond the point size it's intended to be played. I don't know every weird thing that does to game balance, but it's not a normal game and you shouldn't apply anything you learn from it to real 40k.

I'm sorry..."real 40k?"

Who determines the point level that 40k should be played at? You? Tournaments that have nothing to do with the rulebook written by Games Workshop in the slightest?

Yes I've seen combat with IG. Who are you charging that kills upwards of 20 guardsmen in a single initiative phase? Sounds like bad strategy to me.

And I mentioned Al'rahem because he can show up with his platoon, absolutely nuke tanks or infantry with mass amounts of firepower, and still move even further to be in a better position for next turn.

Just because the internet says that blobs are dead, doesn't mean they are dead. Suddenly they take casualties from the front line and the whole sky is falling down.

GameFreak975 wrote:
I'm sorry..."real 40k?"

As in playing in the 1000-2000 point range. The game is not designed to function at 4000 points per side, so you can't apply lessons from a broken 4000 point game to a standard 1-2000 point game.

Who determines the point level that 40k should be played at?

The people who create 40k. It's designed to work best in the 1-2000 point range, with skirmish scenarios below 1000 points and Apocalypse above 2000-2500 points.

Yes I've seen combat with IG. Who are you charging that kills upwards of 20 guardsmen in a single initiative phase? Sounds like bad strategy to me.

Who said anything about 20+ guardsmen? It doesn't take 20+ kills to start reaching far enough into a unit to threaten the power weapons.

And I mentioned Al'rahem because he can show up with his platoon, absolutely nuke tanks or infantry with mass amounts of firepower, and still move even further to be in a better position for next turn.

But again, what does this have to do with power blobs? Using Al'rahem to deliver melta is a strategy with potential, but it's an entirely separate subject.

Just because the internet says that blobs are dead, doesn't mean they are dead. Suddenly they take casualties from the front line and the whole sky is falling down.

The whole reason blobs worked in 5th was that you didn't take casualties from the front. You could have power weapons doing all the killing, and enough meatshields that you'd get several rounds of combat before they finally died. If you remove casualties from the front you negate the entire wound allocation system that the power blob depended on.

 Peregrine wrote:

GameFreak975 wrote:
I'm sorry..."real 40k?"

As in playing in the 1000-2000 point range. The game is not designed to function at 4000 points per side, so you can't apply lessons from a broken 4000 point game to a standard 1-2000 point game.

Who determines the point level that 40k should be played at?

The people who create 40k. It's designed to work best in the 1-2000 point range, with skirmish scenarios below 1000 points and Apocalypse above 2000-2500 points.

Pg. 108, Rulebook, What Points Limit?: "...Larger games take proportionately longer, and you might expect a game of 4,000 points or more to take the entire day - perfect for a rainy Sunday!"

Sounds like they designed the game for any points level you want to play at...

I still run blobs to great effect. I have 1 that sits back and consists of 3 infantry squads, 3 autocannons and a commissar. Now if your smart and you get FRRSRF on any blob it will light units up. This unit alone dropped 2 daemon princes in 2 separate turns obviously. Then I have another squad that advances and has 3 infantry squads, melta bombs and power axes on the sarges and this squad alos has a commissar with a power axe. I also have some independent infantry squads with lascannon.

But from my view blobs in CC arent as good as they used to be but aren't terrible. You may want to take a priest to improve combat but Ive never used one myself personally, and you obviously still need a commissar.

On the other hand a shooty blob is fantastic! With so many guardsmen its a waste to fire at vehicles as all those shots go to a waste so Whatever heavy weapons you give make sure they also you arent relying on them to do a specific role...so if your army lacks anti tank and your relying on this blob with lascannons in it to fire at tanks then those infantry are usually wasted in doing nothing but taking wound for the lascannons, which isnt a terrible idea but once then enemy is in range either Bring it down if its a monstrous creature or FRFSRF if its anything else.

Blobs have their roles and you have to use them right for them to be effective but thats pretty much every unit in the game, everything has its role in what it does and you should specialize that unit in its role.

Just drop it guys...

Anyway, yeah blobs are pretty dead unless they are massive blobs. That seems to be the only way to run them and work now, 40-50 man blobs and the like hahaha.

Shove so many bodies at them the wound allocation can't stop you in time

GameFreak975 wrote:
Pg. 108, Rulebook, What Points Limit?: "...Larger games take proportionately longer, and you might expect a game of 4,000 points or more to take the entire day - perfect for a rainy Sunday!"

That's just a token marketing statement saying "buy more models! Play all day!". In reality if you look at how the game works, with the FOC, table sizes, etc, you'll see that everything fits together best in the 1-2000 point range, battle reports/studio armies/etc are all in that range, etc. Playing a 4000 point game is way outside that design concept, you can do it as an occasional thing, but don't expect anything you experience there to be relevant to the 1-2000 point games that everyone else is playing.

Plus there's always the Apocalypse book, which clearly states that standard 40k ends at 3000 points and anything larger is Apocalypse, with a comment describing an "average" standard army as being 1500-2000 points.

Al'Rahem + Creed + Uriah Jacobus + Min Priest.
You get 60+ guys who outflank, and gives them Fearless, Furious Charge, +1 Attack, re-roll 1's and Feel no Pain.


Melee guard can work, you just need to pull out all the tricks.

-Matt

 Peregrine wrote:

GameFreak975 wrote:
Pg. 108, Rulebook, What Points Limit?: "...Larger games take proportionately longer, and you might expect a game of 4,000 points or more to take the entire day - perfect for a rainy Sunday!"

That's just a token marketing statement saying "buy more models! Play all day!". In reality if you look at how the game works, with the FOC, table sizes, etc, you'll see that everything fits together best in the 1-2000 point range, battle reports/studio armies/etc are all in that range, etc. Playing a 4000 point game is way outside that design concept, you can do it as an occasional thing, but don't expect anything you experience there to be relevant to the 1-2000 point games that everyone else is playing.

Plus there's always the Apocalypse book, which clearly states that standard 40k ends at 3000 points and anything larger is Apocalypse, with a comment describing an "average" standard army as being 1500-2000 points.

Last I checked Apocalypse hasn't been updated for quite some time now.

But regardless, how about this example then:

Playing against my brother in a 2,000 point game, he took power blobs, yarrick and a host of other options that everyone says is dead. He then proceeded to steamroll most of my units with well over 100 fearless attacks with furious charge, rerolling to hit, feel no pain from jacobus (like I mentioned earlier) and yarrick out front sucking wounds up with his force field.

Again, tons of strategies. Tons of options. Where your casualties come from makes no difference if you play intelligently. While they're attempting to whittle down your blobs of guard, you can blast them to pieces with heavy weapons, tanks and fliers.

GameFreak975 wrote:
Playing against my brother in a 2,000 point game, he took power blobs, yarrick and a host of other options that everyone says is dead. He then proceeded to steamroll most of my units with well over 100 fearless attacks with furious charge, rerolling to hit, feel no pain from jacobus (like I mentioned earlier) and yarrick out front sucking wounds up with his force field.

So let me get this straight: he invested a stupid amount of points into a single unit, you failed to understand that the solution is to ignore the death star and feed it garbage units for a couple turns while dealing with the rest of the army, and you think this is a good argument that the unit is effective?

 Peregrine wrote:

GameFreak975 wrote:
Playing against my brother in a 2,000 point game, he took power blobs, yarrick and a host of other options that everyone says is dead. He then proceeded to steamroll most of my units with well over 100 fearless attacks with furious charge, rerolling to hit, feel no pain from jacobus (like I mentioned earlier) and yarrick out front sucking wounds up with his force field.

So let me get this straight: he invested a stupid amount of points into a single unit, you failed to understand that the solution is to ignore the death star and feed it garbage units for a couple turns while dealing with the rest of the army, and you think this is a good argument that the unit is effective?

It wasn't a death star, his entire army was made up of blobs of men with special weapons. Who should I have focused on? 50-man blob #1 or 50-man blob #2? Perhaps 50-man blob #3?

Why do you insist on being correct? The fact of the matter is that this game is not as static as you would claim it is. Some say they're bad, some say they're good. They can get destroyed easily, they can also dish out some serious hurt pretty easily.

 Peregrine wrote:

GameFreak975 wrote:
Pg. 108, Rulebook, What Points Limit?: "...Larger games take proportionately longer, and you might expect a game of 4,000 points or more to take the entire day - perfect for a rainy Sunday!"

That's just a token marketing statement saying "buy more models! Play all day!". In reality if you look at how the game works, with the FOC, table sizes, etc, you'll see that everything fits together best in the 1-2000 point range, battle reports/studio armies/etc are all in that range, etc. Playing a 4000 point game is way outside that design concept, you can do it as an occasional thing, but don't expect anything you experience there to be relevant to the 1-2000 point games that everyone else is playing.

With the double Force Org at 2000pts I think it's fair that it will fit fine @ 4k.

Single Force Org does get filled up quite well at 1999+1 though

Dark angels/Azreal in a blobb works pretty good, 51 bodies with a 4+ invulnerable can be pretty interesting. Take the Dark angels as the primary and take a Deathwing(SS/TH) and you can get some pretty good use out of the blobb by just ramming it up the center as a mobile road block (this can be really funny when you realize guardsmen are very nearly dying less than terminators).

Still the power blobb is pretty easy to mitigate for a unit that will eat at least 400 or so pts to make effective. You have to build the list around the blobb to actually make it a semi reliable strategy.

Etched In Pride wrote:So what your getting at is if I would want to run my guardsmen on foot.. They are still in blobs..They are now geared more towards shooting more so then getting into CC?

Ignoring the ridiculous squabbling (though Peregrine is right, beyond 2000 points, balance and gameplay start to warp and strategy tends to fly out the window.) yes, blobs are pretty much big shooting units now.

Kingsley wrote:Yes, unless you want to go for psychic power-based resilience, likely via allied Marine Librarians or Rune Priests of some sort and perhaps a Primaris Psyker to boot.

Logically, you should have this as well. A blob is mediocre and incredibly vulnerable without a Rune Priest in it. With one, they gain massive staying power. No reason not to have one as blob guard (aside from petty distaste for the ally system.)

GameFreak975 wrote:
It wasn't a death star, his entire army was made up of blobs of men with special weapons. Who should I have focused on? 50-man blob #1 or 50-man blob #2? Perhaps 50-man blob #3?

Whichever 50-man blob doesn't have 300+ points of characters in it. The fact that Yarrick actually did something besides get ignored all game proves that you were focusing on the wrong targets and didn't really understand how to handle the list.

Why do you insist on being correct?

Because I am. Assault blobs are a relic of 5th edition. Let them rest in peace.