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 sebster wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
This is due to our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines.
in the case of militant Islam outbreeding the whites is not only a phenomena its a stated agenda.

And one of the beautiful things of our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines is that it wins. Every time. People look at it, compare it to their culture, and they change sides. They change sides so fast that within a generation there's barely anyone left with the old beliefs.

Thats optimistic, I wish I could believe that. However we are kowtowing to militant Islam. there are Sharia Courts in the UK now, admitedly they are 'volunteer' but the voluntary aspect might not apply to women who in Asian culture dont have a say. Actually while the rot is not reaching outside Islam in islam it is holding ground.
The fact that apostates might get beaten or even killed helps.

 sebster wrote:

It's happened with every generation of migrants that's come in to a developed country. And every generation people have fussed and worried and gotten all scared that this generation of migrants is different and this really is the group that will sneakily take over. And yet it never happens.

This would be true if Islam was stood up to. However it is not, in Islamised areas ground is largely taken not shared.

 sebster wrote:

The people who are breeding less are the people with jobs, who aren't even averaging 2.4 kids anymore. They simply can't afford to.

You're confusing "can't afford" and "don't want to". They have more money, they could afford more children if that was what they wanted more than anything else. But instead they're choosing other things, bigger houses, nicer cars, more holidays, instead of third and fourth children.

Thats actually a solid example of no affording something. Cant afford doesnt mean the money isn't there even if all assets were set aside, unless its something you are addicted to in which case cant afford literally means no money left. It nominally means that it cant be purchased when other priorities are considered, reponsibility can be taken into account.

Personally I cannot abide those French Huguenot super markets.

Being young and foolish (well, just the latter part) I happened to get into a relationship, and fall in love (yes.. even Squats can fall in love!) with a girl while I was living and working abroad.

This year the law in the UK changed so that you have to earning a pretty good wage (19,000GBP+) to be able to claim residency for your partner. Up until a few weeks ago I was in the position of having saved a lot of money abroad, with a regular job, living with my parents and my partner having health insurance. So, not drawing on the state for anything at all, yet she was ineligible for a UK visa because I wasn't earning the required wage.

So, to be with the person I loved (..quiet at the back there! ) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.

I can understand why the laws have changed, but they've been implemented in such a directionless and indiscriminate way that they've ended up essentially sumo-slapping legitimate citizens out of the country. And I wonder how many other people have suffered in a similar manner - UK citizens earning a decent wage, yet forced to move abroad or else split from their partners when such a thing isn't possible.

I've been really lucky since and managed to land a good enough job, so hopefully once we have swum through the reams of bureaucracy (which you would not believe), paid for the expensive visas and been through numerous checks (and probings) my GF will finally be able to get residency here.

But just thought I would write about what it's like to be effected by these harsh new immigration laws, and how they have no doubt broken quite a few hearts and, without being overly dramatic, destroyed a fair few lives. I'm going to write to my MP about it regardless, but it does seem a shame that the government can't strike some kind of happy medium between labour (opening the floodgates) and the Conservatives (who have politicked it to the extreme, and turned the UK into a practical fortress to anyone not riding a bike down the channel tunnel or rowing across the channel).

 Albatross wrote:

It isn't the same. You, along, with Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, and Americans, come from an anglophone country that shares many cultural values with the United Kingdom. That isn't the same as coming from Albania or Somalia. The ease of integration for someone from an anglophone country vs. someone who isn't, isn't really comparable. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem people have with immigration isn't generally people entering the country as economic migrants or asylum-seekers per se, it's the fact that so many of you have so little interest in true integration. I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country. We're just here for the money.' That's what annoys people. It cuts both ways though - I witnessed the British, Irish, Germans and Dutch doing exactly the same thing when I lived in Spain. I, on the other hand, shopped in Spanish shops, ate in Spanish restaurants, drank Spanish beer in Spanish bars, and made an effort to speak Spanish everywhere apart from inside my apartment. That's good immigration.

This.

Exalted for truth. If you're not going to assimilate, it winds people up. Simple as. There's a reason one of the areas in my city is nicknamed "Little Warsaw".

In my experience Poles are far quicker to assimilate than Asianic/Arabs. It's possible to go from cradle to secondary school without knowing a single white person in many English cities.

It's also...offputting that certain immigrant groups tend to stick together. Asians at work tend to speak foreign languages to each other (I've no idea which, or why they all seem to know the same language, presumably they're all from the same area of Pakistan) and stick together, similarly the English (black and white it should be noticed) tend to by and large ignore the non-English when they're not actually working with them.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

It isn't the same. You, along, with Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, and Americans, come from an anglophone country that shares many cultural values with the United Kingdom. That isn't the same as coming from Albania or Somalia. The ease of integration for someone from an anglophone country vs. someone who isn't, isn't really comparable. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem people have with immigration isn't generally people entering the country as economic migrants or asylum-seekers per se, it's the fact that so many of you have so little interest in true integration. I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country. We're just here for the money.' That's what annoys people. It cuts both ways though - I witnessed the British, Irish, Germans and Dutch doing exactly the same thing when I lived in Spain. I, on the other hand, shopped in Spanish shops, ate in Spanish restaurants, drank Spanish beer in Spanish bars, and made an effort to speak Spanish everywhere apart from inside my apartment. That's good immigration.

This.

Exalted for truth. If you're not going to assimilate, it winds people up. Simple as. There's a reason one of the areas in my city is nicknamed "Little Warsaw".

Yes, because nothing ever goes wrong with assimilation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation_of_Native_Americans). Also isn't part of the point of immigration is for the immigrants to introduce new experiences and cultures to people and not to leave that stuff at

home with them. Having things like Chinatown gives people with similar backgrounds something to relate to and even those who claim that these things are bad because they're stuck experiencing one culture are just as likely to be doing the same thing statistically people tend to hang

around people who are similar economically, racially, in terms of attractiveness, interests, religion, etc (it's familiarity that brings people together) so are you really that different than those Poles hanging out at the Polish supermarket?

 Albatross wrote:
I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country.

If Polish people want to eat Polish food, speak the Polish language, and hang out with Polish people, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so just because they live somewhere other than Poland. If you don't like it, then go hang out somewhere where you can eat British food (if you're into culinary masochism), speak English, and hang out with other British people. And if it turns out that there is nowhere left that you can go without Polish influence following you, then guess what! The culture's changed. Move on.



And honestly, if you're that easily offended you're just looking for things to be upset at. It's a bit silly.

Steve steveson wrote:
Whilst i don't agree with much of the stated ideas about how bad imigration is and "this country is going to hell" and I agree with the rest of your post I have to take issue with this. Int he UK housing is a major problem. Young people (i.e. under 40) are often unable to afford a home big enough to raise a family. I am in my mid 30s, between myself and my wife we both eurn well over the national average wage yet we can only afford to live in a 1 bed flat. Hopefully soon we will, after 6 years of very carefull saving, be able to move to a 2 bed terrace house. We own an 11 year old car and have not been on holiday since we went away for a week 6 years ago for our honeymoon. That is the only holiday we have ever had together because we are saving for a house big enough to have at least one child.

At that point we may have one child. By the time we can afford to move to anywhere larger we will be past the age where it is safe or practical to have another child.

Thanks for your story, it was a point well made, and I accept the correction to my previous argument. And good on you for saving to build something better for your future family, my wife and I are doing the same.

I an not someone who thinks we should throw people out ont he street and they do not deserve decent housing, but that we need to build enough and stop silly reasons for blocking new building.

Oh, when it comes to complaining about stupid planning regulations and the interference of busy body nitwits in developing housing, you've got a friend in me I've worked at local councils, and seen developments get put up that'd expand the local economy, bring much needed revenue into council and be broadly wanted, only for the process to get delayed by some activist group who drag it out just long enough for the developer to pull up stakes and move elsewhere. It's infuriating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steve steveson wrote:
Imagrants on the whole are highly economicly active, and the idea of "just comming here for the benefits" is utter rubbish, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the law and the system.

Absolutely. It shows an ignorance not only of the system (where most every benefit is denied to people on migration visas) but also of immigrants. People don't pick up everything and move to another country so they can claim benefits. They do it because they want to make something of themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albatross wrote:
I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland.

Yeah, if you want to chase better economic opportunities that means your honour bound to never eat peroghis again.

I mean, I get the idea about integration and that people should be encouraged to become part of the greater community, but that they shouldn't shop at speciality stores that offer the food they've grown up with? That's just nutty. If we'd really insisted on that we never would have gotten Chinese, Indian, Italian, Mexican restaraunts etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
Thats optimistic, I wish I could believe that. However we are kowtowing to militant Islam. there are Sharia Courts in the UK now, admitedly they are 'volunteer' but the voluntary aspect might not apply to women who in Asian culture dont have a say. Actually while the rot is not reaching outside Islam in islam it is holding ground.
The fact that apostates might get beaten or even killed helps.

I've come around to your line of thinking on Sharia Courts, largely because of an argument you put forward on this forum - that family court matters should not be decided in these courts because the children can't agree to hand over their legal protections.

But that doesn't remove the greater trend shown in every migrant pattern - in each generation the immigrants take on more and more of the cultural values of the host nation. The claims you're making here are the exact same claims made about Chinese, Italian, Greek and every other wave of immigrants, and every time those arguments were shown to be wrong.

Thats actually a solid example of no affording something. Cant afford doesnt mean the money isn't there even if all assets were set aside, unless its something you are addicted to in which case cant afford literally means no money left. It nominally means that it cant be purchased when other priorities are considered, reponsibility can be taken into account.

And as such 'can't afford' has to be seen in terms of changing priorities of middle class people, not as evidence that things are actually harder than they had been.

 Testify wrote:
It's possible to go from cradle to secondary school without knowing a single white person in many English cities

Citation needed

Also isn't part of the point of immigration is for the immigrants to introduce new experiences and cultures to people and not to leave that stuff at

home with them.

You're mistaking the Canadian view of immigration for the world view.

Just thought I'ld let you know.

Also the result of the Native Americans in North America is probably the biggest possible anti-immigrant argument one could make. Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.

But that doesn't remove the greater trend shown in every migrant pattern - in each generation the immigrants take on more and more of the cultural values of the host nation. The claims you're making here are the exact same claims made about Chinese, Italian, Greek and every other wave of immigrants, and every time those arguments were shown to be wrong.

I think I should point out that in Canada we have insular religious groups here that emigrated well over a hundred some odd years ago and still haven't assimilated. Actually they've grown exponentially, a side effect of the largest family sizes in Canada mixed with first world health care. They're called Hutterites. Though they are very similar to old order Mennonite, who have also seen only an increase in total population all the while maintaining a significantly divergent culture. It's a wonder what isolation, faith, and a refusal to change can do to keep one's cultural island afloat amid a sea of otherness.

The same could also be said of Jews from the time of the Diaspora, though in their case it's even more extreme.

 Ratbarf wrote:


Also the result of the Native Americans in North America is probably the biggest possible anti-immigrant argument one could make. Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.

I not sure that's really comparable to modern immigration cause what the British and the French colonists do was pretty much destroy the Native culture through disease, superior technology and assimilation I don't think modern immigration is causing a major spread of illnesses, warfare

and forcing there culture on others, although I could be wrong.

warfare and forcing there culture on others

Well there was that bus bombing some years ago, and the bringing in of Sharia Law would seem to be doing that.

 Ratbarf wrote:

warfare and forcing there culture on others

Well there was that bus bombing some years ago, and the bringing in of Sharia Law would seem to be doing that.

But is that norm for immigration though? I mean if the UK is getting loads of foreigners that are causing nothing but trouble then you would have a point but modern immigration is nowhere as horrible as the assimilation of Native culture and in fact I would assume most modern immigrants

are well behaving, law-abiding citizens.

I think that's true for pretty much every nation Cheese. It's the nutters that stand out as with all things.

 Ratbarf wrote:
Also the result of the Native Americans in North America is probably the biggest possible anti-immigrant argument one could make. Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.

Similar state of affairs for the Mongolians in Inner Mongolia and the Tibetans in Tibet, both becoming minorities in their own country through Chinese migration.

That said, what those two examples share in common with the Native Americans in North America is that their land was physically occupied by the outside group, it was an actual invasion. Whereas in Britain you're talking about immigration per the desires of the British government - they're bringing in as many as suits the interests of the country.

I think I should point out that in Canada we have insular religious groups here that emigrated well over a hundred some odd years ago and still haven't assimilated. Actually they've grown exponentially, a side effect of the largest family sizes in Canada mixed with first world health care. They're called Hutterites. Though they are very similar to old order Mennonite, who have also seen only an increase in total population all the while maintaining a significantly divergent culture. It's a wonder what isolation, faith, and a refusal to change can do to keep one's cultural island afloat amid a sea of otherness.

Yeah, but like the Amish and other similar groups, they're destined to have small numbers relative to the greater population. One of the quirks of highly insular groups is that they need to be attached to a larger, tolerant and cosmopolitan population to be viable.

Oh, and populations always grow exponentially. Exponential just means the current value determines the future growth.

 Pacific wrote:
So, to be with the person I loved (..quiet at the back there! ) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.

Someone I know had a similar problem with a Mexican girl who had been on a work or training visa in the UK of some sort. She couldn't get it renewed so in the end they had to put her up in Germany and he had to travel there regularly. They got married fairly quickly (not in the UK, not sure whether it was Germany or Mexico though) so the problem became moot after that, though she had to stay in Germany for a bit longer whilst all the paperwork was filled out.

What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.

Check out this page for clearer info

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/361122/Should-foreigners-get-free-treatment-on-the-NHS-

 Pacific wrote:
Being young and foolish (well, just the latter part) I happened to get into a relationship, and fall in love (yes.. even Squats can fall in love!) with a girl while I was living and working abroad.

This year the law in the UK changed so that you have to earning a pretty good wage (19,000GBP+) to be able to claim residency for your partner. Up until a few weeks ago I was in the position of having saved a lot of money abroad, with a regular job, living with my parents and my partner having health insurance. So, not drawing on the state for anything at all, yet she was ineligible for a UK visa because I wasn't earning the required wage.

So, to be with the person I loved (..quiet at the back there! ) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.

I can understand why the laws have changed, but they've been implemented in such a directionless and indiscriminate way that they've ended up essentially sumo-slapping legitimate citizens out of the country. And I wonder how many other people have suffered in a similar manner - UK citizens earning a decent wage, yet forced to move abroad or else split from their partners when such a thing isn't possible.

I've been really lucky since and managed to land a good enough job, so hopefully once we have swum through the reams of bureaucracy (which you would not believe), paid for the expensive visas and been through numerous checks (and probings) my GF will finally be able to get residency here.

But just thought I would write about what it's like to be effected by these harsh new immigration laws, and how they have no doubt broken quite a few hearts and, without being overly dramatic, destroyed a fair few lives. I'm going to write to my MP about it regardless, but it does seem a shame that the government can't strike some kind of happy medium between labour (opening the floodgates) and the Conservatives (who have politicked it to the extreme, and turned the UK into a practical fortress to anyone not riding a bike down the channel tunnel or rowing across the channel).

Fly to Mexico, wade across the Rio Grande and say hello to the promised land.

 phantommaster wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.

Check out this page for clearer info

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/361122/Should-foreigners-get-free-treatment-on-the-NHS-

I like how they (some of the commentators) extend "foreigners" to "immigrants" whether they're legal or not. Because goddess forbid that SOB working his tail off and paying taxes has access to the national health care system right?

Working in a very mixed London school puts me in touch with a lot of children that have migrated here, often recently. I have to say that often their similarities are greater than their differences. Things like their skin colour I actually don't notice any longer despite coming from a nearly exclusively white background. Kids of all backgrounds all share a similar british school culture, good and bad aspects, their slang is similar, their interests are similar. They aren't all Muslims and Jews that stay apart and go to mosques at weekends and refuse to integrate. Their parents might be traditional and reflects things that people like to criticise immigrants for, but their children seem to quickly acclimatise, and they are the next generation.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Personally I cannot abide those French Huguenot super markets.

Is that were Hoagies came from?

 phantommaster wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.

Check out this page for clearer info

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/361122/Should-foreigners-get-free-treatment-on-the-NHS-

You do realize that immigrants are paying for your health care there as well (through taxes of course), right? That's how socialized healthcare works everyone chips in a bit. Immigrants aren't taking your jobs it's that they are willing to work harder than you and also why are you complaining

about them taking school and living in houses they are just as entitled to education and shelter as anyone else. Seriously you're coming across as ethnocentric, although you may have a point with immigrants getting fist dibs on healthcare there shouldn't be favouritism when it comes to

medical attention (except for emergencies of course).

 Cheesecat wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.

Check out this page for clearer info

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/361122/Should-foreigners-get-free-treatment-on-the-NHS-

You do realize that immigrants are paying for your health care there as well (through taxes of course), right? That's how socialized healthcare works everyone chips in a bit. Immigrants aren't taking your jobs it's that they are willing to work harder than you and also why are you complaining

about them taking school and living in houses they are just as entitled to education and shelter as anyone else. Seriously you're coming across as ethnocentric, although you may have a point with immigrants getting fist dibs on healthcare there shouldn't be favouritism when it comes to

medical attention (except for emergencies of course).

I think the complaint is illegals and other nonpayers being able to skip the line and get health care in England free of charge, and then legal immigrants got muddled in by more or less accident.

Oh OK, that makes sense I can see why people would dislike that (including myself).

Asylum Seekers are the ones who get medical treatment AFAIK, you know, people fleeing warzones and so on. There's certainly people abusing that, but the system is still there for good and benevolent reasons.

I actually think the british government is incredibly benevolent towards the people of the UK. The attitudes I encountered that were negative were mostly from not so bright people in the slum area I lived in.

 rubiksnoob wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.

If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.

Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.

Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.

The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.

Grimtuff, you have really got bugger all evidence that you're getting "the worse end of it".

 Da Boss wrote:
Grimtuff, you have really got bugger all evidence that you're getting "the worse end of it".

Other than years of anecdotal evidence? No. But having lived in this country for 28 years I think I have quite an informed opinion of how we've changed for the worse.