the Unforgiven and the Fallen. who are really the loyalists?

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**1hadhq**

Doctadeth wrote:
1hadhq wrote:

Source?
Like, please quote it....

Or if thats too much to ask, return to the real fluff.
Because its no secret what the watchers are not. IIRC they are not " guilt and angst "....

5th edition DA codex, in Azraels entry.
And HH primarchs as well hints at it.

Am sorry but I have to insist on the quote...

And I'd like to see a 5th ed DA codex, too.

**Galdos**

Manchu wrote:
DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?
Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

I want to play

What if the Emperor, was actually Tzeentch

**Shadox**

Galdos wrote:
Manchu wrote:
DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?
Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

I want to play

What if the Emperor, was actually Tzeentch

The Souldrinkers would like to speak with you

**Ratbarf**

So not wanting to wade through four pages when I already know the answer, which is, Dun de de dun! They both are.

Pretty much the Lion betrayed the Calibanites because he new that the world was very heavily tainted with Chaos, the population was not originally exposed that much however due to the presence of the beasts killing anyone who got too close to the tainted areas. When the beasts were killed the taint was able to spread the general population. Though in the books they blame this upon the introduction of Terrans onto Caliban. Since they had such a very heavy Chaos taint Luthor knew that the world would be ordered exterminatus, so Luthor and the rest of the Calibanite Dark Angels who were with him betrayed their oaths to the Emperor and broke off from the Imperium. During this time however Luthor himself did fall to Chaos with the help of Cypher.

It's all in Fallen Angels.

**KamikazeCanuck**

I thought they rebelled because The Imperium was crapifying their planet.

**Manchu**

I thought they Rene,led because they were jealous of the DA on assignment with the Lion and the rest was excuses and Chaos.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Manchu wrote:
I thought they Rene,led because they were jealous of the DA on assignment with the Lion and the rest was excuses and Chaos.

Yes but also because Caliban was being figuratively destroyed by the Imperium. The Imperium does strip mine worlds, tithe them and destroy local culture.

**nolzur**

Omegus wrote:
Don't forget the Ultramarines, who were also en route, and who coordinated the entire counter-offensive during the Heresy, and the Scouring in the aftermath.

We all know Rowboat Girlyman is the true traitor. He skipped all the major battles, and then took charge during the aftermath and made-up a bunch of rules to further weaken all the other legions.

Sounds a bit like Neutral Evil to me. Wait until the rest of the party is weakened, come in, take over, take the spoils for yourself, split them up and make rules to ensure you stay on top.

**Galdos**

Not to mention he trained his men on how to fight the loyalist legions. When asked about it he said because he knew some would resist his rule

**washout77**

Ok wait so....this conversation has done nothing but make me confused hahaha

So....both think they are the loyalists, and the other is the traitor, but we as the 3rd party know things about them they don't so what we get is a really screwed up story with 9000 different interpretations and different fluff paths. Sounds pretty typical hahahaha

**Kanluwen**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Manchu wrote:
I thought they Rene,led because they were jealous of the DA on assignment with the Lion and the rest was excuses and Chaos.

Yes but also because Caliban was being figuratively destroyed by the Imperium. The Imperium does strip mine worlds, tithe them and destroy local culture.

Not really.

The "turning point" was when a group of Terrans (who seemingly have ties to Horus) enacted a ritual in Caliban that opened up a Warp gate. Luther used that as an excuse to recede from the Imperium.

**Crimson**

Hruotland wrote:

Yes, to the outside. They SEEM to have no doubts. Yet all this only begins to make sense if you postulate the one person/faction they have to persuade of their loyalty to the emperor are they themselves. The loyalists and the fallen have split long ago, and they hunt the Fallen down with all needs. If they were sure of their own and their primarch's loyalty they would not have to make so much hush-hush. They could openly declare "parts of our legion went the wrong path, but see, we do everything to undo them, for we, the rest, are loyal and steadfast as should be". Their enormous efforts to hide everything about it are a big confession there at least MIGHT be something wrong with themselves. The Fallen are a threat to their own loyalty, and not just because they fell. They mirror something of the loyalists what they fear. otherwise they just could declare them outcasts and demand a chance to prove their unshaken loyalty.

Bravo! I applaud you, good sir! This is an exellent analysis of the nature of Dark Angels.

The best thing about 40K fluff is that it allows these sort of nuances; that you can never be quite sure what is a fact and what is a myth, and that it indeed is all matter of perspective. This is a marvellous richness that I would prefer to be cherished instead of to be squished until every fact is boringly set into stone.

And what I remember of Manchu's previous contributions on different subjects, he does not deal well with nuances, he wants absolutes.

**Muzwa**

So....both think they are the loyalists, and the other is the traitor, but we as the 3rd party know things about them they don't so what we get is a really screwed up story with 9000 different interpretations and different fluff paths.

This seems to sum up why there is really no definitive answer to the OP, I'd say read the novels for yourself and make up your own mind

**Kanluwen**

Crimson wrote:
Hruotland wrote:

Yes, to the outside. They SEEM to have no doubts. Yet all this only begins to make sense if you postulate the one person/faction they have to persuade of their loyalty to the emperor are they themselves. The loyalists and the fallen have split long ago, and they hunt the Fallen down with all needs. If they were sure of their own and their primarch's loyalty they would not have to make so much hush-hush. They could openly declare "parts of our legion went the wrong path, but see, we do everything to undo them, for we, the rest, are loyal and steadfast as should be". Their enormous efforts to hide everything about it are a big confession there at least MIGHT be something wrong with themselves. The Fallen are a threat to their own loyalty, and not just because they fell. They mirror something of the loyalists what they fear. otherwise they just could declare them outcasts and demand a chance to prove their unshaken loyalty.

Bravo! I applaud you, good sir! This is an excellent analysis of the nature of Dark Angels.

No. It's not. At one point it might have been, but that point is gone now.

The best thing about 40K fluff is that it allows these sort of nuances; that you can never be quite sure what is a fact and what is a myth, and that it indeed is all matter of perspective. This is a marvellous richness that I would prefer to be cherished instead of to be squished until every fact is boringly set into stone.

And what I remember of Manchu's previous contributions on different subjects, he does not deal well with nuances, he wants absolutes.

Actually, there are "matters of perspective" and "absolutes".

The "absolutes" are that the Fallen are traitors. They broke faith with the Imperium and Luther knows it. There's even hints that he was planning to do it before the whole incident with the Warp Beasts happened.
The Loyalists were not.

The "matters of perspective" come into play when you start looking at the perspective of the various members of the Legion who sided with Luther. Did they all know what they were doing or did they all just blindly follow Luther?

**KamikazeCanuck**

There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

**Frecklesonfire**

Lion = todays standards of pure evil.

Luther = generically good guy, a swell man, gets turned chaos.

**Manchu**

Crimson wrote:
And what I remember of Manchu's previous contributions on different subjects, he does not deal well with nuances, he wants absolutes.

You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

**Beaviz81**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
Lion = todays standards of pure evil.

Luther = generically good guy, a swell man, gets turned chaos.

I know the Lion ain't nice, but pure evil? Wow. That is quite the interpretation. How is he evil? I mean I still fancy my interpretation of him being good, but not nice. And Luther. Well Lionel and Lex Luther comes to mind of Smallville-fame. That's how I have taken on him.

**Manchu**

I think "good but not nice" is a great way to describe all the loyalist Primarchs. [EDIT: other than Vulkan, who was I guess good and nice] It's a useful phrase, that.

**Beaviz81**

Manchu wrote:
I think "good but not nice" is a great way to describe all the loyalist Primarchs. [EDIT: other than Vulkan, who was I guess good and nice] It's a useful phrase, that.

Yeah I sort of get a bit flabbergasted myself when people claim a loyal primarch is evil. That sort of makes no sense for me. The obviously evil and crazy ones went for Chaos. The rest is firmly in our minds at least in good ain't nice-territory.

**Kanluwen**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

**AnomanderRake**

Nobody knows. That's kind of the point...

**DarthMarko**

What about this?

Spoiler:

**Manchu**

Marines fighting Marines is hardly the stuff of HH type treachery. Witness how many of the rogue chapters that fought with Lugft Huron did penance and are in good standing.

**captain collius**

Doctadeth wrote:
Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

The watchers appeared before The fall by a long shot. They themselves also said they have exsisted long before the primarch arrived on caliban.

**TimmyTheNerd**

Of all the Unforgiven and the Fallen, there is only one that I'm not 100% sure of what side he's on, and that's Cypher.

**Crimson**

Manchu wrote:
You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

Thing is, you take the fluff as facts, while some of us see it as propaganda and myths.

**Kanluwen**

Crimson wrote:
Manchu wrote:
You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

Thing is, you take the fluff as facts, while some of us see it as propaganda and myths.

Thing is, you do not understand the difference between the different kinds of narratives.

Some pieces of the background are what is referred to as "omniscient narratives". These pieces are definitive absolutes. They are facts of the setting.
Some pieces of the background are published in what can be referred to as "first-person narratives" or "third-person narratives". These are not necessarily facts of the setting, but they can be.
These kinds of bits are what the propaganda and myths of the Imperium/Eldar/whoever.

**Beaviz81**

Crimson wrote:
Manchu wrote:
You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

Thing is, you take the fluff as facts, while some of us see it as propaganda and myths.

Lets see. The sources of the Dark Angels having turned against the light of the Emperor are the Fallen ones. I mean, you basically is walking blindly into Hitler's (who was a very horrible person) statement: "It's easier to fall victim to a big lie than a small one."

And being ruthless like dispatching Black Templars who came in their way doesn't mean Chaos worship. That's being secretive, and they knew they could get away with it with their secret intact. Again good is not nice comes to mind (which seems to reach a Memetic Mutation when I write the quote).

**KamikazeCanuck**

Kanluwen wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

It doesn't matter if it's old.

Obviously, books about military campaigns are going to focus more on Fallen who are actively anti-throne. Arkos was an Alpha Legionaire who might have known something about The Fallen. There was no proof of that but the DAs just assume that Chaos Marines are always a good lead on The Fallen info which they are.

Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different