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 Phazael wrote:
They are not now, nor ever were the most powerful army in the game. IG and SW still dominate just about everything under the known sun, without even getting into the ally shennanigans. Crons were a better CC and shooting army in 5th and the gap between them and GK has increased. GK are about on the same level as Blood Angels and the faq boosted DA/BK builds out there. I would even argue that a well made Vulkan or Pedro list is on the same footing as GK right now. The one truely undercosted part of the entire GK book is Coteaz.

To be fair, there was a time where Necrons did not appear yet and the GKs were at their full 5th edition power.
No matter how 5crons looked against Gray5's there was a time when Gray Knights were above 4crons.
Rest of your post looks at GKs in 6th, it 5th they were definitely higher on the food chain than they are now.

As for the OP, I think I say: NO, they were not nerfed. They were instead brought to the lever they were supposed to be in the beginning.
After all the: "They are a 6th edition codex, you can't judge them in 5th.". "first 6th edition codex, they will probably will be more balanced in next edition", "...next edition...", "..you can't, sixth edition..." it's now time to say:
'They were not nerfed, their bonus just expired'.

 Tomten wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

And they die to Demolishers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

They WERE broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomten wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

And they die to Demolishers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

They WERE broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

Aha! I see


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But GK was pretty nerfed because their force weapons are AP3.

Yeah and overall lack of ap2 weapons

 pizzaguardian wrote:


i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

If you're playing as GK's and you lose to Flamer/Screamer spam than it simply means that;
a) You're playing a Termiewing list which Flamer/Screamer spam is designed to specifically counter! (so how does it feel to be on the recieving end of a tailored hard-counter?!)

b) You're not deploying properly.

c) You're ignoring what should be one of your main Troops choices.

d) Your opponent went first, played it super aggressively and got lucky on their scatter rolls and thus flatened you.



If you go first and cast Warp Quake, you win. Simple as that. One fully sread out 10-man squad easily covers an area of 22"x30" of automatic mishap! That gives you easily two solid turns of shooting to kill the first wave or else whittle it down to just a few survivors.
The Screamers fly-by slashing attacks can be all but ignored with properly deploying your units to leave no space for the Daemons to be legally placed after they pass over you.

If you can't beat Flamer/Screamer spam, then maybe your the one doing something wrong since it's a poor-man's gimmick list that has numerous easy-to-find counters. Grey Knights especially should just keep laughing and go about killing it piecemeal.

Does "nerfed" mean they were brought down in power, but yet despite that they are still one of the stronger armies you can play in 40K, because they were so powerful in the first place?

If that's what you mean, then yes, they were nerfed.

Fortitude and Force Halberds were nerfed.

It's become clear to me that people's definition of nerfed/ buffed is all over the place.

Current "power" ranking as far as I can tell from playing as and against just about everything so far including wierd allies all around has been:

tops:

Necrons
SW (sometimes with IG)
IG (sometimes with sw)
Tau + eldar if you allow forgeworld Tau stuff like tetras with 3+ cover all over the place and baracudas.

Top of mid tier:
Gk
Chaos (if you actually just use only good units like spawn (gawd can't believe I just said that after bashing them for all of 5th edition) and drakes with oblits and cheap marines)
Tyrnids (psyker spam and flying tyrants are boss, and no, it's not easy to force weapon them to death as it is not that easy statistically to hit/wound/pass ldr with SitW especially with crazy iron arm, play them in 6th, don't apply 5th rules)

Mid mid tier:
sisters (only players that play these are old old vets so they tend to give me a run for my money no matter what the codex I think)
SM (various varieties from vanilla to salamanders, got great TAC builds with bikes but I've been hard pressed to find the truely good players that play this army, only get to watch front line gaming so some exist)
BA
Daemons (I have the flying circus along with flamers/screamers and still feel that they are a good mid tier but still too random for top tier army)
DE
Eldar (often with some crazy shadowfield rerolling going on with DE allies)
Tau if you don't let them have forge world stuff. still 3+ cover hammerheads are annoying as hell, can be worse if you go for old kroot builds

Low:
black templars (who really just need a codex update, nothing wrong with them really otherwise)
dark angels (who will probably be mid or upper mid tier after their codex updates but is again held back by old old codex)

 Phazael wrote:
I said they were better than GK in 5th and even better than them in 6th. Therefor, my statement does not conflict with yours.

I meant that Necrons are better in 6th ed than they were in 5th

In comparison to 5th edition :
It is important to note the GK are still a top-tier codex. Their rockstars for their cost, but they are not the 'win button' they were in 5th edition.

Force weapons are AP3
While they still kill MEQ dead, the GK have a solid counter of any terminator. A SW squad can now take all the force weapon hits on their terminator WG with the squad, allowing them to absorb the hits.

FNP now works against force weapons. This allows BA squads to have a 1/3 chance of surviving the hits. In 5th edition, BA assault squads always lost vs GK, now they have a chance.


Rapid Fire weapons shoot max range on the move
While SBs have not gotten any worse, rapid fire weapons have gotten better. This means that the comparison difference between the bolter and storm bolter is not as big as it once was.

Storm bolters are still the superior weapon, of course, but the margin is not as great as it once was.


Vehicles are nurfed
Hull points and vehicles getting hit on a 3+ by krak gernades has made razorspam a lot less effective. While razorspam can still work in a lot of cases, its also quite possible to have tac marines just assault the tanks and tear them open.

Also there are less vehicles on the board, which means that the OP psydreads are finding less of a role. Since there are less vehicles, they are not as much of an advantage any more over the STR 7 riflemen dreads. Both wound most models on a 2+


More foot armies
This means more people are bringing anti-infantry weapons. This is bad news for GK, as they are very expensive point for point. The massive increase of PGs and bolters that were seeing in today's meta has put a pinch on the GK.


Wound Allocation Magic Gone
Before a unit of paladins could just stand in the middle of the board and let Draigo take every hit, then wound allocate across all the paladins. This is no longer the case, as you must take from the closest model. Sure, you can place Draigo in front, but its pretty easy to work around him.

are PCs good vs palaadins?

PCs = Plasma Cannons? They're better than nothing but you'll want to hit them with S8+ so that you can instakill them.

 felixander wrote:
PCs = Plasma Cannons? They're better than nothing but you'll want to hit them with S8+ so that you can instakill them.

its not that easy to find weapons that have S8 and AP2 :(

I see you play IG. LR Demolishers, Demolition Charges, Lascannons, Meltaguns/Multis/cannons, and Medusa artillery.

As for Necrons you get Doomsday Rays... Those things will destroy anything, ESPECIALLY Paladins. Doomsday is another good option.

 felixander wrote:
I see you play IG. LR Demolishers, Demolition Charges, Lascannons, Meltaguns/Multis/cannons, and Medusa artillery.

As for Necrons you get Doomsday Rays... Those things will destroy anything, ESPECIALLY Paladins. Doomsday is another good option.

Those are good too kill paladins but either you have to get very close or you only kill one paladin.

Demolisher is well outside of charge range from the Paladins, Demo Charge via Marbo and/or SWS out of Vendetta are easily delivered, Lascannons don't need to be close, suicide MeltaVets (or via Vendetta), Medusa has some good range.

I didnt think of it that way because ive never played with IG.

 labmouse42 wrote:
In comparison to 5th edition :
It is important to note the GK are still a top-tier codex. Their rockstars for their cost, but they are not the 'win button' they were in 5th edition.

Force weapons are AP3
While they still kill MEQ dead, the GK have a solid counter of any terminator. A SW squad can now take all the force weapon hits on their terminator WG with the squad, allowing them to absorb the hits.

FNP now works against force weapons. This allows BA squads to have a 1/3 chance of surviving the hits. In 5th edition, BA assault squads always lost vs GK, now they have a chance.


Rapid Fire weapons shoot max range on the move
While SBs have not gotten any worse, rapid fire weapons have gotten better. This means that the comparison difference between the bolter and storm bolter is not as big as it once was.

Storm bolters are still the superior weapon, of course, but the margin is not as great as it once was.


Vehicles are nurfed
Hull points and vehicles getting hit on a 3+ by krak gernades has made razorspam a lot less effective. While razorspam can still work in a lot of cases, its also quite possible to have tac marines just assault the tanks and tear them open.

Also there are less vehicles on the board, which means that the OP psydreads are finding less of a role. Since there are less vehicles, they are not as much of an advantage any more over the STR 7 riflemen dreads. Both wound most models on a 2+


More foot armies
This means more people are bringing anti-infantry weapons. This is bad news for GK, as they are very expensive point for point. The massive increase of PGs and bolters that were seeing in today's meta has put a pinch on the GK.


Wound Allocation Magic Gone
Before a unit of paladins could just stand in the middle of the board and let Draigo take every hit, then wound allocate across all the paladins. This is no longer the case, as you must take from the closest model. Sure, you can place Draigo in front, but its pretty easy to work around him.

I just wanted to point out that, while you can take FNP against force weapons. You can't take FNP when Force is activated. FNP is not classified as a save, and force is applied "Immediately" when an unsaved wound is caused. Making the wounds insta death. FNP can not be used on insta death wounds.

Vindicare assassins are OP

 Tomten wrote:
Vindicare assassins are OP

How.

 Tomten wrote:
Vindicare assassins are OP

They are powerful but limited not OP

 Tomten wrote:
Vindicare assassins are OP

I'm surprised someone can say that with straight face. Vindicare were good in 5e and are pretty meh in 6e. Previously you could use them to snipe characters and IC's, both which get Look Out Sir! nowadays. Vindicares are also worthless against flyers and there are less vehicles around for them to kill. No, I wouldn't call Vindicare OP by any stretch, though he will ruin your day if you're fond of using Land Raiders or Monoliths.

As far as the original question goes: Grey Knights were nerfed relatively more than other armies were, but that brought them in line with other codexes and I'd consider GK to be in top tier with IG and SW . Obviously Necrons are the king of the 6e, but they were top tier codex in 5e, arguably as strong as GK were, and unlike GK, were buffed by the 5e->6e transition.

Labmouse covered most of the changes, but there are few important ones he missed:
* No more assaulting out of Rhinos/Razorbacks. This is one of the reasons people are moving from Purifiers to Strikes.
* Hull points changed Fortitude from being 'awesome' to merely 'ok'. Fortitude was hugely underpriced in 5e.

its just my opinion.

 Tomten wrote:
its just my opinion.

Opinions are fine, but when your opinion disagrees with established fact, it becomes just a false idea.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
its just my opinion.

Opinions are fine, but when your opinion disagrees with established fact, it becomes just a false idea.

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

 Tomten wrote:

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

Marbo is 65 points and can do the same.

A Lascannon +carrier is 25 points and can do the same.

A lone wolf with a meltabomb is 25 points and can do the same.

I don't get your logic, here.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

Marbo is 65 points and can do the same.

A Lascannon +carrier is 25 points and can do the same.

A lone wolf with a meltabomb is 25 points and can do the same.

I don't get your logic, here.

Exactly vindicares are only useful at hunting big targets against normal foot heavy armies thy really cannot live up to their billing.

Whats with all the short posts? It comes off as a tad rude In my opinion.

Yes GK took a slight nerf, Yes they are still top tier. They still hard counter hordes and trash most MEQ and TEQ units. Yes they still crumble under high volume of High Strength Shooting, such as Tau.

Explained.

All right then a vindicare isnt so OP


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But how exactly can marbo oneshot a land raider?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

Marbo is 65 points and can do the same.

A Lascannon +carrier is 25 points and can do the same.

A lone wolf with a meltabomb is 25 points and can do the same.

I don't get your logic, here.

Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

I'm not saying he's OP, definitely not as good as he was, BUT he is still good a VERSATILE.

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

 Kaldor wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

Some people (including TOs from 2 different tournies I've been too) consider it to be that it rolls 4d6 PLUS it's strength. They take the 4d6 to be rolled instead of a single d6 for armor pen. Either way the weapon also has rending giving it a small boost.

Note: I don't read it that way but my friends and the two aforementioned TOs do so I have decided to fall back on that, though personally I still dislike the ruling.