Are Grey Knights nerfed?

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**Tomten**

Gk are still expensive.

**AlmightyWalrus**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.

There is no such thing as a S8 psycannon.

**DarknessEternal**

Kaldor wrote:

Pfft. Draigowing is full of overpriced models that can't ever kill enough of the enemy to contest or claim enough objectives.

I admit that Draigowing is lackluster, but when was the last time you played a 6th edition game where contesting or claiming objectives mattered?

I haven't participated in a 6th edition game where one side isn't tabled in months.

**TheCaptain**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.

There is no such thing as a S8 psycannon.

Think he was referring to Psyflemen.

**Experiment 626**

The only people I've noticed who think GK's have been hugely nerfed by 6th edition, are those dumb

who think they can still play 5th ed style tactics and steamroll the opposition with little required effort.
Those who have woken up to the new edition and have been actively working to adapt their army/ies and their tactics have found that GK's are still top contenders, but they're no longer head-and-shoulders above everyone else like they were in 5th!

If Warp Quake is still present, (which I'm finding it's becoming more commonplace), then my Daemons for example are still pretty screwed... Coteaze lists still rank among the top, while GK's still have some insane hard-counters to specific lists.

**Tomten**

Do daemons stand a chance against GK?

**Kaldor**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Kaldor wrote:

Pfft. Draigowing is full of overpriced models that can't ever kill enough of the enemy to contest or claim enough objectives.

I admit that Draigowing is lackluster, but when was the last time you played a 6th edition game where contesting or claiming objectives mattered?

I haven't participated in a 6th edition game where one side isn't tabled in months.

Well, that's certainly not the case round these parts.

**daedalus**

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only people I've noticed who think GK's have been hugely nerfed by 6th edition, are those dumb who think they can still play 5th ed style tactics and steamroll the opposition with little required effort.
Those who have woken up to the new edition and have been actively working to adapt their army/ies and their tactics have found that GK's are still top contenders, but they're no longer head-and-shoulders above everyone else like they were in 5th!

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

If Warp Quake is still present, (which I'm finding it's becoming more commonplace), then my Daemons for example are still pretty screwed... Coteaze lists still rank among the top, while GK's still have some insane hard-counters to specific lists.

It's increase in commonality is directly caused by my above statement. It was not a good idea for them to give out such a power to both, the cheapest GK units, and the only GK unit capable of crossing the board turn 1.

On the bright side, you have CSM allies as an option now. Perhaps it's time to consider diversification. I have with my IG.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

I haven't participated in a 6th edition game where one side isn't tabled in months.

Yeah, I'm getting this a lot too. About 90% of our games have ended with someone ready to call it by the bottom of turn 2, and then it will play out to someone being tabled by 4-5 at the latest. In fact, last game I had, I lost because I tried to go for the Relic, not the table.

I'm thinking next time I play, I'm going to completely blow off objectives and just walk over my opponent. See how that works out.

**Tomten**

purifiers are still good

**DarknessEternal**

daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

**daedalus**

DarknessEternal wrote:
daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

They were good. I'm not sure if they were Paladin or Purifier spam good though. 5th ed MSU purifier spam was pretty mean, and the sea of netlist clones that plagued the Army List section for about a year seems to indicate that this was the prevailing list, at least for whatever version of the game the Internet plays.

Personally, I always liked Terminator spam in 5th ed, but then again, I like running underdog lists. Nowadays, I feel like you can't hide the important parts of a 5 man Terminator (or Purifier) squad well enough to be effective against decent counter-fire, and Paladins are weak-sauce compared with what they used to be.

**Tomten**

daedalus wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

They were good. I'm not sure if they were Paladin or Purifier spam good though. 5th ed MSU purifier spam was pretty mean, and the sea of netlist clones that plagued the Army List section for about a year seems to indicate that this was the prevailing list, at least for whatever version of the game the Internet plays.

Personally, I always liked Terminator spam in 5th ed, but then again, I like running underdog lists. Nowadays, I feel like you can't hide the important parts of a 5 man Terminator (or Purifier) squad well enough to be effective against decent counter-fire, and Paladins are weak-sauce compared with what they used to be.

Why are Paladins weaker now?

**daedalus**

Tomten wrote:
daedalus wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

They were good. I'm not sure if they were Paladin or Purifier spam good though. 5th ed MSU purifier spam was pretty mean, and the sea of netlist clones that plagued the Army List section for about a year seems to indicate that this was the prevailing list, at least for whatever version of the game the Internet plays.

Personally, I always liked Terminator spam in 5th ed, but then again, I like running underdog lists. Nowadays, I feel like you can't hide the important parts of a 5 man Terminator (or Purifier) squad well enough to be effective against decent counter-fire, and Paladins are weak-sauce compared with what they used to be.

Why are Paladins weaker now?

Well, they're not really weaker on paper, but I say this mostly because they closed the possibilities allowed with wound allocation. Now instead of being terminators that you practically HAVE to shut down with S8+, they're terminators that are slightly more annoying to kill with small arms and plasma fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To that point, consider that I have a plasma CCS. It's the high end of plasma fire, I realize, but bear with me. 9 plasma shots, with 6 of them hitting, and then 5 of them wounding. 2 Paladins are dead, compared with 0 Paladins dead.

Further, the only way they could have gotten close enough to cause this to happen is through transport, so you can assume they either had 12" movement with a Chimera, or gotten pretty much anywhere from a Valk. You better have hidden those psycannons impossibly well, otherwise odds are you lost at least one.

**Tomten**

Is Draigowing still good? You almost only have 2 Wound models and a 2+ save and a 5+ FNP and 5+ inv save.

**DarknessEternal**

No.

**captain collius**

DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

**Tomten**

captain collius wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Tomten wrote:
captain collius wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

You've forgotten the most used AP2 gun in the game IMO (Plasma Gun) Be it IOM or TAU plasma gets it done.

Of course this is me forgetting that Str8 was explicitly mentioned.
Also Lascannons are Str9, Railguns are Str10 ap1, think the Prism isn't 8/2 either (rusty with the elves though)

**pretre**

Plasma is S7. (S6 for Tau)

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

pretre wrote:
Plasma is S7. (S6 for Tau)

Somehow I managed not to read the Str 8 part of that ... my bad.

**Tomten**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Tomten wrote:
captain collius wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

You've forgotten the most used AP2 gun in the game IMO (Plasma Gun) Be it IOM or TAU plasma gets it done.

i just wrote down weapons which have at least S8 and can get it, and weapons with at least AP2.

**daedalus**

Melta guns come to mind as well, and those heavy tanks that SoB have.

**Tomten**

Devil dogs can do a nice job as well

**captain collius**

Tomten wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Tomten wrote:
captain collius wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8+ ap2- which there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

You've forgotten the most used AP2 gun in the game IMO (Plasma Gun) Be it IOM or TAU plasma gets it done.

i just wrote down weapons which have at least S8 and can get it, and weapons with at least AP2.

Emphasis mine. Also yes the humble plasma works quite well. (believe me I know) My point was simply meaant to be weapons like that only allow for 1 5+ save and take care of the two wounds in a way the plasma cannot.

**Tomten**

The medusa can do a good job also.

**Exergy**

Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

**Tomten**

Exergy wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

He has a 6+ FNP. how can he has 2+ cover?

**DeathReaper**

Tomten wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

He has a 6+ FNP. how can he has 2+ cover?

Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

**Tomten**

DeathReaper wrote:
Tomten wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

He has a 6+ FNP. how can he has 2+ cover?
Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

But then you have to take a techpriest if you want to have 2+ cover in a ruin.

**DeathReaper**

Tomten wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

But then you have to take a techpriest if you want to have 2+ cover in a ruin.

Correct, or just put out a fortification and have a 3+ base cover save.