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Zanderchief wrote:
So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

While I'm no expert on DA background I would think either the old school black color scheme from when they fell, or something of your own design as they would probably want to hide their true nature given the crazy bastards hunting them across the galaxy.

Zanderchief wrote:
So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

Well "The Fallen" occured before the chapter starting painting their armor green, so it would be pre-heresy colors. Black armor with red DA emblems. This bores me as they smack of BT. I am thinking of doing a new fallen, under the idea that Cypher made his way back to the rock and set Luther free. Luther and Cypher start a clandestine information campaign and some of the current Chapter feel betrayed by not being trusted with the Chapters "secret", so they become the new fallen. My colors Im thinking are current DA green scheme, but with a black almost flame pattern creeping up both legs. As if the armor is starting to turn. Also would make the robes a little "dirtier than they currently are. Or you could go Black armor red robes...that would look decent also

I'm wondering what squad from the DA codex is going to be their "Long Fang Missile-spam" unit? Maybe the Ravenwing bikes with TL plasma?

quote]Complaining before you've read the codex? Classic.

Crazyterran wrote:
WS5 Assault Terminators with Power Mauls. K.

Bikes with TL Plasma. Wonder how much they'll cost? I imagine 30~+ points each?

Does anyone know if the Death/Ravenwing Knights stay Elite/FA/Whatever if they are taken in a Raven/Deathwing army, or if they become troops, and are essentially Knights of the Inner Circle from Fantasy?

Then again, if their starter cost is only 15pts more than a standard Deathwing Squad >.>

Also, will Deathwing Terminators beable to take Lightning Claws and Cyclone Missile Launchers again? I missed that if they can.

It'll be interesting to see non-GK TEQ armies. As a vanilla marine, though, I'll be packing some Demolisher Cannons and Null Zone, just, you know. For fun.

Given the normal Deathwing are still Elites according to people with the White Dwarf, expect characters to only be able to unlock basic Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops, not the fancier versions, Knights will certainly be elites, Black Knights could go into elites or fast attack, but my guess is elites since it works so much better for a Ravenwing army.

Deathwing Terminators are very likely to be able to mix gear, one of the pictures on the front of the box appeared to be a Cyclone too, so it seems they not only can still take them, but they get one in the box set.

I'm guessing they didn't want Deathwing terminators to be troops as allies so they kept it as an unlock and it will be primary detachment only like Chaos

Zanderchief wrote:
So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

Really, there shouldn't be many if any fallen Ravenwing or Deathwing, the Ravenwing were originally formed from The Order, a group of knights from Caliban, and given the defenders left on Caliban that became the Fallen were almost entirely Terran born marines created under the guidance of the Emperor before the Great Crusade, it doesn't make sense to have Fallen Ravenwing.

Similarly, it was unlikely they would have had any Terminators stationed on Caliban, since Terminator Armour was developed during the Great Crusade by which time all new marines had their full suite of genetic enhancements, a number of which earlier marines lacked, and Terminator Armour could be presumed to be built with that in mind, thus once again, making it very unlikely any of the Terran Dark Angels would have been using it.

I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

Soulman wrote:
Complaining before you've read the codex? Classic.

I see people discussing potential strategies based on rumoured rules, not complaints.

Jumping the gun a bit early there, Mr. 3 Posts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

You know that they didn't just have Cataphractii-pattern Terminator armour during the Heresy, right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

---You know that they didn't just have Cataphractii-pattern Terminator armour during the Heresy, right?

Well, yeah. But I thought that there was some retconning going lately on that the "modern" version was the rarest during the Heresy? That's what I was going from.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

The Deathwing may not have used that title pre-heresy, but it's suggested in some of the fluff that the Dark Angels during the first founding specifically broke up their Terminator Specialists whatever name they were using, and assigned them in groups to the newly formed chapters and that doing so had to do with chapter secrets and the Terminators' roles as high ranking members, so there was a significant group of Terminator Specialists during the heresy, they already were part of some sort of inner circle (although it presumably served different ends than it does now, much like the Ravenwing had a very different purpose pre-heresy), and as I say, it's unlikely any of the marines left on Caliban who eventually became the fallen would have been members of this group.

What about DA's that fall after the heresy? Are they still the fallen?

I've never heard the term Fallen or Fallen Angels used to describe anything other than those present at the Fall of Caliban, but admittedly I've never heard any fluff dealing with the concept of Dark Angels going renegade in more modern times, and I imagine they would be viewed in much the same light, if not worse, than the Fallen, and possibly would share the label.

It still seems a stretch to me though that these specialist groups who have carefully been indoctrinated ever since they were in the scout company and dedicate themselves so wholly to hunting the Fallen that, even when serving in the Deathwatch they will often act on their chapter's will without consideration for how it will impact their Deathwatch mission, would be likely to turn traitor, let alone in any significant numbers.

It's no more fluffy than it is to have a group of "Fallen" Ultramarine terminators in your chaos force, lets put it that way.

Them models... Wow. I don't care what anyone says about the models but I'll have two of them flyers, a few bikes and perhaps a LS Vengeance even!

I've been waiting for this to come so I can play my Ravenwing army with a new book. I'm happy

the terminators look cool but the rest of it....meh

Im not a dark angels fan but if you like DA stuff then this will be the kind of stuff you will like.

Well no one is immune to chaos. No matter how selflishly and arrogantly you hunt them down. In fact that much time hunting and therefore in the presence of Chaos would give rise to a higher percentage wouldn't it? Anyway i think they all look pretty good (even the landspeeder - although admittedly it looks like its proportions are off - a very GW thing in general).
I am just not into DA's but would love some special rules for them if they go up against Chaos SMs that are fallen DA's.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
WS5 Assault Terminators with Power Mauls. K.

Bikes with TL Plasma. Wonder how much they'll cost? I imagine 30~+ points each?

Does anyone know if the Death/Ravenwing Knights stay Elite/FA/Whatever if they are taken in a Raven/Deathwing army, or if they become troops, and are essentially Knights of the Inner Circle from Fantasy?

Then again, if their starter cost is only 15pts more than a standard Deathwing Squad >.>

Also, will Deathwing Terminators beable to take Lightning Claws and Cyclone Missile Launchers again? I missed that if they can.

It'll be interesting to see non-GK TEQ armies. As a vanilla marine, though, I'll be packing some Demolisher Cannons and Null Zone, just, you know. For fun.

Given the normal Deathwing are still Elites according to people with the White Dwarf, expect characters to only be able to unlock basic Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops, not the fancier versions, Knights will certainly be elites, Black Knights could go into elites or fast attack, but my guess is elites since it works so much better for a Ravenwing army.

Deathwing Terminators are very likely to be able to mix gear, one of the pictures on the front of the box appeared to be a Cyclone too, so it seems they not only can still take them, but they get one in the box set.

Well, that's interesting.

Seems like they are going to cost the same / if not a little more than Normal Terminators, so maybe it'll balance out.

More worried about what the Ravenwing are going to be priced, specifically the Black Knights.

Guess if they are crazy under costed, It'll be an even better reason to bring Vindicators / S10. I can see them being 30-35pts a pop, though, depending on the rest of the wargear+special rules. If they get up to 40, well, then I guess they'll be about as attractive as Terminators. +1T or +1 Save, both will have a 5+ vs shooting.

Kind of can't wait to play against a variety of SM types again, though. Bikes and Terminator armies? Sounds fun.

As long as it's 'characters' that unlock various options and not 'special characters', I'll be happy. I'd like to do a Deathwing force lead by a Chaplain or a Libby, not always fething Belial.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As long as it's 'characters' that unlock various options and not 'special characters', I'll be happy. I'd like to do a Deathwing force lead by a Chaplain or a Libby, not always fething Belial.

I hope your right a captain/libi in termi armour unlocking death wing or on bike unlocking ravenwing would be nice would especially would love to use a Libby for the rerolls from divination

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As long as it's 'characters' that unlock various options and not 'special characters', I'll be happy. I'd like to do a Deathwing force lead by a Chaplain or a Libby, not always fething Belial.

Why would the Deathwing leave home in large numbers, but not take their Captain along?

Use your imagination Zwei.

Maybe Belial is leading the other 60 Deathwing in a different part of the battlefield, city, planet, warfront or he and the other Deathwing are destroying space hulks, boarding enemy ships in orbit or some other heroic conflict! Or maybe he's getting fitted with a new and shinier suit of TDA or he's on the Rock indoctrinating new members or helping guard or torture Fallen. (Or he's in the potty-even mighty Space Marine heroes need to catch up on their reading!)

Hmm

Isn't the point of the Deathwing outing themselves in full force on their own (rather than simply as a part of broader Dark Angels force) predicated on the idea that it's a rather serious, usually super 40K-X-files incident, one that would perhaps justify delaying the Captain's potty break or Space Hulk cleaning duty?

For all the rah-rah about how important and pivotal all-Deathwing armies are to the sacred uniqueness of the Dark Angels background, it seems odd to now apply this sacred formation to battles so mundane that the units Captain cannot even be bothered with.

So yeah, if Belial is off with 60 Deathwing.. that is the army that gets Deathwing as troops. The other 40 are out about as elite choices in regular Dark Angels forces. Or so it would seem.

Zanderchief wrote:
Well no one is immune to chaos.

Grey Knights and Tau would like to have a word with you about this tatement...

 nolzur wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
Well no one is immune to chaos.

Grey Knights and Tau would like to have a word with you about this tatement...

Um.. no. They don't. Neither have any immunity to Chaos.

Isn't the "Troops" section reserved for the reason/ purpose for the mission? Can't some of the Dark Angels most dangerous and trusted killers be the primary focus of a mission on their own: perhaps as equally important as the mission Belial leads but one he could entrust to, I don't know - another Inner Circle member like Sammael, Azrael, Asmodai or an Inner Circle member of MY creation? Dare to dream, Dark Angels!

Lionshammer wrote:
Isn't the "Troops" section reserved for the reason/ purpose for the mission? Can't some of the Dark Angels most dangerous and trusted killers be the primary focus of a mission on their own: perhaps as equally important as the mission Belial leads but one he could entrust to, I don't know - another Inner Circle member like Sammael, Azrael, Asmodai or an Inner Circle member of MY creation? Dare to dream, Dark Angels!

Sure.

Hey, by and large, I am 100% with Jervis Johnson in that the fewer restrictions there are, the better.

It's just such an oddly exotic and rare event (as per the standard fluff) that it hardly seems to be worth crying over to me.

And if you're into making your own fluff (shying away from the established), it seems odd to pick-up "established" fluff like Deathwing (or Dark Angels, or Space Marines), but then suddenly stop short of the character that completes the package in the "official" version.

On a separate note, I think that with some reworking, the LS Vengeance could make an excellent ride for the Master of the Ravenwing. The bathtub needs to go back into the seat where the gunner "should" sit, but the bigger hull would look cool and the rear turret could be the perfect place to put the force field generator that makes his Land Speeder so much harder!

I really do hope the Company Master gets a hard and just reworking because currently, he's a bit crap I must say. No options, nothing to make him cool, not even an option for TDA.... I'd love if he got revamped like the Blood Angels Captain and gained some unique piece of wargear or two.

At the points totals most games are played the Death Wing's uniqueness is hardly a factor. Fluffwise DW has an entire company of 100-150 TDAs to employ. But in 1500-2000 point games that buy's you what 20-30 bodies in a rounded force? Any chapter can field that many TDA and say "We pulled them together because it was our darkest hour!"....so really DW is not that unique unless you're talking about super huge points totals games.

Something that GW overlooked if they wanted to preserve the "We are Deathwing" esthetic would have been to limit TDA entries to 0-1 for the other armies. But that didn't happen so we're all going to have to live with it. Deathwing need to count as troops 100% of the time with no sort of unlocking. Having an uber Deathwing unit is a good idea. Mixing the Tactical and Assault aspects of the DW into single squads was truly an awesome divergence, but if any of the other chapters are unorthodox to do that as well it'd be the Space Wolves, as they do seem to have a "I'll use my favorite weapon....and screw you!" going on. Grey Knights with their Draigo wing I feel represent fully in 5th/6th what they did in their RT/2nd introduction (which was a squad of 5, 3 wound, Level 4 psykers for 2000 points taking 4 turns of moving or shooting every time it was their turn), they're more badass than DW but not as plentiful.

Anyways can't wait to see what I'm getting in this new codex. I'm in the middle of moving, so it's a great time to get all of my Dark Angel stuff out, dusted off, and ready to play.

 pretre wrote:
Well, I imagine the retailer in Denmark may be unhappy. Didn't they just enact a crazy strict policy on what happens if you sell early?

Apparently a six month ban on receiving GW stock