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 Krellnus wrote:
There is no problem with Belial, its just that some people don't want to play using the current master of the Deathwing and so they would like rules that would allow a generic company master to unlock them as troops to represent a previous (or future) Master of the Deathwing.

Isn't Belial's wargear inherited by the next Master of the Deathwing, though? If I recall correctly, his sword is a symbol of his station (and also the reason that allowing TH/SS and dual LC loadouts for him in the 4th edition codex was so stupid).

Some people want to have Chaplains and Libby's leading their DW force.

All DA successor chapters have an Inner Circle all TA equipped 1st company. Also according to the old fluff Azreal is not just the Chapter master of the DA he is Supreme GM over all DA successors. As part of the inner circle they are all required to have a TA first co. Belial only leads the original DA 1st company. Many people, myself included, play a successor chapter and wand to keep it that way. Belial did not even exist until the current codex by Jervis Johnson came out. Johnson made him up for some reason. In the previous codex’ all you had to do to play deathwing was take an HQ in terminator armour. I lot of veterans who have played DA for a long time don’t want to be forced to take a named character just to play an army that they have played for years. DW is a long time trait of DA, forcing us to take a special character to play that army is a little silly when GK can take all termies standard.

 Robbietobbie wrote:
It does prevent non-dw lists from taking scoring terminators which is probably good for balancing

That's prevented whether you restrict it to Belial or let other Characters do the same thing though, either way you are making it a deathwing list by fielding the necessary HQ.

And honestly, it's probably better for balance if troops are costed with their ability to hold objectives in mind, rather than being elites shoehorned into the troops slot where you are either overpaying for them when they are elite, or underpaying for them when they are troops.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Belial did not even exist until the current codex by Jervis Johnson came out.

While I get your point in him not existing as a special character, Belial appears on the DA OoB chart in Codex: Angels of Death from 2nd edition. Of course, this was back before his promotion from 3rd Company Master to Master of the Deathwing.

I have only one issue with the leaked codex...THERE IS NO ALL-SEEING EYE FOR THE MASTER IN LANDSPEEDER

Things seeming very quiet for the Green Dark angels, hopefully all the cool stuff won't be exclusively Death/Ravenwing.

The pa marines will be fine as.long as they are brought in line with marines codex, it will nice to use a tac squad that isn't 200 pts before a rhino is added lol

 Volkov wrote:
I have only one issue with the leaked codex...THERE IS NO ALL-SEEING EYE FOR THE MASTER IN LANDSPEEDER

Wait, the whole DA codex has leaked now?

 Volkov wrote:
I have only one issue with the leaked codex...THERE IS NO ALL-SEEING EYE FOR THE MASTER IN LANDSPEEDER

ok... and all-seeing eye is?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Volkov wrote:
I have only one issue with the leaked codex...THERE IS NO ALL-SEEING EYE FOR THE MASTER IN LANDSPEEDER

ok... and all-seeing eye is?

Old third edition rule, it basically grants twinlinked to a Ravenwing unit of your choice for each shooting phase (So any ravenwing could be granted it, it doesn't have to be the same one per each shooting phase), it also granted double night fight seeing distance.

So long as the Master of the Ravenwing was on the table anyways.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Some people want to have Chaplains and Libby's leading their DW force.

The purpose of the Chaplains and Librarians are not to lead, but to support and guide. Otherwise, what is the purpose of the Captains?

Captains can't always be present in a strike force, you know. And librarians/chaplains are higher in rank than veteran sergeants so...

And in the fluff there are examples of Libby's and Chaplains leading forces in lieu of Captains. It's not that far fetched.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Volkov wrote:
I have only one issue with the leaked codex...THERE IS NO ALL-SEEING EYE FOR THE MASTER IN LANDSPEEDER

ok... and all-seeing eye is?

Old third edition rule, it basically grants twinlinked to a Ravenwing unit of your choice for each shooting phase (So any ravenwing could be granted it, it doesn't have to be the same one per each shooting phase), it also granted double night fight seeing distance.

So long as the Master of the Ravenwing was on the table anyways.

Ya, and that was when you had squads of multi melta attack bikes, or assault cannon lanspeeders, and it was deadly. My gaming group hated that ability so much they called it the 'Master of the asswing re-roll'
Anyhow, its the satellite dish looking thing on the side of his speeder. At least I got the night shield back although its called the night halo, which I assume is because of those slow poke dark eldar

o.k., i see why some people don't want Belial to be mandatory to unlock Termies as troops...
i don't see the big issue...
you can still take a Libby or Chappy to go along with him, and then there is the extra slots at 2000 pts. to fit in the other guy...
also, even though Grey Knights get normal Termie troops, you still need Draigo to unlock Pallies as troops...
would it be better if he only unlocked Knights, but Termies were a standard troop choice???

the other strange thing is that nobody seems to be slagging Sammael...
will he be the only one to unlock bikes as troops, or will the Captain on a bike do the same, like in C:SM???
why are people so riled up over Termies, and not bikes???

no matter what, it will be interesting to see the difference between the FOC choices in this new book, the old one, C:SM, and Grey Knights...
if there is one thing that Codex history has shown, it's that some people are going to be unhappy no matter what, as everyone has such different interpretations of Fluff, "reality", and coolness...

i just want the minis in that badass Termie box...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
you can still take a Libby or Chappy to go along with him, and then there is the extra slots at 2000 pts. to fit in the other guy...

And if we don't want to bring the same character to every battle with our Deathwing armies, what then?

 jah-joshua wrote:
also, even though Grey Knights get normal Termie troops, you still need Draigo to unlock Pallies as troops...

False comparison. No one's asking for Knights as troops.

 jah-joshua wrote:
would it be better if he only unlocked Knights, but Termies were a standard troop choice???

That wouldn't solve much either.

Take HQ w/Termy Armour = Termies as Troops = Problem Solved.

While its not a deal breaker to have DW as troops only with Big-B, it would be nice if they were just troops no matter what.

I don't think that's going to happen though.

I have a feeling they will be unlocks just like for chaos. Making it primary detachment only.

 Robbietobbie wrote:
It does prevent non-dw lists from taking scoring terminators which is probably good for balancing

How so? You could still take Belial as the mandatory allied HQ and then DW scoring terminators in a list.

Let's stay on topic, please. -Mannahnin

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 warboss wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Super Deathwing and Super Ravenwing added to yet another niche loyalist codex while CSM codex (covering 9 legions) is stale as it's ever been.

Yay Marines!

It's not as stale as that complaint. Chaos Marine Legions have never had independent books whereas loyalist have had them since for almost 20 years. If you haven't gotten used to that by now, you need to find another game.

The problem is Chaos still can't take rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators, yet a single company from a single chapter apparently needs 3 different units of terminators (some of them newly created out of whole cloth) to fill up their codex.

And make no mistake - if said rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators had gotten a plastic kit we would have seen rules for them. If cultists had gotten a multipart plastic kit they would have had better rules with more options than just stubber/flamer/shotgun for the champ. But we didn't get those kits because those resources were being devoted to creating all-new deathwing knights and legless super landspeeders that didn't need to exist.

I agree, DA also got a new special character while chaos are stuck with same special characters since 3.5.

I have to say, if you're saying asmodai is a new character you've some research to do...

Hesporos wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 warboss wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Super Deathwing and Super Ravenwing added to yet another niche loyalist codex while CSM codex (covering 9 legions) is stale as it's ever been.

Yay Marines!

It's not as stale as that complaint. Chaos Marine Legions have never had independent books whereas loyalist have had them since for almost 20 years. If you haven't gotten used to that by now, you need to find another game.

The problem is Chaos still can't take rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators, yet a single company from a single chapter apparently needs 3 different units of terminators (some of them newly created out of whole cloth) to fill up their codex.

And make no mistake - if said rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators had gotten a plastic kit we would have seen rules for them. If cultists had gotten a multipart plastic kit they would have had better rules with more options than just stubber/flamer/shotgun for the champ. But we didn't get those kits because those resources were being devoted to creating all-new deathwing knights and legless super landspeeders that didn't need to exist.

I agree, DA also got a new special character while chaos are stuck with same special characters since 3.5.

I have to say, if you're saying asmodai is a new character you've some research to do...

asmodi isnt new. he's rather old atually.
i do agree with what your saying about chaos.it seems that they havent really put much thought into it.

Basically people want to take a Libby or chaplain to unlock terminators as troops because a Libby or chaplain has a greater effect on the tabletop than a captain. So essentially there having a sulk because their dark angels might not be as super broken as they want.

However sulking does mean they are playing a DA army in character so at least they are fluff gamers lol

Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is, admittedly, 1 Chaplain, so there might be scope for a second special character to lead the Deathwing.

But what, for heaven's sake, is wrong with a Dark Angel force led by a Librarian or Azrael or whatever else to drawn on the Deathwing in the Elite slot?

Yes, these guys are part of the Dark Angels leadership and they can lead Deathwing (as Elites). Noone is disputing that. But they are not Deathwing specifically, so it would strike me as rather unfluffy to have a pure Deathwing force lead by a (non-Deathwing) Librarian.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is, admittedly, 1 Chaplain, so there might be scope for a second special character to lead the Deathwing.

And also only 1 Apothecary and 200 Terminators? Notice also that on that page ALL Librarians belong to the Inner Circle and not separate companies.

 Banesword wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is, admittedly, 1 Chaplain, so there might be scope for a second special character to lead the Deathwing.

And also only 1 Apothecary and 200 Terminators? Notice also that on that page ALL Librarians belong to the Inner Circle and not separate companies.

Which is why they are HQ choices. Like Azrael. But Inner Circle is not Deathwing. Note how the Inner Circle, unlike Deathwing, doesn't fight exclusively in Terminator Armour. Also, being Inner Circle, they command ALL Dark Angels. So it would make sense for armies commanded by them, to include various elements of the Dark Angels (including Deathwing as an Elite-Choice).

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is no Librarian in the Ultramarines 1st company either. That didn't stop one leading a 100% Terminator force against a Genestealer cult.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is no Librarian in the Ultramarines 1st company either. That didn't stop one leading a 100% Terminator force against a Genestealer cult.

Which is a "mistake" of the current Space Marines/Ultramarines Codex, not the Dark Angels one.

Though I probably wouldn't call it a mistake, as it is an event so rare, that players who want to play that specific scenario can simply house-rule to have UM-Terminators as troops for this scenario.

It is an event so rare, that it can probably be omitted in the official rules in favor of the more "iconic" combinations (which, in the case of Dark Angels, would be a Deathwing force led by their captain, not the 1-in-a-trillion odd-one-out when Belial wasn't with a sizable pure Deathwing force).

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Banesword wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is, admittedly, 1 Chaplain, so there might be scope for a second special character to lead the Deathwing.

And also only 1 Apothecary and 200 Terminators? Notice also that on that page ALL Librarians belong to the Inner Circle and not separate companies.

Which is why they are HQ choices. Like Azrael. But Inner Circle is not Deathwing. Note how the Inner Circle, unlike Deathwing, doesn't fight exclusively in Terminator Armour. Also, being Inner Circle, they command ALL Dark Angels. So it would make sense for armies commanded by them, to include various elements of the Dark Angels (including Deathwing as an Elite-Choice).

But the Company Master isnt compulsory for taking Tactical Squads as Troops. As discussed previously surely Belial wouldnt be with all of the Deathwing? Why would a small force of Deathwing Terminators led by a Librarian/Chaplain/Other not be Troops? Surely having more options is a good thing, even if this turns out not to be the case.