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Dude a crap tank design that does not even match the army that got stuck with it does not make the IG. There are to damned many IG armies a=out there where people like me said feth that POS tank that does not fit the look of my army.
Half the IG models look like modern armies man, sure ya have some wwI or per WWI inspired armies but the big ones really are not and the tank does not match them nor does it match the more modern looking things like valkyries. I myself like the IG, I have never and will never like the garbage left over from the silly days they have been sadly saddled with.

I get that the Ig is about non sleek rugged kinda old school items,however the Russ is not "Old school rugged" its just sad and useless. If you like the Russ man, I promise I will not hunt you down and single handily smash your tanks( it may take a whole team and a well trained attack weasel for that). If my dislike of IG tanks bugs ya that much, well maybe ya should simply not respond to my dislike .

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I think he may have had a hand in it..if so he was an idiot.

So what's wrong with the arguably the most successful tank in the galaxy? Backbone of the IG? I'm really interested to hear your opinion...

You are joking right?

Nope. He's serious...and I agree with him. The Leman Russ has led the Imperial Guard to victory over the millennia; say what you want about the tank, but the results speak for themselves.

The tank is terrible because whenever the IG has fought other races "tanks" with their garbage tank, they get spanked fifty ways to sunday. It's not good, nothing the IG has is good. they rely strictly on numbers to be effective. All their equipment is trash is the absolute most honest sense of the word. Their "rifles" are called flash lights, their troops are recycled into food paste when they die and frankly, they are known to have more fratricide KIA than enemy KIA in some regiments.

So yes, their tried and true tank is total garbage when compared to a Tau, Eldar, SM or Necron design.

I might be wrong but I seem to recall that way way back Leman Russ was the name of an Imperial Commander before all the Primarch fluff came out (& before the original Leman Russ marine-sized model with his wolves was relesed). That's possibly where the name came from.

In terms of the tank itself, it's blatantly a tank designed by someone who knows what the basic layout of a tank looks like but practically nothing else about them.
It would ground itself out on tiny rocks, has no suspension, it cannot depress the main gun to fire at anything close, there is no room for the ridiculously sized cannon's breech, the shells would be far too big & heavy to load even if it had a breech, the turret ring is far too small for the gun size, the tall slab-sided design is the worst possible for armour penetration... I could go on almost indefinitely.

I guess it all has to be put down to them being 'heroic scale' in the same way a Cadian's lasgun is longer than he is tall!

 Daedricbob wrote:
I might be wrong but I seem to recall that way way back Leman Russ was the name of an Imperial Commander before all the Primarch fluff came out (& before the original Leman Russ marine-sized model with his wolves was relesed). That's possibly where the name came from.

In terms of the tank itself, it's blatantly a tank designed by someone who knows what the basic layout of a tank looks like but practically nothing else about them.
It would ground itself out on tiny rocks, has no suspension, it cannot depress the main gun to fire at anything close, there is no room for the ridiculously sized cannon's breech, the shells would be far too big & heavy to load even if it had a breech, the turret ring is far too small for the gun size, the tall slab-sided design is the worst possible for armour penetration... I could go on almost indefinitely.

I guess it all has to be put down to them being 'heroic scale' in the same way a Cadian's lasgun is longer than he is tall!

You're right on this one. Leman Russ was an Imperial Army Commander (or Lord Commander, if I'm not mistaken?) before he became a Primarch. I'm actually curious to know what the interior cut-out of a Leman Russ would be like. At least the super-heavies are a little more believable in design.

(Also, a fair number of long-rifles and muskets with bayonets are actually longer than their users are tall. )

 Daedricbob wrote:

In terms of the tank itself, it's blatantly a tank designed by someone who knows what the basic layout of a tank looks like but practically nothing else about them.
It would ground itself out on tiny rocks, has no suspension, it cannot depress the main gun to fire at anything close, there is no room for the ridiculously sized cannon's breech, the shells would be far too big & heavy to load even if it had a breech, the turret ring is far too small for the gun size, the tall slab-sided design is the worst possible for armour penetration... I could go on almost indefinitely.

AFAIK, the Leman Russ was originally a tractor STC design... Like, yes, it is a civilian tractor with some guns strapped on it. And it is supposed to be the most successful tank of the galaxy!

 Kaldor wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I often dislike 40k background when its over the top stupid. This is one of those cases, twisting fluff to try and justify something not based on fluff. GW are good at that. You know damned well what those rivets on the russ are. If the admech are bonding items like rivets then they are stupider then fluff makes them out ( which is pretty stupid)

The whole point of the Imperium of Man as a whole, and the Imperial Guard in particular, is to appear as a backwards society, mired in technological repression and religious extremism. They don't use the best tactics, they don't innovate or improvise, they don't constantly improve their technology or vehicles. If anything, they are going in reverse, with technology being lost and forgotten instead of improved and created. That's what the Imperium of Man is. And the backwards and inefficient looking vehicles are part of that.

Then it's all blended in with a whole bunch of handwavium technology to make it sound cool and in-universe plausible. This includes using outrageous explanations like molecular bonding studs instead of rivets. Even if they were regular rivets, the technological repression rampant in the Imperium would not allow for improving the manufacturing process. It is, by now, a holy ceremony.

If that really grinds your gears, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe 40K isn't your thing.

Even then
1. Death korps of Kriegs are explicitely cited in the fluffs as "Clone army", new recruits are vat-cloned, all those recurits went to basic tests that is very lethal, only survivors go to the training facility. as you can see, within the scopes of IoM, only Admech knows how to clone human being, and even so it is illegal. but Kreigsche still do it.
2. Explain why 'outcast vehicles' like Ragnarok has seen its action within some IG regiments. GW introduced it for Kreigsche/Barans for Epic Armageddon and therefore it is 'official'
3. I don't know the logic of rivetings and where "Molecular-bonding" rivets come from? but judging Admech works from IG vehicles are quite wrong! go and look at some SM armored vehicles still being produced. the Rhino and its variants. rivettings are rarely being seen? Rivets are dangerous to secure pieces of (plas)steel sheets together. if a rivet is hit by a rifle bullet fired from an enemy joes, the rivet itself becomes projectile and ricochet inside the vehicle, crews inside might gets hurt or even worse. killed! saying that standard Russ hull is made of ONE LAYER plasteel and secured by rivetting is very stupid! a small loophole seen in the seams of rivetting pieceworks and sayin' that Russ is NBC-proof is even more absurd! I'm quite sure that Admech still practice weldings. and every excess metals are polished away before paintings.
Welding is considered 'basic' industry trade by today standard, and Admech still does it, i'm sure of it. ...
or maybe Russ hull armor is actually composite pieces, or maybe plasteel is closer to aluminium than to Iron.? (Aircrafts still uses rivetting meow)

1. I believe cloning is rather just heavily regulated. Ever heard of the Afriel Strain? Even Servitors are sometimes just clones. And as for the Krieg regiment, I recall it not being outright said that they are full clones but rather that they are all born from an "Iron Womb". This could imply cloning, but it could also imply a mere incubator.
2. The Imperial Guard is heavily standardised when it comes to weapons and vehicles, but not actually outright limited from using non-standard equipment. Locally produced PDF-vehicles such as the Ragnarok may indeed find their way into the regiments raised by the worlds where it is produced, or other regiments that stock up there or are merged with existing formations who field this tank. It's just going to cause supply issues down the road, which is why most regiments follow the standards.
3. I don't see a problem with rivets. You're assuming that they would not be secured in some way from the other side -> http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Spall_Liner

Who knows, maybe the rivets in the IoM have been secretly infused with miniature self-sustaining void shield generators, thus explaining why even the most rickety-looking IG vehicles can miraculously shrug off small-arms fire that would penetrate it!

Fun fact, 7.62mm rounds fired from an assault rifle go right through the side armor of an M113, which was used by (and in some places still used by) the United States and several countries as the standard armored personnel carrier for combat deployments. Now extrapolate this to the 41st millennium: standard APC, the chimera, check. standard Imperial weapon - lasrifle/autogun, check. Weapons and armor will always be at an "arms race" against each other to see which can out-do the other.

TheCustomLime wrote:
The Regal Dorn Battle Tank? The Ferrus Manus Battle Tank?

If it were a Ferrus Manus BT, it would have a gaping hole where the turret used to be

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
They rely strictly on numbers to be effective. All their equipment is trash is the absolute most honest sense of the word.

And? What's wrong with that when you have unlimited recruitment, unlimited production and the will to send it all into the grinder?

IIRC American Sherman tanks were total crap when compared to the top German machines but they were plentiful. So what if it takes six Shermans to down a Panther? Three of the Shermans can be repaired, one is in working condition since it got the kill and there's plenty more on the way. Production is king. The IoM works on the same idea - we have the factories and the manpower, let's see if our enemies can spend as much as we do on this fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedricbob wrote:
I might be wrong but I seem to recall that way way back Leman Russ was the name of an Imperial Commander before all the Primarch fluff came out (& before the original Leman Russ marine-sized model with his wolves was relesed). That's possibly where the name came from.

True that - he's featured in a picture in my old WH40K Rogue Trader rulebook. Really ugly fellow too, what with the rebreather apparatus he wears after getting his lungs damaged beyond repair on some or other world with an acidic atmosphere.

Spetulhu wrote:
[
IIRC American Sherman tanks were total crap when compared to the top German machines but they were plentiful. So what if it takes six Shermans to down a Panther? Three of the Shermans can be repaired, one is in working condition since it got the kill and there's plenty more on the way. Production is king. The IoM works on the same idea - we have the factories and the manpower, let's see if our enemies can spend as much as we do on this fight.

The issue with that being ya might need 6 to 12 Russes to kill a Sherman . The Panzer was a damned fine tank, but the Sherman was not a bad design itself, just outmatched. The Russ as designed however is ...well...not well designed, not cost effective and not easy to build and small on resources. Its not a good design to do what you are talking about with, the IG seem to use more effective designs for aircraft, armor and weapons. The Russ is not effective and compare it to the Sherman is a joke.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
[
IIRC American Sherman tanks were total crap when compared to the top German machines but they were plentiful. So what if it takes six Shermans to down a Panther? Three of the Shermans can be repaired, one is in working condition since it got the kill and there's plenty more on the way. Production is king. The IoM works on the same idea - we have the factories and the manpower, let's see if our enemies can spend as much as we do on this fight.

The issue with that being ya might need 6 to 12 Russes to kill a Sherman . The Panzer was a damned fine tank, but the Sherman was not a bad design itself, just outmatched. The Russ as designed however is ...well...not well designed, not cost effective and not easy to build and small on resources. Its not a good design to do what you are talking about with, the IG seem to use more effective designs for aircraft, armor and weapons. The Russ is not effective and compare it to the Sherman is a joke.

Nothing in the Imperium is. It's all extremely backwards, with great religious import attached to everything. Changing a design to improve battlefield performance is heresy.

The IG gear for the most part is not backward, its rugged, well designed and a bit throwback. The Russ however is just a waste of time, money and manpower.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG gear for the most part is not backward

It very much is.

This is such a silly thread.

The Leman Russ is a hilariously bad design.

The enemy tanks it faces are worse.

What does this say about the enemy tanks? Why aren't you angry at them? My riveted armor is AV14, but the Tau's sleek, sloped, welded armor is AV13.

Be more mad at the Tau for still failing when doing things right (!) than at the Imperium for not wanting to release a new tank design when their current one is obviously better than the opposition.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG gear for the most part is not backward

It very much is.

In some units yes, for the most part of the big ones gear wise. No.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is such a silly thread.

The Leman Russ is a hilariously bad design.

The enemy tanks it faces are worse.

What does this say about the enemy tanks? Why aren't you angry at them? My riveted armor is AV14, but the Tau's sleek, sloped, welded armor is AV13.

Be more mad at the Tau for still failing when doing things right (!) than at the Imperium for not wanting to release a new tank design when their current one is obviously better than the opposition.

No tanks it faces have worse game stats and worse fluff, but are better designed for the most part ( not all) Fluff does not match the image.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG gear for the most part is not backward

It very much is.

In some units yes, for the most part of the big ones gear wise. No.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is such a silly thread.

The Leman Russ is a hilariously bad design.

The enemy tanks it faces are worse.

What does this say about the enemy tanks? Why aren't you angry at them? My riveted armor is AV14, but the Tau's sleek, sloped, welded armor is AV13.

Be more mad at the Tau for still failing when doing things right (!) than at the Imperium for not wanting to release a new tank design when their current one is obviously better than the opposition.

No tanks it faces have worse game stats and worse fluff, but are better designed for the most part ( not all) Fluff does not match the image.

Well, my point is the design may be great for the other tanks, but they're still getting their asses kicked by the LRBT. So why should the Imperium change its design when the best tanks that the other races can come up with get smashed aside by the rickety old half-assed rust buckets that the Imperium uses?

Trying to look for it in the new books, on what pages does it say it uses rivets? or are we just assuming it does?

In the 40k wiki it says that the tank has scanners so that is what the rivets probably are. Also the wiki says that it is poorly designed and also says that it is extremely complex and advanced main battle tank.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG gear for the most part is not backward

It very much is.

In some units yes, for the most part of the big ones gear wise. No.

The entire Imperium, and the Imperial Guard in particular, are very far from effective and rugged gear. They are backwards and archaic. They utilise trench warfare, bayonet charges, massive backpack vox units in an era of helmet-sized long range vox units, horse cavalry, and so on. Cadians are arguably the only quasi-modern force in the Imperium, and they are no more 'modern' than the rest.

The fact that the Russ is a backwards, inefficient tank is entirely the point. That's how it's supposed to look.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Daedricbob wrote:
I might be wrong but I seem to recall that way way back Leman Russ was the name of an Imperial Commander before all the Primarch fluff came out (& before the original Leman Russ marine-sized model with his wolves was relesed). That's possibly where the name came from.

In terms of the tank itself, it's blatantly a tank designed by someone who knows what the basic layout of a tank looks like but practically nothing else about them.
It would ground itself out on tiny rocks, has no suspension, it cannot depress the main gun to fire at anything close, there is no room for the ridiculously sized cannon's breech, the shells would be far too big & heavy to load even if it had a breech, the turret ring is far too small for the gun size, the tall slab-sided design is the worst possible for armour penetration... I could go on almost indefinitely.

I guess it all has to be put down to them being 'heroic scale' in the same way a Cadian's lasgun is longer than he is tall!

You're right on this one. Leman Russ was an Imperial Army Commander (or Lord Commander, if I'm not mistaken?) before he became a Primarch. I'm actually curious to know what the interior cut-out of a Leman Russ would be like. At least the super-heavies are a little more believable in design.

(Also, a fair number of long-rifles and muskets with bayonets are actually longer than their users are tall. )

According to this site (http://nerdfighters.ning.com/group/gamesworkshopnerds/forum/topics/awesome-customs-and), the cutaway looks like this

I'd heard it was a mix up in the early fluff with the tank itself that never got worked out. It sucks that the Space Wolves can't use them anymore.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


Be more mad at the Tau for still failing when doing things right (!) than at the Imperium for not wanting to release a new tank design when their current one is obviously better than the opposition.

No tanks it faces have worse game stats and worse fluff, but are better designed for the most part ( not all) Fluff does not match the image.

Ok, so you're going to ignore both the fluff and the rules. Ok. So what are you basing your view point on then, just the image?
Might as well start on the how do all those thing hover, why would you ever want anything that looked like the sentinel, and so on.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


Be more mad at the Tau for still failing when doing things right (!) than at the Imperium for not wanting to release a new tank design when their current one is obviously better than the opposition.

No tanks it faces have worse game stats and worse fluff, but are better designed for the most part ( not all) Fluff does not match the image.

Ok, so you're going to ignore both the fluff and the rules. Ok. So what are you basing your view point on then, just the image?
Might as well start on the how do all those thing hover, why would you ever want anything that looked like the sentinel, and so on.

-Matt

Rules are based on design strategy and balance, not realism. Fluff...well, then it's a matter of "it works because I say it does" with varying degrees of believability.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Ok, so you're going to ignore both the fluff and the rules. Ok. So what are you basing your view point on then, just the image?
Might as well start on the how do all those thing hover, why would you ever want anything that looked like the sentinel, and so on.

-Matt

The issue is the image yes. I said that like page 2, most folks know the image does not match what the tank does in fluff or reflect the tanks game stats. Its a WWI design, which some folks simply love. But it does not fit the IG( other then a few WWI inspired regiments), something more like a WWII or post WWII design ( one that is rugged and well designed) would better fit the fluff. The Russ is not supposed to be super high tech or sleek or so archaic it would be totally ineffective. What it is supposed to be is rugged and effective. Something the model simply is not.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Ok, so you're going to ignore both the fluff and the rules. Ok. So what are you basing your view point on then, just the image?
Might as well start on the how do all those thing hover, why would you ever want anything that looked like the sentinel, and so on.

-Matt

The issue is the image yes. I said that like page 2, most folks know the image does not match what the tank does in fluff or reflect the tanks game stats. Its a WWI design, which some folks simply love. But it does not fit the IG( other then a few WWI inspired regiments), something more like a WWII or post WWII design ( one that is rugged and well designed) would better fit the fluff. The Russ is not supposed to be super high tech or sleek or so archaic it would be totally ineffective. What it is supposed to be is rugged and effective. Something the model simply is not.

So how do you judge how "effective" something is from looking at the model? Because according to everything ever (rules, fluff, fan-works, images) the Leman Russ is fething effective despite the model.

 hdbbstephen wrote:

According to this site (http://nerdfighters.ning.com/group/gamesworkshopnerds/forum/topics/awesome-customs-and), the cutaway looks like this

Nice work on that, but no way in hell its scale. You are not fitting 4-6 men and 40 shells( more with side guns) in that. Still nice work though.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 hdbbstephen wrote:

According to this site (http://nerdfighters.ning.com/group/gamesworkshopnerds/forum/topics/awesome-customs-and), the cutaway looks like this

Nice work on that, but no way in hell its scale. You are not fitting 4-6 men and 40 shells( more with side guns) in that. Still nice work though.

I could see three in the hull and one in the turret.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

So how do you judge how "effective" something is from looking at the model? Because according to everything ever (rules, fluff, fan-works, images) the Leman Russ is fething effective despite the model.

Because the model can't do what it does in fluff man. Go back and read this thread, the issue with the model design and why no tank after WWI uses those design flaws. Yes in fluff and by game stats its effect, but that model can not do what it says it can. No more then it is in scale and and holds six men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I could see three in the hull and one in the turret.

Not in that lay out. We know the commander is in the turret...but so is the Gunner.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

So how do you judge how "effective" something is from looking at the model? Because according to everything ever (rules, fluff, fan-works, images) the Leman Russ is fething effective despite the model.

Because the model can't do what it does in fluff man. Go back and read this thread, the issue with the model design and why no tank after WWI uses those design flaws. Yes in fluff and by game stats its effect, but that model can not do what it says it can. No more then it is in scale and and holds six men.

How do you know that the model cannot do what it says it can? Perhaps materials science has improved so that 110mm of armor is ~40000mm RHAe or something? Perhaps the engine develops 10,000,000 KW allowing the tank to power through any and all terrain, suspension be damned?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I could see three in the hull and one in the turret.

Not in that lay out. We know the commander is in the turret...but so is the Gunner.

How do we know the gunner is in the turret? And I can see driver + hull gunner + 1 in turret basket + 1 standing behind turret basket (probably gunner)