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I've been leaning a lot more to fluff gameplay recently and started warming up to the idea of running SM allies to my IG, but I think I would only do this if there was a precedent in the lore for a Guard regiment and a Space Marine chapter to share the same iconography and colour scheme. For instance, would it be totally unheard of for a Guard regiment to be made up entirely of aspiring space marines who had not yet recieved any geneseed, and fought beside the Chapter they were trying to join? Any other justification would be fine, that was just the first one to come to mind.

There are planets governed by space marines, it's logical that the guard or PDF stationed there are matching.

There wouldn't be a IG regiment made up of aspiring SM...

Generally, fluff paradoxes aside (looking at you Ultramarines...) or very exceptional circumstances, Space Marines generally do not command anything but their chapter forces. Their PDF is usually themselves and Chapter Serfs. Imperial Guard forces are not in any way bound to obey Space Marines, who have no place in their chain of command, and obviously vice versa.

This is a result of the changes made following the Horus Heresy, marines remain elite response units, but cannot command forces sufficient to wage wars on any meaningful scale on their own.

PDF is the only real way you can do Guard style troops sharing a Marine aesthetic and make it fluff-legal.

And this is often less due to shared command, as they would be kept quite separate, but more to do with a shared culture and history, as most Chapters incorporate elements of the world(s) they recruit from.

But, as always, the Guard and PDF is focused on function, while the Marines are more focused on aesthetic, so bright orange and blue guardsmen or PDF fodder matching your custom marines isn't really going to fly, but a Mech Marine list backed by a Mech PDF from the same world with, perhaps, the same crest or rough theme would be acceptable.

The only place you'll see real integrated Guard-style forces and Marines is in Ultramar, and with the Tyrant's Legion army that FW produced, represented Lufgt Huron's rogue Astral Claws operating an integrated second-tier IG-style army, which, by the way, is one of the reasons the Imperium proceeded to grind him and his mock-legion into dust. The High Lords really don't like the idea of Space Marines assuming too much command or power.

Ultramar PDF wears some Ultramarine related icons. You could make your army something similar.

It sounds like shared iconography is okay, but shared colours are not. Is that right?

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
It sounds like shared iconography is okay, but shared colours are not. Is that right?

I'd see a shoulder patch in the Chapter's colors and similar iconography as reasonable.

Technically you could; a Guard regiment raised from a world under the dominion of a Space Marine Chapter is unusual (Space Marine recruiting worlds are exempt from the tithe of men taken from Guard worlds), but it's possible. You also might have a recruiting world with a particularly well-trained PDF; I believe there have been statements in canon about Ultramar's PDF being close to a normal Guard regiment in equipment and training, but that may just be Matt Ward gushing, so I'm not sure.

There is no reasonable way to have a brightly coloured PDF or Guard army. Imperial Guard rely mainly on camouflage and concealment for protection from enemy fire (as do real world armies). Unless you're fighting on a baby blue and shocking pink planet, your blue and pink Imperial Guardsmen just aren't going to work.

An IG regiment could come from a planet under SM protection that isn't a recruiting world. One does not equate the other. It could also be a founding following some great incident in which a given crusading chapter saved a planet, which honored them in the livery of the new regiment(s).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, There are plenty of IG regiments that wear purple, or blue, or red into battle, so lack of camo can still be canon.

Mordian Iron Guard
Praetorian Guard
Volpone BlueBloods

There are literally billions of Guard Regiments, with billions of colour schemes. Plenty of them are aristocratic enough that they don't fancy that boring old camoflage.

I would say some previous posters would be right, it's entirely feasible to say that a 'Guard' army would match a space marines heralrdy and uniform. However, they are correct in saying, it would not be an Imperial Guard army, but more like either a PDF for a chapter world, or armed Chapter Serfs. An example would be the novel The Battle Of The Fang.

A thing that is worth keeping in mind is, Imperial Guard Armies storywise are millions strong and 'your' Imperial Guard army is likely just a tiny, tiny section of the line.

So, lets say you do paint some IG models as Chapter Serfs or PDF. The way to keep your mind in scale, concept and story wise is that these couple of hundred models you own are quite possibly *all* the guys in that colour scheme present on the line.

Unless you were to say, set the battle or games on your chapters star system, chapter planets or other chapter 'assets.' - For example, perhaps it is a Space Marine cruisers defence detachment. Cruisers have crews of 1000's of normal humans, some of which will be military trained 'Armsmen' style serfs.

Still Standing wrote:There is no reasonable way to have a brightly coloured PDF or Guard army. Imperial Guard rely mainly on camouflage and concealment for protection from enemy fire (as do real world armies).

People need to get away from making contemporary real world comparisons to 40k. An IG regiment can look like a contemporary military unit. It can also look like anything we've had in the past, from Napoleonic War era "lobster" uniforms to Roman style tunics and cloaks. Hell, there are IG regiments formed from feral worlds, with soldiers who go into battle wearing nothing but a loincloth and a lasgun. And sometimes not even that but just a spear or a bow.

All in all, I would even go as far as presuming that IG units using camo are the minority. This is not only connected to a regiment's homeworld culture and tradition, but also to the vast majority of Imperial worlds being governed by a hereditary nobility who fancy form over function, rather than militarily astute leaders who would even bother to investigate such issues. And since I have yet to see Space Marine Chapters using camo as well, I do not think they would differentiate much when it comes to the PDF of their loaned homeworld.

There are Codexs that lead Imperial Guard regiments that share the same livery (colors/heraldry/etc) and work in sync together.

It's simply that those chapters haven't been written yet (or at least not much) and it's up to YOU to write this chapter. Do your IG/SM together and make a good back story about the planet.

 Still Standing wrote:
There is no reasonable way to have a brightly coloured PDF or Guard army. Imperial Guard rely mainly on camouflage and concealment for protection from enemy fire (as do real world armies). Unless you're fighting on a baby blue and shocking pink planet, your blue and pink Imperial Guardsmen just aren't going to work.

Where did I say they were going to be bright and colourful? Where did blue and pink come from? It's fine if you dont like an idea, but mocking or belittling a person for having that idea is entirely the wrong attitude.

I'd like to thank everyone else for their contributions, you've a been very helpful and I think I have enough to go on now.

I like Lobukia's idea that the IG regiment is honoring the crusading SM chapter that saved them, perhaps by doing their left shoulder pads like the chapters symbol

creeping-deth87 wrote:I've been leaning a lot more to fluff gameplay recently and started warming up to the idea of running SM allies to my IG, but I think I would only do this if there was a precedent in the lore for a Guard regiment and a Space Marine chapter to share the same iconography and colour scheme. For instance, would it be totally unheard of for a Guard regiment to be made up entirely of aspiring space marines who had not yet recieved any geneseed, and fought beside the Chapter they were trying to join? Any other justification would be fine, that was just the first one to come to mind.

Space marine recruit only a few recruits every sometimes once every hundered years, so it would be impossible to field regiments (also they would not be IG, as marines cannot 'own' IG regiments.) also take into account travel time and training time making all of the recriuts useless for implantation due to going outside of the age bracket.

juraigamer wrote:There are planets governed by space marines, it's logical that the guard or PDF stationed there are matching.

IG do not get stationed on marine worlds, this is due to the fact that the marines own that world and would not tolerate continued meddling by other organisations. PDF armies are also only seen on chapter worlds with large populations which make a tiny fraction of chapters, most chapters reside on feral worlds only populated by a handful of barbarian level humans. Who for the most case have no understanding of space let alone defending their world from attack.

Members of the Steel Legion wear the Templar cross on uniforms and vehicles due to past cooperation.

That would depend largely on the chapter and it's homeworld, I would think. Almost every world, at least the more advanced ones, have a PDF...regardless of whether they are an "Astartes" planet. I remember in "A Thousand Sons", the PDF there has similar style to the Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. This was not because of the Thousand Sons, but because of the colors that were popular on the planet (and both the PDF and Astartes Legion adopted those colors). Given the wide expanse of the galaxy and number of possible worlds/chapters/combinations, I don't think it'd be too hard to conceive of a planet where the PDF is heavily influenced by IG doctrine and shares battle effort with their Astartes benefactors.

Plus there's the fact that Space Marine chapters aren't all cotton-candy-colors. A dark green Guard regiment on a forested planet under the rule of a Dark Angels successor, a black Guard regiment on a hive world under the rule of a Raven Guard successor, a pale grey Guard regiment on an ice world under the rule of a Space Wolves successor, these all make sense.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
There is no reasonable way to have a brightly coloured PDF or Guard army. Imperial Guard rely mainly on camouflage and concealment for protection from enemy fire (as do real world armies). Unless you're fighting on a baby blue and shocking pink planet, your blue and pink Imperial Guardsmen just aren't going to work.

Where did I say they were going to be bright and colourful? Where did blue and pink come from? It's fine if you dont like an idea, but mocking or belittling a person for having that idea is entirely the wrong attitude.

I'd like to thank everyone else for their contributions, you've a been very helpful and I think I have enough to go on now.

Nobody was belittling you. I was referring to the fact that most Marine chapters are painted bright colours, and the two I mentioned simply being the polar opposite of a real camo scheme. I personally link most of my armies together in a similar way to you. My Sisters have gold armour with red robes. My Vostroyans have gold armour with green fatigues (complementary colour to red). My heresy era Blood Ravens are obviously red, gold and bone. All of these armies are loosely designed to look like a unified whole on the table. However I did not start with a Space Marine and decide to paint an Imperial Guardsman in the same colours. It is a better idea to take the colour scheme of your Marines and work it in to your Guardsmen. that's easier with some regiments than others. Pretty easy with Vostroyans, more difficult with Cadians or Krieg for example. If you're using Cadians you might want to paint them in a basic camouflage then use spot colours and logos in your Marine chapter colours. Perhaps an Ultramarine blue circle with the regimental logo on the shoulder pads might be fitting and link in with your Marines.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
a Space Wolves successor

We don't....talk...about that

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Members of the Steel Legion wear the Templar cross on uniforms and vehicles due to past cooperation.

That was the Navy, not the Guard, but yes, there's precedent for this sort of thing.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Technically you could; a Guard regiment raised from a world under the dominion of a Space Marine Chapter is unusual (Space Marine recruiting worlds are exempt from the tithe of men taken from Guard worlds), but it's possible. You also might have a recruiting world with a particularly well-trained PDF; I believe there have been statements in canon about Ultramar's PDF being close to a normal Guard regiment in equipment and training, but that may just be Matt Ward gushing, so I'm not sure.

Isn't Necromunda an example of this not being the case though? Necromunda had a very famous regiment in 2nd Ed fluff, the Spiders, who fought to a man to ensure the safety of evac birds IIRC. Additionally, the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda underhive gangs.

The Ultramarines bother me in that all of their fluff is very contradictory to the "official" word of Rowboat Girlyman but yet they like to throw their weight around against others who don't follow it. They're quite the Nazis.

As to the idea, I don't see why it's not do-able. Maybe a combined arms campaign force. I know it's not uncommon during campaigns for SM commanders to take command of IG. In fact, Grimnar did this for the... 2nd war for Armageddon. So perhaps an IG company that operates in conjunction with a SM detachment frequently might start adopting some of their symbolism & iconography. I don't know if it's canon or not for guardsmen to receive any honorary awards from Chaplains but I know that SM of non-codex chapters can earn such & vice-versa (such as SW bestowing Fenrisian honors on an allied SM who fought valiantly alongside them). And there could be aspiring Space Marines in a "whiteshield" platoon on a planet that is known head hunting ground for a certain chapter since they're youth soldiers.

 Compel wrote:
There are literally billions of Guard Regiments, with billions of colour schemes. Plenty of them are aristocratic enough that they don't fancy that boring old camoflage.

This. And if your world has a history with some Marine Chapter it wouldn't be unreasonable to honor them by showing some of their heraldry. Or even the Marines honoring the mortals that aided them by showing some of their heraldry...

Astral Claws.. Though not officially IG, they were pretty well equipped. At least well enough to put up a fight against a space marine chapter or two.

 purplefood wrote:
There wouldn't be a IG regiment made up of aspiring SM...

Yeah, that's definitely not possible.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Generally, fluff paradoxes aside (looking at you Ultramarines...)

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Maybe a chapter utilising it's serfs as extra armed forces?

 gaovinni wrote:
Maybe a chapter utilising it's serfs as extra armed forces?

I got a 500 point guard force for a doubles tournament more than a few years ago, when i'm done painting my Imperial fists 3rd company (i hate yellow now lol) the guardsmen will get stripped and be painted as a matching force as the security/crew of their strike cruiser.
I don't see why a chapter wouldn't use serfs or auxiliaries to supplement their rear area security, possibly as extra support during an attack on a well defended installation.

The kicker though is that the Astartes, army and navy were split after the Horus heresy, originally the legions consisted of all 3 elements. But in the 41st millenium there are no regiments 'officially' attached to chapters.
but, a quick look at the fluff in the marine codex tells us that certain chapters like the raven guard will fight for those abandoned by the imperium, and they are regarded as heroes by the people of those planets. it stands to reason therefore that they might adopt the same iconography, request to serve alongside their heroes and so forth. and it also stands to reason that if one chapter can get that sort of reputation, why not another?