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The CSM Codex has two big problems IMHO:

1. Terrible external balance. The internal balance of the codex is cool, every unit is useful in one way or another, and if you face with another CSM, then you can have any kind of army and you will still have a good chance to win. Even Thousand Sons/Warp Talons are good in such mirror matches. But normally, only a (small) part of your opponents willbring CSM against you. You will probably meet the Top-Tier-Trinity (IG, Necrons, GK) much more, and against those guys the CSM codex is simply weak. You will only feel a clear chance to win against such mid/lower tier armies like Tau, SM and Eldar. And that is totally distressing, as it means that you can have a good match-up against what... like 4 codexes out of the 12? And when you decide to min/max your army to challenge the other "not-good matchup" codicies, then you are forced to take all-Nurgle, and you have to leave all the other nice choices. And that's not cool, because what if you want to play a fluffy Iron Warriors army (possible) but 9 times out of 10 you play against IG/Necron/SW? You kneel down and take the c*ck with a smile on your face (definietly not fun)? Or what?

2. Unimaginative units/options: So, the units and selections are cool, but they are rather... flavorless. Nothing stands out, nothing shines, nothing says "take me, I'm awesome!". In a perfect codex (like GK), everything should have this. Because that's what kicks people into the essence of the army. With the CSM codex, there are no pre-battle excitement to what to choose, because everything is awesome, and you totally want to bring it all. Stuff is just... stuff in the CSM armies. And ultimately it kills the soul of the selections: you will bring units to the table because you kinda' like them, and you have the model for them, and maybe because they fit into your army idea; and not because you literally fall in love with them, and they scream "takemetakemetakeme" right into your mind. Meanwhile, on the other end of the table, the Necron player have a spontaneous orgasm because he has just re-discovered the awesomeness of the Canoptek Wraiths and he will now bring 18 of them against you...

So what makes a good codex to you is units that are a "must take" being in it? I disagree.

The GK codex is far from perfect. I find that statement laughable actually.

I find many of the units in the CSM codex to be FAR from flavorless. If anything there is so much choice I am having a hard time settling on just one build. It certainly isn't perfect either and it isn't all I hoped for, but people claiming it is horrible probably haven't played it much.

 AtoMaki wrote:
The CSM Codex has two big problems IMHO:

And when you decide to min/max your army to challenge the other "not-good matchup" codicies, then you are forced to take all-Nurgle, and you have to leave all the other nice choices.

I'm sorry, but to me this is just the opposite of "cool internal balance"

 Mr. Voidness wrote:


I'm sorry, but to me this is just the opposite of "cool internal balance"

Perceptive!

Exalted!

 Mr. Voidness wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
The CSM Codex has two big problems IMHO:

And when you decide to min/max your army to challenge the other "not-good matchup" codicies, then you are forced to take all-Nurgle, and you have to leave all the other nice choices.

I'm sorry, but to me this is just the opposite of "cool internal balance"

Actually, no. On their own, the not-optimal units are just as good as the optimal ones. 300 points of Noise Marines just as cool as 300 points of Khorne Berzerkers. You can unleash these two on each other, and it will be a fairly equal fight. As I mentioned, CSM vs CSM is pretty well balanced, no matter what army the players use. And I think it represents a good internal balance. The problem arises when you take these units against units from other (better) codicies (you bring the balance to the "external" level).

So what makes a good codex to you is units that are a "must take" being in it? I disagree.

Well, I think a good codex has only "must take" units. I also dislike one-build codicies, but my general experience is that the GK is anything but a one-build codex.

Well since the topic is "lackluster" and not "total fail", I think the OP was not trying to say it is a bad codex and no one can win with it, but rather it did not match his pre-release hopes.

I have been playing since 3rd edition and I chose Black Legion by chance (liked the color scheme), so for me 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 and 6.0 have all been playable and I have enjoyed trying all the options and combinations each codex has provided differently.

However, if I were an Alpha Legion player, or Iron Warriors or World Eaters or what have you, each codex that did not follow the path of 3.5 would be "lackluster"

Also I hear a lot of commenters tell people with a desire to play one of the legions to use model x as a "count as" whatever. That is a "lackluster" option. In a world with 6+ loyalist codices, it would have been nice for the 6.0 codex to add a single page of non-broken, non-overpowered rules for each Legion (except Black Legion since frankly we are the Smurfs of Chaos).

Since that didn't happen, and the ability to legion-up your personal force can only be done as "counts as" this codex will remain "lackluster" IMHO even as I continue to enjoy the hobby with my army.

Cheers!

 McNinja wrote:
I'm trying to start a new CSM army, probably mostly chosen (their models look the best, or at least the DV ones do), but the problem I'm seeing is that there's nothing really awesome about the codex. Sure, there are Helldrakes and Forge/maulerfiends, which are cool, but there's so much that's overcosted, so much that could have been put in (like, I don't know, half of the daemon weapons from the 3rd ed book? There were at least three per god), but this codex seems really weak and empty compared to 3rd edition and especially compared to newer codices like GK, which has special weapons and abilities out the bum.

Am I the only one seeing this, or is this another case of poor imagination?

P.S. At least this codex lists out the playtesters so we know who to slap.

Hang on. You want to slap some guys because they did their jobs properly? Huh. I thought that one of the points of playtesting units was so that you wouldn't get ridiculously undercosted, broken units *cough* Imperial Armour Aeronautica *cough*.

This is clearly meant to be a balanced Codex, we often think overcosted with some units because we're comparing them to the most recent Codex releases like Necrons and Grey Knights. The problem isn't that the Chaos Codex is overcosted, it's that other Codecies are undercosted. I'm a Space Wolf player, and yes, my Codex is blantantly undercosted, there's nothing wrong with Chaos Space Marines.

 NEWater wrote:
Bring a Heldrake, bring an allied attachment of Chaos Daemons of screamers and flamers, and you win all the things.

wouldnt it be better then , to take the demon dex , get more of those awesome demons and ally in a helldrake?

AtoMaki-the problem does not happen in the CSM codex, but in the trinity codecies themselves.

The CSM codex is perfect power-wise. internal balance is good, and external balance is great when you dont compare it to the OP stuff, but to the sane stuff like SM, BA, SW, Tau, Eldar, DE, demons, nids and orks. all of these I am happy to play with and against, along with chaos. (SOB, DA and BT are out of the list being underpowered to the level of too easy, lucky that DA gets updated soon and hopefully added to "fun" list)
The trinity however, I would refuse to play a casual game against against random guys. they are just freaking angering to play against. forget power level, I cant even have any fun there, as if the enemy prefers optimization over flavor I lost the match before it even began!
I love the chaos power level. I I WISH my tau will have the same power level and inner balance when they get their update. I don't want a trinity-class codex, its just not fun.
However, not a single unit in the codex is outright "bad", some are highly situational, some are list-dependent, and some are outright hard to use, but they all got SOME value, even if just amusement value. (looking at you-possessed!)

Fluff wise, a bit more chaotic-flavored things would be good, its a shame khorne got no assault transport, and tzenech is a bit weak-but they are all still playable, and still works in a sane game.
They could have fix it better, yes, but nobody's perfect. and they did do a fair job. that boon table is amusing as hell and makes any fight with chaos in large numbers turns out just how you expect a fight with chaos to be-utter insanity with epic units reduced to nothing, meat shields turning into powerhouses and units changing battlefield roles midgame due to mutations.
It would have been even crazier if the possessed worked properly, they didn't patch them well, but you cant have everything.

In the end of the deal, the CSM codex is FUN-fun to play with, and fun to play against. and that's the most important factor.

 cvtuttle wrote:
So what makes a good codex to you is units that are a "must take" being in it? I disagree.

The GK codex is far from perfect. I find that statement laughable actually.

I find many of the units in the CSM codex to be FAR from flavorless. If anything there is so much choice I am having a hard time settling on just one build. It certainly isn't perfect either and it isn't all I hoped for, but people claiming it is horrible probably haven't played it much.

I like the chaos codex far more than a lot of people seem to, but I still found more to agree with in his post than otherwise.

I expect I'll never play Grey Knights; they're really not my style, they annoyed me by having too many broken toys and being all over the place, and I got a bit tired of facing them. That said, when I first purchased the codex and read it, I was deeply jealous of all the flavor and STYLE in it. There are so many interesting and fun units, some of which sadly don't see the table enough because folks focus/ed on the undercosted common stuff (psyflemen, etc.). But it's still a book where there are virtually no "dud" units, and a lot of variety and fun to be had. It's certainly not perfect, but still probably closer than the new Chaos book.

Now, I do think that the Chaos book has some good variety and a lot of viable builds, but it does come off as a bit of a rush job, and I do think the internal balance is worse than other books. All of the AV12 walkers are overcosted for how desperately vulnerable AV12 walkers now are in this edition. Warp Talons are unbelievably terrible; old-spawn-level bad. I do not expect to ever see them at a tournament, and if I do, I feel very confident it would be a near-guaranteed win due to my opponent having wasted so many points on such a terrible unit. Regular Thousand Sons come close to this bad as well, at this point. I was shocked to see GW not fix them and make them viable, and instead actually make them arguably worse. Berserkers went from a viable and useful unit in 5th to a weaker unit in an edition which makes assaulting more difficult. The Mark of Tzeentch is also just awful for any unit that's not a daemon.

The book also has some significant issues in the weapons and wargear sections, with units having bad or illogically-limited options. Why can't Noise Marines have Sonic Blasters in addition to a CCW? Why can't a Plague Marine champion trade his Plague Knife for a fist or power weapon?

I was worried when the Chaos codex came out that we'd have another GK codex in that it would be over the top and shiny and we'd see a million people bandwagoning it. But it seems like GW was scared of that and held back, both in terms of creativity and in terms of power. Which is a shame, at least in the former department. The latter department has honestly helped keep my interest in it. I'm not seeing everyone jump on the bandwagon or decry it as broken, so that makes me more interested in playing it and making it work, just as I enjoyed using the last one and winning tournaments with it while people wrote if off as bad or weak.

The Chaos Codex is not bad, it would be better if it was because as least then it would have some character. The Chaos Codex is "meh." It's dull, uninteresting, just a bunch of spiky marines backed with spiky tanks, and dinobots.

Even those who play it now probably started in an earlier edition. The 2nd edition Codex was good, and they felt like the dark reflection of the Space Marines.

Even though I don't like the look of Belial, and I'm not planning to buy the new models, the Dark Angels managed to arouse excitement, even with a Codex that was of similar antiquity to the previous Chaos Codex.

I probably wouldn't have minded had they made more options, and less like a partial update to 4.0.

Anyone know how to accurately price blastmaster preds? I still had them and sonic dreads since 3.5, and I'm getting tired of using them as "Counts-as"

I think it comes down to both having units that are simply bad (Warp Talons) or overpriced (Berzerkers, Chosen) and units that we've simply seen too much of.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of seeing Standard SM vehicles with the word "CHAOS" in front of it. It's like a bunch of Orks trying to be evil, scratching off all of the Imperial stuff and replacing it with spikes and skulls.

Perhaps it comes from also playing Vanilla SM, but I've had way, way too much of predators, Land Raiders, Power Fists, Lightning Claws, Vindicators, and combi-weapons to be excited when I see them. I love the new stuff, mainly because they're new (the rules could use a bit of work, like for the Dark Apostle who can't get TDA or a 2+ save at all), but I expected this codex to follow the trend GK and Necrons set of having a bunch of new and exciting units and wargear to try out.

So you played loyal marines and then decided you wanted to go the complete other direction and play evil marines?

I can see where a lot of your anti-chaos-dex posting is coming from. Personally would have gone something totally different for my second army.

The biggest gripe for me is there are no legion specific rules in our single codex whereas loyal marines get 6+ different flavours all with special units, characters, rules etc. Deathwing were already special units in a unique chapter? Better give them better stats! Cult terminators on the other hand? Nope.avi

MarsNZ wrote:
So you played loyal marines and then decided you wanted to go the complete other direction and play evil marines?

I can see where a lot of your anti-chaos-dex posting is coming from. Personally would have gone something totally different for my second army.

The biggest gripe for me is there are no legion specific rules in our single codex whereas loyal marines get 6+ different flavours all with special units, characters, rules etc. Deathwing were already special units in a unique chapter? Better give them better stats! Cult terminators on the other hand? Nope.avi

Oh, this isn't my second army. My first was Necrons, then DE, then SM, now CSM.

I agree with your point. The best CSM have is Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, and Kharn, and all they do is make certain elites troops.

It's also bizarre that they didn't release new sculpts for any of the big ICs. Not that they're generally bad sculpts (although Abaddon is kind of terrible and Lucius certainly isn't great), but they've had the same darn models since 2nd ed. They're all 15-20 years old (except Huron, who's from 4th ed, IIRC).

My local group has a lot of Chaos players, in fact, I think only 3 or 4 guys don't have a Chaos army, and three of them use it as their primary army.

Their reception to the codex has been pretty positive; there isn't quite as many fluffy options to make the various legions, which is disappointing, but there's enough elements from each of the legions to capture some of their flavour, and there really are few useless units in that codex. I think the real mark of success there is no Chaos players I know use the same list, and every list I've seen, with a few oddball exceptions when we're experimenting, have been particularly weak. The only units i'd consider genuinely substandard are Lucius (but our group isn't named-character heavy, so no big loss) and the Hellbrute, and some of the cult troops are still a little too expensive, but still perform admirably.

Now, it is worth considering this isn't a highly competitive codex; for it to be so, we'd have to embrace the power creep GK and 'Crons have launched upon, so I'm not overly disappointed by the codex's lack of ability to trounce those armies; steps need, and have been, in the case of GK, to scale down their power level, rather than boosting everyone up to their level. So, for a Chaos tourney player, this codex isn't radically changing the landscape, but for every other environment, it's pretty solid. It's going to struggle against croissont spam, draigowing, screamer/flamer spam and guard AirCav, but if that's what you're playing all the time, honestly, find yourself a new group, because that's likely not going to get any better for a long time. The Chaos dex isn't the problem there, the problem is those codexes and how they perform in 6th, or rather, how a specific number of exploitable lists perform in 6th.

My hope is that, moving forwards, 6th ed. codexes will be at about the same power level and overall design of the Chaos dex; there's enough fluff-friendly stuff in there to create good, themed lists, and enough strength to perform well in almost every scenario. The army isn't very spam friendly, and encourages diverse, creative approaches to armies and battlefield tactics. Their one true weakness is limited mobility; lack of fast transports or transport capable-fliers, or deepstrike options for convention forces leaves them primarily as footsloggers. I, for one, would have liked to see Dreadclaws become standard, and they could have used a little more AA.

It may not allow a full set of rules for each legion, and it won't roflstomp any of the current powerdexes, but all in all, I know the Chaos players I know are happy with the codex, certainly happier than with its predecessor, and if it marks a new, more restrained tone in GW codexes, I'll be quite happy with 6th.

The real judgement will come with the new Dark Angels codex; it's looking like power creep is alive and well within it from what we've seen, and I'm holding my breath, hoping that the super-powerful units they've unvieled so far will come with a high points cost or some other limiting factor in some attempt to retain balance, but only time will tell.

It's also bizarre that they didn't release new sculpts for any of the big ICs. Not that they're generally bad sculpts (although Abaddon is kind of terrible and Lucius certainly isn't great), but they've had the same darn models since 2nd ed. They're all 15-20 years old (except Huron, who's from 4th ed, IIRC).

Which is weird, considering Huron was in the 2nd edition codex, and the only other SC's were Abbadon, kharn, and Fabius Bile, not counting the DP's for each god (N'kari, Doombreed, Foulspawn, and M'kachan) and Cypher.

I have been watching people comment on the new chaos dex, waiting and hoping they will realise the blatantly obvious.

Codex chaos marines was released alongside the forge world horus heresy book, you know the thing that will be focussing on ALL the chaos LEGIONS, so I'm sorry to all the chaos players that they won't be getting that in there basic codex, but you will be.getting it ( at a gw premium of course), but on the plus side... You will be getting in depth rules for all your pre-heresy and post heresy legions

 MajorStoffer wrote:
It's going to struggle against croissont spam, draigowing, screamer/flamer spam and guard AirCav

So basically every list that you WILL see at any tournament. So as a chaos player I get to show up and contribute my entry fee to the prize pool, knowing that I am pretty much guaranteed to lose?!?! No thank you, the problem as you said is the "trinity" but since they ARE the problem, the solution is not releasing unimaginative garbage dexes that stand no chance against said trinity....not unless you plan on nerfing the trinitiy (not going to happen). This was the first Dex specifically designed to be released in the 6th edition rules environment......total fail of a dex....either power creep or don't, but stay the course....

In my Spats against it, It was ok, Not overly powerful or underpowered.

 MajorStoffer wrote:


The real judgement will come with the new Dark Angels codex; it's looking like power creep is alive and well within it from what we've seen, and I'm holding my breath, hoping that the super-powerful units they've unvieled so far will come with a high points cost or some other limiting factor in some attempt to retain balance, but only time will tell.

Dont bet on it....new scupts = new kits = new $ale$.....they will be undercosted and OP.....guaranteed

 Formosa wrote:
I have been watching people comment on the new chaos dex, waiting and hoping they will realise the blatantly obvious.

Codex chaos marines was released alongside the forge world horus heresy book, you know the thing that will be focussing on ALL the chaos LEGIONS, so I'm sorry to all the chaos players that they won't be getting that in there basic codex, but you will be.getting it ( at a gw premium of course), but on the plus side... You will be getting in depth rules for all your pre-heresy and post heresy legions

Except it's also general space marine, and not for use against 40k. (As people keep saying anyways, nobody's posted a link to that forgeworld says)

The thing is that when the C:SM comes, it'll likely still have what it had in 5th..Which is still far more then CSM has, so about five chapters will be getting their rules for their legion included still.

The Horus Heresy is actually not designed for 40k use, unlike most FW supplements. They've specifically stated that while the rules are nominally compatible, they're not intended or designed around being balanced against normal 40k. Little things like Volkite weapons would break certain armies with poor armour.

The Horus Heresy isn't a substitute for the CSM codex, it's not even a supplement like Imperial Armour, it's basically a different game using the same basic rule concepts.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Now, it is worth considering this isn't a highly competitive codex; for it to be so, we'd have to embrace the power creep GK and 'Crons have launched upon, so I'm not overly disappointed by the codex's lack of ability to trounce those armies; steps need, and have been, in the case of GK, to scale down their power level, rather than boosting everyone up to their level. So, for a Chaos tourney player, this codex isn't radically changing the landscape, but for every other environment, it's pretty solid. It's going to struggle against croissont spam, draigowing, screamer/flamer spam and guard AirCav, but if that's what you're playing all the time, honestly, find yourself a new group, because that's likely not going to get any better for a long time. The Chaos dex isn't the problem there, the problem is those codexes and how they perform in 6th, or rather, how a specific number of exploitable lists perform in 6th.

I can't say I really agree with this approach. It's NOT giving a new codex good counters to those lists or making it equivalent to them in power that creates the "not going to get any better for a long time" situation. If each new book can compete on reasonably even footing with the top books, then everyone gets to enjoy a changing game environment and a rotation and mix of top lists. If, for example, Chaos actually had gotten even two cost-effective anti-air units, it could have significantly impacted the prevalence of Scythe Spam lists and made them less common, which would benefit all books which don't have good counters as a result.

All that said, I'm not yet convinced that chaos can't compete with those books. I do worry that to do so we might lose a good bit of variety doing so. None of the daemon engines match up very well to Necron or GK massed S7 shooting, and Havoc Flakk missiles are really overpriced.

Does the Chaos codex have an auto win button. No, no it doesn't. But if you don't think it can compete then your truely missing something.

Just like all top tier lists, if you concentrate one what the codex does effectively and cheaply you will be able to compete at the highest level. You just have to avoid the fluff stuff. The codex can put down an impressive amount of high strength shooting.

Yeah the codex doesn't have as many fluff toys as some of the previous ones (this alone makes me a sad panda) but to say it can't compete with 13 point MEQs and a ton of AP4 or better shooting that is available to you, is extremely short sighted. It gets the job done. Its only downside is that even for an MEQ army, it may not be very forgiving of mistakes unlike some other top tier lists, but it will get the job done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:


All that said, I'm not yet convinced that chaos can't compete with those books. I do worry that to do so we might lose a good bit of variety doing so. None of the daemon engines match up very well to Necron or GK massed S7 shooting, and Havoc Flakk missiles are really overpriced.

Why take Havok Flakks when for an extra 50ish points you can change out for autocannons and add 4 more in a second unit.

The chaos codex (when you concentrate on the cheap stuff) can send out a lot of really effective firepower and in 6th, firepower seems to be the bread and butter.

 juraigamer wrote:
The new CSM book isn't bad, is that everyone wanted a matt ward version aka grey knights and/or another 3.5 codex.

This is what we call a Strawman. I didn't want a Mat Ward facemelter. I wanted a codex that didn't read like a minor edited copypasta from 4th edition.

Don't listen to the haters, is a good balanced book.

Mmmmmmm not even close.

Explain how it is balanced? Please explain why it's balanced instead of throwing around buzzwords like "balanced".

 Formosa wrote:
I have been watching people comment on the new chaos dex, waiting and hoping they will realise the blatantly obvious.

Codex chaos marines was released alongside the forge world horus heresy book, you know the thing that will be focussing on ALL the chaos LEGIONS, so I'm sorry to all the chaos players that they won't be getting that in there basic codex, but you will be.getting it ( at a gw premium of course), but on the plus side... You will be getting in depth rules for all your pre-heresy and post heresy legions

And thank God for that. When I read the Horus Heresy: Betrayal, I realized how terrible the Fail Kelly book was. And the sad thing is that the HH book isn't all that much more expensive.

I feel like the new dex has fair internal balance and is not OP but is somewhat lackluster.

1. Internal Balance issues. Seems like warp talons, raptors, possessed and 1000 sons are below the rest of the dex in terms of their points to power value. Seems like Nurgle make out the best as far as marks go. And since this edition has made vehicles easy to ace, most of the chaos vehicles seem overpriced.

2. Lackluster. They should have left the original demon weapon rules, or something similar in the dex. I agree that it would have been nice to have some new options beyond the Zoids that they gave us. The book seems empty to me when you view it from all but a 6th ed perspective. Fluff seems a bit weak etc. The sorcery chart is exceptionally weak for all units but perhaps its greatest weakness is Tzneech. The mandatory challenge rules are just stupid.

3. The GOOD. They fixed marks so that they cant get sniped out of the unit and that its a uniform per model price instead of one mark price for a unit regardless of size. Also, Veterans of the long war gives us a huge boost in combat resolution. That coupled with the addition of a second combat weapon gives chaos a definitive edge in melee against loyalists. Spawn got better.

4. The Best. Seems like the hell turkey is pretty sick with a bale flamer. It regularly kills whole units of mine when my buddies weild one against me.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Not a bad codex, but a very unimaginative and bland one.

very bland.

ooo you have god specific psykic powers! O wait, no, they are bland and unimaginative direct damage spells. Take the standard book powers.

 quickfuze wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:


The real judgement will come with the new Dark Angels codex; it's looking like power creep is alive and well within it from what we've seen, and I'm holding my breath, hoping that the super-powerful units they've unvieled so far will come with a high points cost or some other limiting factor in some attempt to retain balance, but only time will tell.

Dont bet on it....new scupts = new kits = new $ale$.....they will be undercosted and OP.....guaranteed

Mutilators and Warp Talons are both new sculpts. I guess they must be undercosted and OP.