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 Guardsman Bane wrote:
I've always thought of a Spartan being equivalent to a Storm Trooper. Storm Troopers are the absolute best humanity has to offer that aren't Astartes. Check their fluff, they're actually pretty baddass. So, by this logic, I reckon a 10th company scout could handle a Spartan and a full marine would stomp one.


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Note: This is just my opinion and I have no intention of getting drawn into a useless argument about it. Feel free to disagree with me, publicly if you must.

I totally agree with you, Storm trooper fluff makes them so much better then there TT use...

Kaldor. What makes you right? as opposed to some of the other posters on this thread? You are simply shooting down everybodies posts by saying "your fanboyism is showing" when you are the only one here that seems to be a fanboy. I am a huge fan of the Haloverse and have been into it much longer than 40k. But when it comes down to brass tacks the Space Marine is superior to the Spartan II. The spartan may have superior tatics and knowledge but when you are locked in a room naked in a fight to the death does it even matter? Take a human and lock it in a room with a tiger. The human is smarter and has superior tactics but it still wont stand a chance.


And thank you TheCaptain. You seem to be the most mediated one here.

 Grey Templar wrote:
True, but it would require some major refitting. Marine armor is designed to hook up with the Black Carapace, which a human will not have.

It will also be designed to fit the proportions of a marine, not a human. Which would make altering a Marine's PA to fit a human very impractical.

Once more untrue. The black Carapace is cyberware that is only limited by tradition. Like the armor itself it is dark age tech. We know for fact humans used SM armor from the HH, it was identical in every way other then size ( it was shorter if I recall). The SM's where shocked and then where asked why as it was simply STC armor, they clearly must have a working STC as well as they used the same armor. Sm armor is a dark age STC design, it was armor made for humans the Big E then altered to fit his super humans. Not the other way around. Humans with the correct interface could use the Sm armor with little issue.

Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


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Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

 soundwave591 wrote:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


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Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

My only problem is where does it state that a spartan has reaction times that are 300x faster? People are giving all of there passages to support there reasons besides reaction times.

I only know about the spartans from the games/manuals, what I gleaned from this thread, and researched here:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

I get the strong impression that the spartans are modified humans; in that they still are basically humans with human cells, organs and basic human biochemistry with some additions bestowed upon them. They weigh in at about 400 pounds and can lift about 1200 pounds. They are stated as having a 300% increase in reflexes compared to normal humans which would seem to me to put them around space marine level (there are numerous examples of marine displaying superhuman reflexes). The one advantage they seem to have over marines is a faster sprinting speed. Marines, while slower when legging it, have demonstrated that they can maintain their top speed for a prolong time without exhaustion (Short story by Gav Thorpe had marines run 40 miles per hour for a half day IIRC). So it might be a slow and steady wins the race unless Spartans are on record for being able to sprint for days on end.

Space marines are basically a different species from humans. They have different cell structures, organs, and chemically composition than normal humans. Their implants are not a limit on their abilities, just what is added to them as they are being turned in to a space marine; every single part of a marine’s biology is distinct from a normal human. They don’t have normal human blood, organs, or cells; they are altered down to the genetic and chemical level - whereas the spartans seem like they are 90 percent human (spartans don’t seem to have super kidneys, stomaches, or immune cells; like the space marines for example - again I haven’t read the halo books so I might be wrong here). I remember reading that marines clock in around 700 pounds unarmored (normal ork boys are 500 pounds according the the Space Marine game manual IIRC). They are able to shrug off what would typically be lethal damage and heal near instantly, clouting over fatal wounds in mere seconds and shrugging off poisons that would kill a elephant. Being able to spit acid might actually be a huge boon in this situation as well; plus the inherited combat instincts and other assorted boons like being able to smell the spartan wouldn’t hurt the marine's odds.

I just don’t see in a bout fisticuffs the spartan could even serious hurt the marine via landing blows, let alone win. Marines are able to take an extreme level of damage, and I don’t think a spartan is able to inflict the necessary force to kill a marine using just his fists or found objects. And if we are hoping for a KO situation, marines brains are extremely trauma resistant as the can endure situations that would liquify the brain and other organs of a normal human being, which they demonstrate by withstanding the g-forces imposed on them by their drop pods. In the Eye of Terror novel a chaos marine was dispatched by his battle brother who shot him in the back of his unarmored head with a burst of bolter fire at point-blank range. It took multiple burst to kill the marine with his murderer ironically cursing the difficulty in killing a marine. There are numerous other examples found in novels and other sources depicting what is required to kill a marine and what level of damage they are able of surviving. This may be a bias from playing the halo games, but I am not left with the impressions that spartans are anywhere near that tough.

 Grunt13 wrote:
I only know about the spartans from the games/manuals, what gleaned from this thread, and researched here:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

I get the strong impression that the spartans are modified humans; in that they still are basically humans with human cells, organs and basic human biochemistry with some additions bestowed upon them. They weigh in at about 400 pounds and can lift about 1200 pounds. They are stated as having a 300% increase in reflexes compared to normal humans which would seem to me to put them around space marine level (there are numerous examples of marine displaying superhuman reflexes). The one advantage they seem to have over marines is a faster sprinting speed. Marines, while slower when legging it, have demonstrated that they can maintain their top speed for a prolong time without exhaustion (Short story by Gav Thorpe had marines run 40 miles per hour for a half day IIRC). So it might be a slow and steady wins the race unless Spartans are on record for being able to sprint for days on end.

Space marines are basically a different species from humans. They have different cell structures, organs, and chemically composition than normal humans. Their implants are not a limit on their abilities, just what is added to them as they are being turned in to a space marine; every single part of a marine’s biology is distinct from a normal human. They don’t have normal human blood, organs, or cells; they are altered down to the genetic and chemical level - whereas the spartans seem like they are 90 percent human (spartans don’t seem to have super kidneys, stomaches, or immune cells; like the space marines for example - again I haven’t read the halo books so I might be wrong here). I remember reading that marines clock in around 700 pounds unarmored (normal ork boys are 500 pounds according the the Space Marine game manual IIRC). They are able to shrug off what would typically be lethal damage and heal near instantly, clouting over fatal wounds in mere seconds and shrugging off poisons that would kill a elephant. Being able to spit acid might actually be a huge boon in this situation as well; plus the inherited combat instincts and other assorted boons like being able to smell the spartan wouldn’t hurt the marine's odds.

I just don’t see in a bout fisticuffs the spartan could even serious hurt the marine via landing blows, let alone win. Marines are able to take an extreme level of damage, and I don’t think a spartan is able to inflict the necessary force to kill a marine using just his fists or found objects. And if we are hoping for a KO situation, marines brains are extremely trauma resistant as the can endure situations that would liquify the brain and other organs of a normal human being, which they demonstrate by withstanding the g-forces imposed on them by their drop pods. In the Eye of Terror novel a chaos marine was dispatched by his battle brother who shot him in the back of his unarmored head with a burst of bolter fire at point-blank range. It took multiple burst to kill the marine with his murderer ironically cursing the difficulty in killing a marine. There are numerous other examples found in novels and other sources depicting what is required to kill a marine and what level of damage they are able of surviving. This may be a bias from playing the halo games, but I am not left with the impressions that spartans are anywhere near that tough.

I feel like this guy did his homework

 Grunt13 wrote:
I only know about the spartans from the games/manuals, what I gleaned from this thread, and researched here:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

I get the strong impression that the spartans are modified humans; in that they still are basically humans with human cells, organs and basic human biochemistry with some additions bestowed upon them. They weigh in at about 400 pounds and can lift about 1200 pounds. They are stated as having a 300% increase in reflexes compared to normal humans which would seem to me to put them around space marine level (there are numerous examples of marine displaying superhuman reflexes). The one advantage they seem to have over marines is a faster sprinting speed. Marines, while slower when legging it, have demonstrated that they can maintain their top speed for a prolong time without exhaustion (Short story by Gav Thorpe had marines run 40 miles per hour for a half day IIRC). So it might be a slow and steady wins the race unless Spartans are on record for being able to sprint for days on end.

Space marines are basically a different species from humans. They have different cell structures, organs, and chemically composition than normal humans. Their implants are not a limit on their abilities, just what is added to them as they are being turned in to a space marine; every single part of a marine’s biology is distinct from a normal human. They don’t have normal human blood, organs, or cells; they are altered down to the genetic and chemical level - whereas the spartans seem like they are 90 percent human (spartans don’t seem to have super kidneys, stomaches, or immune cells; like the space marines for example - again I haven’t read the halo books so I might be wrong here). I remember reading that marines clock in around 700 pounds unarmored (normal ork boys are 500 pounds according the the Space Marine game manual IIRC). They are able to shrug off what would typically be lethal damage and heal near instantly, clouting over fatal wounds in mere seconds and shrugging off poisons that would kill a elephant. Being able to spit acid might actually be a huge boon in this situation as well; plus the inherited combat instincts and other assorted boons like being able to smell the spartan wouldn’t hurt the marine's odds.

I just don’t see in a bout fisticuffs the spartan could even serious hurt the marine via landing blows, let alone win. Marines are able to take an extreme level of damage, and I don’t think a spartan is able to inflict the necessary force to kill a marine using just his fists or found objects. And if we are hoping for a KO situation, marines brains are extremely trauma resistant as the can endure situations that would liquify the brain and other organs of a normal human being, which they demonstrate by withstanding the g-forces imposed on them by their drop pods. In the Eye of Terror novel a chaos marine was dispatched by his battle brother who shot him in the back of his unarmored head with a burst of bolter fire at point-blank range. It took multiple burst to kill the marine with his murderer ironically cursing the difficulty in killing a marine. There are numerous other examples found in novels and other sources depicting what is required to kill a marine and what level of damage they are able of surviving. This may be a bias from playing the halo games, but I am not left with the impressions that spartans are anywhere near that tough.

/Threaded. The war should end..

 soundwave591 wrote:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


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Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

See you may survive longer. But do you seriously think youd find a way to kill the tiger? Youd be evading it the entire time and if its claws catch you once. Your practicaly done. Probally the same way for the Spartan and Marine. He can evade but eventually hell get caught.

Prism962 wrote:

 soundwave591 wrote:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

See you may survive longer. But do you seriously think youd find a way to kill the tiger? Youd be evading it the entire time and if its claws catch you once. Your practicaly done. Probally the same way for the Spartan and Marine. He can evade but eventually hell get caught.

Exactly. and thats saying if the Spartans reflexes ARE faster than a Marines.

The issue is, we know how fast a spartan is. We do not know how fast a SM is. It seems a bit faster then normal, but as they have not had their nervous system or brains altered to incress speed, they can't be all that faster then normal humans.

Sm are not built for seed, they are built to be in the armor, not outside of it. Power and toughness is what they are built for, speed and reflexes are not even something that was tried to improve upon.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The issue is, we know how fast a spartan is. We do not know how fast a SM is. It seems a bit faster then normal, but as they have not had their nervous system or brains altered to incress speed, they can't be all that faster then normal humans.

Sm are not built for seed, they are built to be in the armor, not outside of it. Power and toughness is what they are built for, speed and reflexes are not even something that was tried to improve upon.

They arent built to be in armor. Theyre built to be killing machines in and out of armor.

To a point,yes. However they have no real improvements on speed or reflexes. Some increases due to over all changes and training, but they are not super fast. It seems most of the "super human speed" has more to do with the common idea that big men must be sluggish.

They are stronger and well trained and were ( as much as any preteen) peak humans to start with. But no, they have no reflex enhancements. They were never meant to need them. The Big E was a bit obsessed with size and power if ya had not noticed.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
To a point,yes. However they have no real improvements on speed or reflexes. Some increases due to over all changes and training, but they are not super fast. It seems most of the "super human speed" has more to do with the common idea that big men must be sluggish.

They are stronger and well trained and were ( as much as any preteen) peak humans to start with. But no, they have no reflex enhancements. They were never meant to need them. The Big E was a bit obsessed with size and power if ya had not noticed.

Space Marines are 100% augmented. There is not a trace part of them that is human. Their blood is actually toxic to normal humans (explained in the Cain series); any normal human tissue in their body would die on contact with it. Every bit of them, ever cell in their body is augmented into something that is no longer human, but vastly superior to human. Their brains are heavily augmented giving them enhanced processing and reactions - it is impossible for a marine to forget anything they ever witness for example (HH Betrayer I believe).

Spartans are established by their wiki as having processing and reaction speeds that is four times that of normal humans. There are many fluff accounts of marines meeting and exceeding this speed. In the book, The Blood Gorgons, a single chaos marine joined a group of chaos humans. IIRC To display his god power he pointed out a group of five combatants in the distance. The combatants then blew up in five thunderous explosions. He drew his gun, single out his targets and put a bolt round in each one; doing all this in a manner that seemed instantaneous to the humans observing him - they didn’t even process him removing his gun from the holster; five armed humans blew up, they looked at the marine to see that he is now holding his boltgun.

The marine also competed against dark eldar wyches and matched their reactions in combat something that is vastly beyond human norm. There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm; which again, is the spartan’s reaction level. Often marine actions are cited as being too fast for normal humans to observe like the example in Blood Gorgons, or their eyes seeing impossible fast moving objects in complete darkness (Ultramarine and Space wolf book series had such examples IIRC). In Blood Gorgon it is was stated that their reaction speed seemed like it was precognition - that their reflex speed seemed instantaneous to any non-marine observer.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Their brains are heavily augmented

No they're not.

 Grunt13 wrote:
There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm;

And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

No they are not 100% augmented.( that is kinda silly really as they would not look or ac human in any way at that point). They are however heavily augmented, we have a list. Enhanced reflexes is not on that list.

Sm are all over the place in power, being unstoppable gods in one book and cannon fodder that die by the dozens in another.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:
Their brains are heavily augmented

No they're not.

 Grunt13 wrote:
There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm;

And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

You are being so absurd that i am honestly starting to think you are a troll

Here, he is not. You guys keep saying something with no back up to it. We have a full list of what changes SM's under go and what each and every one does. The Sm do not have any type of enhanced reflexes listed anywhere. No do I recall any brain changes other then his "stay awake" mode.

But he is not supporting what he is saying in anyway. He is simply shooting down what everyone says by saying "wrong"

No one is disagreeing with the spartan augmentations. He is disagreeing with what you guys as saying about SM as you have no proof. Sure fluff says this or that( but even humans in 40k are known to have inhuman speed or int or something), but the list of changes we have says nothing about them having enhanced reflexes.

We know many things that the SM will outdo the spartan in, but speed is not one of them. The Sm have normal human minds(outside a few listed changes) and normal human nervous system. They are well trained and may well be the cream of the crop, but they do not have an enhanced reflex system of any type.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No one is disagreeing with the spartan augmentations. He is disagreeing with what you guys as saying about SM as you have no proof. Sure fluff says this or that( but even humans in 40k are known to have inhuman speed or int or something), but the list of changes we have says nothing about them having enhanced reflexes.

We know many things that the SM will outdo the spartan in, but speed is not one of them. The Sm have normal human minds(outside a few listed changes) and normal human nervous system. They are well trained and may well be the cream of the crop, but they do not have an enhanced reflex system of any type.

But as previously stated. What are reflexes going to do for you when locked in a room with a much larger, more dangerous opponent. You can dodge and counter for only so long.

Kaldor wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:
Their brains are heavily augmented

No they're not.

If a space marine have normal brains than how can they survive the G - Forces of a drop pod, rest their brain in sections, survive self enduced extended suspended animation, that it impossible for a marine to ever forget something, mentally regulate their biology, or how can a marine gain the knowledge of an opponent by eating their flesh? There is even a short story involving the dark angels hunting a fallen marine only to find that the fallen donated his brain to a human society so they could use it run their entire world. The story obviously emphasized the advanced nature of a marine’s brain. Anyone here remember the story? I believe it was in Inferno.

Kaldor wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:
There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm;

And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

The spartan reaction speed is on record as being 300% faster than human norm. The spartans are four times faster than regular humans, but many things in 40k exceed that speed significantly. I believe the performances of marines in the novels exceed that rate by moving faster than can be detected by the human eye - which I find to be a bit of a cliche in 40K fluff when describing eldar, tyranids, assassins, and marines actions. If the books say that marines move faster then normal human perception than that’s a measurable account of their reflexes. Plus I really think you are wrong on the marines have normal brains account.

if that guy is moving 3 or 4 times slower then you, has little reach on you and the same level of training you then, they have no advantage either.

Really it comes down to who makes the first mistake. The Spartan is fast enough and strong enough to kill a Sm, just like the Sm is strong and well trained enough to do the same to the spartan.

I always considered Space Marines to be "deceptively quick", in the sense that while they are not the fastest soldiers out there, only a fool would think that the armor slows him down when in the midst of combat.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
I always considered Space Marines to be "deceptively quick", in the sense that while they are not the fastest soldiers out there, only a fool would think that the armor slows him down when in the midst of combat.

That's how I read it as well. They are "Inhumanly" fast like say a pro line backer or running back. Folks tend to think any Big man must be slow, so when they move with speed its a bit mind boggling and simply looks to fast.

 prophet102 wrote:
But he is not supporting what he is saying in anyway. He is simply shooting down what everyone says by saying "wrong"

The burden of proof is, and always is, on the person making the claim.

If I say "I have a rock of unobtanium, believe me." it is my job to prove it, or you are free to say it is not true, by way of lack of evidence.

When someone says "SM have enhanced X" they have to cite their reference, or they can be assumed to have simply made it up.

Man some of the post on here have been blatant fanboys.

I love Spartans. I like Spartans a hell of a lot more than I like Space Marines, im going to give it too Space Marines in the end ONLY because they have better endurance/toughness.

They are both increadibly strong
increadibly fast
extremely tactical
designed to work in teams
highly modified.


The only thing I feel that the Space Marine truelly has on a Spartan is that he can probably take a greater beating than a Spartan can so he can fight longer. When the two sides are increadibly close, this extra toughness allows a Space Marine to make an extra mistake and that can be all he need

 TheCaptain wrote:
The burden of proof is, and always is, on the person making the claim.

If I say "I have a rock of unobtanium, believe me." it is my job to prove it, or you are free to say it is not true, by way of lack of evidence.

When someone says "SM have enhanced X" they have to cite their reference, or they can be assumed to have simply made it up.

I've provided no less than six quotes for Space Marine reaction-time. Kaldor is just ignoring it because he has a history of ignoring fluff that disproves his claims (the Taremar vs. Angron debate for example).

No you proved nothing. You showed a hyperbole quote with no proof. Show us what "enhancement" improves reflexes to 300 or 400 times human norm.

 Kaldor wrote:
And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

Seriously, look at this guy's train of logic.

"Any feat of a Space Marine's, no matter how impressive, can be done faster by a Spartan, because Spartans are faster than Marines".

Your circular reasoning can't be hidden by fancy wording my friend.


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 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am going to ignore the fluff and cling to my own faulty interpretation of the texts in spite of all logic.

I decided to fix that for you, you seemed confused, your post is a bit more accurate now.

Oh but, remind me, where is a Spartan's reaction-time stated to be 300 times that of a human being's?