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Except he has previously showed WHY the Spartan was faster. Nobody has shown why a Marine is faster.

 Still Standing wrote:
Except he has previously showed WHY the Spartan was faster. Nobody has shown why a Marine is faster.

If we go by highest feats, the Marine wins, easily. The microsecond slash is far and away above anything a Spartan has ever done. But numerous other feats, like being too fast for enhanced perceptions and reaction-times to perceive (Prospero Burns), or blocking bullets (The First Heretic), and the like occur fairly often.

No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the Psychotherapy and mental conditioning Marines undergo.

It is possable that these processes give faster reaction times by making the brain more efficient. The human brain doesn't function to its full potential normally, its possable that it can be "fixed" through mental conditioning and not any sort of physical enhancement.

This would account for the massive feats Space Marines are shown to have preformed in the fluff.

The difference is that Spartan reaction times are given a canon level, Marines have not had any similar measurement given. This simply gives us an unknown variable in this department, meaning we can't be sure aside from the descriptions of what marines do.

Given that Marines are shown as being able to bat away bullets and come up with whole strategies in microseconds I would say they are at least as fast as a Spartan.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

See, I ask because the number I am familiar with is 20 milliseconds for Spartan reaction-time. Which is... 12.5 times faster than average human reaction-time, which is 250 milliseconds. Some humans have been clocked in at less than 150 milliseconds.

Thiel, while heroic, was "only" a Sergeant, and in combat was being driven back and bested by the Word Bearer he was fighting.

Prospero Burns makes it very much explicit that the Space Marines do get enhanced reaction-time and perceptions. Kasper Hauser, just some guy, has them enhanced to superhuman levels when his genes are spliced with that of the Space Wolves'.

there is plenty of evidence for Space Marines having speed above that of normal humans.

I mean really, even for a Space Marine's mass, to accomplish their feats of strength (Pulping a human's head with a punch, shattering ceramite physically, etc), their punches must travel at superhuman velocities, and they don't have to telegraph them nor have a long pause in-between, they can control their strikes' direction and gak.

No mental training is gonna increase them that much. As I said you can not put named SM's from 40k as the standard. You need to look at what the standard grunt SM's can do. And batting away bullets is not something a standard SM does, its things chapter masters or captain do.( which in 40k even a named human character might pull off such a feat to be honest)

Space Marines have enhanced everything, including reflexes and speed. We see example after example of this in the novels, or even in their stat-line over base humans if you want to use the game. Arguing otherwise makes you look like a fool.

Well basic humans (Sisters of Battle Seraphim) gain initiative 4, so that argument doesn't work.

Novels may tell us Marines are fast, but GW never said that. Look at the list of Marine enhancements and show which of them makes a Marine faster...

 Still Standing wrote:
Novels may tell us Marines are fast, but GW never said that.

You know, other than the times their piloting of the Land Speeder is said to be possible only due to their superhuman/inhuman reaction-times.

And BL is just as valid as the codices.

There is also nothing in that list that would grant them eidetic memory, yet they all have it. So where do we draw the line? Do we just use enhancement lists, do we use feats, do we use games?

Also, Kaldor has admitted on multiple occasions to being a troll (starting with his screen name), so any argument with him on its side is automatically weaker. Ad hominem on my part perhaps, but there you have it.

So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

It says they (Land Speeders, not bikes, pay attention) are scarcely used by non-Astartes (Scarcely means very rarely, not often, if you were confused), and never by other arms of the Imperium's military.

We are given nothing to make us believe the very few humans who do pilot them do so with nearly the same competence attributed to a Marine. And there are so many variables that the basis of your dismissal of it is faulty. Were they born with Marine enhancements? Obviously not. They could be augmented cyborgs, or psykers who specialize in divination or technopathy, or mutants, or the few limited humans so fething good they have superhuman abilities by virtue of their own awesomeness (Eisenhorn for example).

So you can not show proof other then attack those who disagree with you by being snotty about it.You can not prove it, refuse to show the freaking augmentation that does it( as there is not one) and come off as over defensive jerk when someone points it out.

Until you can point out what gives them the enhancement to Reflexes on the list of augmentations we are done here.

Speed is a function of muscle strength, which Marines have in spades, and it is something their mind has to adapt to (much like the Spartans have to adapt to their new abilities). They also undergo rigorous mental conditioning and training.

You are also ignoring the entire library of 40K background other than an almost 30-year old list of enhancement organs.

But fine, lets treat both universes the same and look at the enhancement lists and ONLY the enhancement lists. The SPARTAN is faster than the Marine; he is also incapable of physically causing enough damage to a Space Marine to knock him out, much less kill him if both are locked naked in an empty room. Much like a Space Marine fighting an Eldar or assassin, eventually the Spartan gets caught and that's all she wrote.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

It says they (Land Speeders, not bikes, pay attention) are scarcely used by non-Astartes (Scarcely means very rarely, not often, if you were confused), and never by other arms of the Imperium's military.

We are given nothing to make us believe the very few humans who do pilot them do so with nearly the same competence attributed to a Marine. And there are so many variables that the basis of your dismissal of it is faulty. Were they born with Marine enhancements? Obviously not. They could be augmented cyborgs, or psykers who specialize in divination or technopathy, or mutants, or the few limited humans so fething good they have superhuman abilities by virtue of their own awesomeness (Eisenhorn for example).

Whirlwind tanks are never used outside of the Astartes, doesn't mean it's impossible for a regular human to drive them. Nothing in your quote says that regular humans drive them any worse than Marines, or really says that humans can't drive them with the appropriate training and equipment (pressure suits to counter the g-forces etc). Basically your quote says they are "really really hard to drive". Unless you think they are faster and more maneuverable than a Lightning interceptor?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not show proof other then attack those who disagree with you by being snotty about it.You can not prove it, refuse to show the freaking augmentation that does it( as there is not one) and come off as over defensive jerk when someone points it out.

Until you can point out what gives them the enhancement to Reflexes on the list of augmentations we are done here.

I am literally the only one to provide quotes and citations from books when asked for them, all of which prove superhuman reaction-time for a Space Marine.

I could not care less that the Enhancements list does not stamp enhanced reaction-time explicitly, the fluff is very consistent over this fact: When Space Marine speed and reaction-time is brought up, it is portrayed as above what the average human is capable of. Be it in a codex or in Black Library.

I've beaten you. I've utterly refuted the entirety of your argument, and now you attack my perceived arrogance (I am not arrogant, merely superior) in response, unable to justify your failings.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
(I am not arrogant, merely superior)

Clearly. Obviously you're correct then.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I could not care less that the Enhancements list does not stamp enhanced reaction-time explicitly.

Or at all it seems.

 Still Standing wrote:
Whirlwind tanks are never used outside of the Astartes, doesn't mean it's impossible for a regular human to drive them. Nothing in your quote says that regular humans drive them any worse than Marines, or really says that humans can't drive them with the appropriate training and equipment (pressure suits to counter the g-forces etc). Basically your quote says they are "really really hard to drive". Unless you think they are faster and more maneuverable than a Lightning interceptor?

lol

"Considering the mental and
physical strain of such bewildering manoeuvres, the fact that
few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina of the
Space Marines who crew them."

" the fact that
few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina of the
Space Marines who crew them."

"few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina"

"solely"

"Such feats require not only a
robust and responsive vehicle - which the Land Speeder
undoubtedly is - but also inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot, explaining perhaps why Land Speeders
have for so long remained scarce outside of Space Marine
Chapters, and are chiefly absent in other wings of the
Imperium's military."

And this quote posits that the reason they are scarcely seen outside of Space Marine chapters and never in other wings of the Imperium is due to the necessity of inhuman nerves and reactions.

Come on dude. Really?

Refresh my memory, a Lightning Interceptor is a jet, correct? Aircraft don't have to deal with pesky issues like, I don't know, terrain.

Lightnings are jets (sort of, they can fly in a vacuum) on steroids which can turn almost on the spot due to some fancy thrusters.

Oh, to make one thing clear: I don't believe that it is literally impossible for a human-being to operate a Land Speeder, even adequately.

But the fluff dictates that the Space Marines can use them so well because of their preternatural reaction-time, whether or not superhuman reaction-time is the minimum for piloting one is irrelevant.

In the Eisenhorn books the Arbites make use of Landspeeders quite often.

Lysit wrote:
In the Eisenhorn books the Arbites make use of Landspeeders quite often.

Boom.

Hyperbole exposed.

What examples can be provided that would satisfy the dissenting opinion? It seems that notion that space marines don’t have enhanced reflexes and cognitive processing is the lone holdup now that the spartan’s general limits are established.

Would ten quoted examples from an assortment of sources displaying a reaction time that is significantly greater than human refute that claim? If not then there really isn’t a point to continuing the discussion.

If a half dozen examples can be produced of a marine demonstrating reflexes faster than ten times that of a normal human would the “spartans are faster” side concede? What if there is text outright stating that marines have highly accelerated reflexes; like for example: Inquisitor Dude to guardsman Mark, “Hey, want to hear a fun fact? Space Marine reflexes and cognitive processing speeds are vastly superior to that of a standard human, a marine can actually see the individual flaps of a humming birds wings”? If not, then what is the point? Why should people flip through the books to produce examples that are just going to be dismissed?

Also I am about eighty percent sure I can find a direct quote from Outcast Dead stating a minimal allowed reaction speed for custodians (who compare to marines) as one was reassigned for suffering nerve damaged that hindered his reflexes, despite still being multitude times faster than a normal human. Old salamanders fluff had a similar comparison, they were considered slow for marines, but still significantly faster than normal humans. Found it:

Lexicanum wrote:
As far as can be determined by the Magos Biologis of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Salamander's gene-seed appears to be both stable and as yet uncorrupted. An unusual trait of the Salamanders is that their Battle-Brothers tend to be slower in reflex reaction than other Chapters, though the origin of this factor is debated; it is unknown whether this defect is due to a problem with the gene-seed that manifested as a result of most Salamanders being raised on their high-gravity world, or the psychological result of the Chapter's doctrines and psycho-conditioning against hastiness and impetuosity. However, it has been noted that a Salamanders Space Marine can move just as quickly as any Astartes equipped with Power Armour, and are still significantly faster than those of a normal human.[1a]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Salamanders#.UOrt76WevpQ

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

Going by this there is a list of names for all of the Spartan II's so we would have to go named SM vs. named Spartan

.... Pretty sure its a 50\50 thing... Look we keep looking at what makes them, but you dont look at their individual training. I mean every time I read a BL book the sm has a close combat weapon for training. Yet If you read fall of reach, the spartans are trained to do everything from close combat to far, with and without weapons, plus we dont even know the full extent of the training of the spartans and sm. I mean the spartans could have complete control of their respiratory system We just dont know. We even see it in the Halo games where MC killes a elite with his hands. (I believe its the 4 halo though I might just be wrong...) Also several of those augmentations for the sm are useless in a fist fight...

Look Its too close to call... The universes are too diffrent... Too many variables and stuff... Not to mention there really isnt a way to compare since WH40k is bigger then Halo.

 prophet102 wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

Going by this there is a list of names for all of the Spartan II's so we would have to go named SM vs. named Spartan

No. You don't compare personal capabilities. That's fallacious. You compare standards. Averages. That's the only way to have an accurate comparison.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No one is disagreeing with the spartan augmentations. He is disagreeing with what you guys as saying about SM as you have no proof. Sure fluff says this or that( but even humans in 40k are known to have inhuman speed or int or something), but the list of changes we have says nothing about them having enhanced reflexes.

We know many things that the SM will outdo the spartan in, but speed is not one of them. The Sm have normal human minds(outside a few listed changes) and normal human nervous system. They are well trained and may well be the cream of the crop, but they do not have an enhanced reflex system of any type.

Something people seem to be forgetting is that the training may be even between the two. But the experience is not. A marine can live for a much longer time and see many more battlefields than any Spartan ever could. Thus you average Marine will have much much more combat experience with a large assortment of foes. From Eldar, Tyranid, Chaos, and Orks.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No mental training is gonna increase them that much. As I said you can not put named SM's from 40k as the standard. You need to look at what the standard grunt SM's can do. And batting away bullets is not something a standard SM does, its things chapter masters or captain do.( which in 40k even a named human character might pull off such a feat to be honest)

It may not simply be mental therapy. We know that large portions of the human brain arent utilized. For all we know this therapy allows them to open up more of their brain for use. This is more of a grey area and shouldnt simply be stated that no mental training is going to do that. I will agree it wouldnt speed them to a Spartans level. But it may however speed them to a degree. As well as the fact that we have seen various quotes not simply stating feats but statements that a Marines reflexes are faster than a normal human. This can be seen with the salamanders quote.

 Omegus wrote:
Speed is a function of muscle strength, which Marines have in spades, and it is something their mind has to adapt to (much like the Spartans have to adapt to their new abilities). They also undergo rigorous mental conditioning and training.

You are also ignoring the entire library of 40K background other than an almost 30-year old list of enhancement organs.

But fine, lets treat both universes the same and look at the enhancement lists and ONLY the enhancement lists. The SPARTAN is faster than the Marine; he is also incapable of physically causing enough damage to a Space Marine to knock him out, much less kill him if both are locked naked in an empty room. Much like a Space Marine fighting an Eldar or assassin, eventually the Spartan gets caught and that's all she wrote.

Thank you for pointing this out. The Spartan is not faster than the Marine, even if he was it would not be by a considerable amount. He can simply react faster allowing him more time to perceive and evade.

 Grunt13 wrote:
What examples can be provided that would satisfy the dissenting opinion? It seems that notion that space marines don’t have enhanced reflexes and cognitive processing is the lone holdup now that the spartan’s general limits are established.

Would ten quoted examples from an assortment of sources displaying a reaction time that is significantly greater than human refute that claim?

No.

And here's why: An Astartes has no upgrades to his brain or nerves. Therefore, any increase in reaction times must come purely from moving his muscles more quickly, due to increased muscle strength.

A Spartan also has increased muscle strength. As much as an Astartes. This is why they can run so much faster than them. Therefore, any increase in reaction speeds that an Astartes is capable of, a Spartan is also capable of. However, then the Spartan gets an extra boost because of his enhanced brain and nervous system.

 Grunt13 wrote:
If not then there really isn’t a point to continuing the discussion

There really isn't. The Astartes fanboys simply refuse to admit that another setting has created super-soldiers which have similar capabilities to Astartes.

Taking 2 kids at recruitment age for the Spartan II and Astartes programs, giving them 20 years for training and some field work, take away weapons/armour and throw into a cage to fight to the death. I'd personally put money on the Spartan, i think the training program is better, the augmentations are about equal (if not favouring the Spartan a little with being a bit faster with damn near unbreakable bones for punch/kick with), but more importantly, the Spartan would have been out in the field taking on the toughest combat situations. The Astartes is likely still a scout and hasn't been expected to be the best of the best for his respected army.

Take your average Spartan II and your average Astartes Space Marine and my money is on the Astartes. Hes got year and years of experience of not dying over the Spartan.