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 ScreamPaste wrote:


Regardless, the marine is certainly physically stronger.

I do not think they can throw or even lift a russ( BL BS aside), the SM is clearly stronger, the only real argument is the over reflexes and speed. The Sm is clearly slower, as he has no reflex augment ( BL hyperbole aside). But the SM guys just can't accept that as the Sm must be better at everything as ya know its a Sm, even when its not better.

 Galdos wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

In 27 years of service only something like 3 Spartan II were ever KIA and one critically injued before the Battle of Reach. (I just looked it up, thats right)

You dont know what you are talking about I hate to say it.

This was also supose to be even numbers. I got the impression 1 on 1 but 4 on 4 works just as well.



Every time I come back this topic is more and more of a mess. Im starting to think we should just call it quits

Spartans are never listed as KIA, only missing in action. That isn't because they were still alive, but because the Spartan program was a propaganda tool to create the impression of Invincible warriors. Most of those MIAs were killed during Reach, but several more were slain after the Installation 04 Survivors arrived at Reach to pick up survivors. Several more were killed on Onyx, and three were left drifting in Deep Space aboard the Spirit of Fire.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
the only real argument is the over reflexes and speed. The Sm is clearly slower, as he has no reflex augment ( BL hyperbole aside). But the SM guys just can't accept that as the Sm must be better at everything as ya know its a Sm, even when its not better.

Why is the SM slower? Because he lacks a BulletDodgeMan's Gland? That's an arse argument and I think you know it, the codex fluff gives them super human reflexes, stated, straight up. They also show their super human combat speed by keeping up with wytches and the like in codex material. So even discounting the Black Library which is consistent with the codices on this matter, the marines have super human speed.

And even then, the implants are not the only changes to the Astartes, as has been clearly proven within this thread already, Astartes biology and neurology aren't even close to human. They can turn off sections of their brains to rest them, hibernate, react and think at super human speeds, and have eidatic memories.

So yes, the marine is stronger, but also probably faster.

And answer me this, do you believe that Master Chief is 300% faster than Batman because Batman has no augmentation? Answer honestly, please.

No, the Sm have zero reflex augs, no one has proved a single time they have one. They have training and some muscle changes. The Avg Sm can not run 30 MPH, the Avg sm can not slow down time, and do not have an A.I in there head, much less a replaced nervous system and brain boost implants. it has been shown SoB are technically faster then Sm and they are human.

Sm are not better in this single area, but you guys can not accept that. You use Bl ( which is all over the place and is not constant ) and Ignore then aug list because it says you are wrong. You guys are ins the "Well yeah Space Marinas are better so there" camp and will never budge even on things you can not prove.

On batman, yes a spartan is much faster then Batman, but so are many folks( points to the flash) but always bet on Batman, always.

Spartans - pinnacle bio engineered warrior. They don't get much better than they already are.
Marines are a base line, a mass produced warrior to conquer the galaxy, however since the marine is the baseline they get as powerful as Mephiston, Lysander and Marneus. A regular marine would win out over a spartan. A death company marine would destroy a spartan.

The Spartans had a rough time with the covenant. Marines destroy whole systems full of Xenos scum like the covenant, it's what they were made to do.

Don't get me wrong the Spartans are bad ass, they are just not quite marine level.

And for the last time weapons in the halo universe are really weak compared to those in the 40k one

Honestly, I really don't care if the Marine is slower. Like I already said, they are quick in their own way. They don't jump around the battlefield making Unreal Tournament bounce shots. They charge headlong into the foe and use their size to control the engagement You don't need to be 300% the speed of an average human in order to win a fight. What a Space Marine is is an eight foot tall, two tonne giant who moves as agilely as an average human while wearing three inches of ceramite plate.

What he doesn't dodge, his armor absorbs.

They are not as fast as Spartans. They don't need to be. They also don't die to four small calibre AP rounds.

If speed was so important the Eldar would be top dog.

The OP asked about unarmored fight. Kinda a bar room brawl, the Sm does have size and str on his side for sure. The one and only advantage a spartan has is speed, if he gives the Sm a single opening he is dead. Likewise with the speed there if the Sm makes a mistake he is likely dead.

weapons and armor does not come into it. Either can kill with a bottle or a table leg effectively i would think.

So in an unarmored fight, then the SM wins. Aren't Spartan II's partially fused into their armor? Until Halo 4, I thought John's lower torso and legs were permanently attached to his armor, allowing them to use the motorized joints to achieve higher speeds than normal humans.

(Mjolnir armor development required augmented soldiers. When early models, like Mk III and Mk IV were tested on non augs, the subjects were nearly killed due to the stress that the motorized armor put on their bodies.)

So the Spartan has to take his pants off to fight, losing that motorized speed boost.

No they are not fused. They do interface with the armors A.I in a fight, boosting speed even more , but the augments listed so far are outside of the armor. Inside they are much faster.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Honestly, I really don't care if the Marine is slower. Like I already said, they are quick in their own way. They don't jump around the battlefield making Unreal Tournament bounce shots. They charge headlong into the foe and use their size to control the engagement You don't need to be 300% the speed of an average human in order to win a fight. What a Space Marine is is an eight foot tall, two tonne giant who moves as agilely as an average human while wearing three inches of ceramite plate.

What he doesn't dodge, his armor absorbs.

They are not as fast as Spartans. They don't need to be. They also don't die to four small calibre AP rounds.

You just added a foot of height and three thousand pounds of weight to the Astartes. Jesus H Christ people, try to keep it together.

You know what a fight between a Spartan and an Astartes would look like? The Rumble in the Jungle. Who won that one, the big guy or the fast guy?

Okay, so they can take their pants off. That's reassuring. Must chafe like crazy wearing titanium codpieces all way.

But again, that just means they are losing the mobility advantages of their armor and AI enhancements. Mjolnir Armor focuses on agility and flexibility. Powered Armor focuses on heavy defense and crowd control.

Taking them out of the armor, the Spartan loses some of his speed and his ability to shrug off heavier blows. Still the faster opponent.

The Marine is still a head taller and half again as wide as a Spartan. His mobility doesn't change, as the Black Carapace only allows a marine to wear his armor as a second skin, not as a speed boost. Marine moves at the same speed, still hits like a truck.

So now we are down to fists. Both soldiers have super strength. An SM might not be able to throw a tank, but I wouldn't say that they can't pick one up. Likewise, Spartans can flip Scorpions, which are at least as heavy as a Russ.

So we have fast and jumpy versus large and controlling. Both with approximately equal strength and wildly different combat doctrines.

WHO. IS. DEADLIEST?

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

In 27 years of service only something like 3 Spartan II were ever KIA and one critically injued before the Battle of Reach. (I just looked it up, thats right)

You dont know what you are talking about I hate to say it.

This was also supose to be even numbers. I got the impression 1 on 1 but 4 on 4 works just as well.



Every time I come back this topic is more and more of a mess. Im starting to think we should just call it quits

Spartans are never listed as KIA, only missing in action. That isn't because they were still alive, but because the Spartan program was a propaganda tool to create the impression of Invincible warriors. Most of those MIAs were killed during Reach, but several more were slain after the Installation 04 Survivors arrived at Reach to pick up survivors. Several more were killed on Onyx, and three were left drifting in Deep Space aboard the Spirit of Fire.

"In the last decade of combat there has only been three KIAs and one Spartan too woounded to continue action" Fall of Reach page 240 in a briefing before the battle of Reach.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The OP asked about unarmored fight. Kinda a bar room brawl, the Sm does have size and str on his side for sure. The one and only advantage a spartan has is speed, if he gives the Sm a single opening he is dead. Likewise with the speed there if the Sm makes a mistake he is likely dead.

I don't think an unarmed Spartan could inflict the damage required to kill a Space Marine.

 Kaldor wrote:


You just added a foot of height and three thousand pounds of weight to the Astartes. Jesus H Christ people, try to keep it together.

You know what a fight between a Spartan and an Astartes would look like? The Rumble in the Jungle. Who won that one, the big guy or the fast guy?

In their armor, Marines are flipping heavy. And there are eight foot tall Marines. On average, Astartes appear to be between 7'5 and 8'0, with the Primarchs being even bigger.

But now we aren't in armor. So take the '5 off the Astartes. Now he's still the larger man, and just as fast and strong out of his armor, with the additional reinforcement to his own body. A chest that can shrug off small arms fire like airsoft pellets is going to take one hell of a beating in a fist fight.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Spartans - pinnacle bio engineered warrior. They don't get much better than they already are.
Marines are a base line, a mass produced bio engineered warrior. They dont get much better than they already are

The Spartans regularly destroyed the covenant but 36ish Spartans can not win entire wars that include navel battles that Spartans can not command.

fixed that entire thing for you for you

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Likewise, Spartans can flip Scorpions, which are at least as heavy as a Russ.

That's a game mechanic. If we go by game mechanics, Spartans are really easy to kill.

 Omegus wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The OP asked about unarmored fight. Kinda a bar room brawl, the Sm does have size and str on his side for sure. The one and only advantage a spartan has is speed, if he gives the Sm a single opening he is dead. Likewise with the speed there if the Sm makes a mistake he is likely dead.

I don't think an unarmed Spartan could inflict the damage required to kill a Space Marine.

A basic Imperial Guardsman can kill a Marine if he hit the marine in the right spot. A Spartan is equal or at least almost as strong in strength as a Marine.


I estimate a Spartan would have a Strength of 4 on TT along with a BS 4, WS 4, Inti. of 4.

I believe that a Spartan woudl have a toughness of 3 however which is why I would put my money on a marine, because they can take a greater beating

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Okay, so they can take their pants off. That's reassuring. Must chafe like crazy wearing titanium codpieces all way.

But again, that just means they are losing the mobility advantages of their armor and AI enhancements. Mjolnir Armor focuses on agility and flexibility. Powered Armor focuses on heavy defense and crowd control.

No man they do not. Everything quoted so far is unarmored. They have A.I assisted implants and all that jazz outside the armor. The armor itself can upgrade to a ship style A.I and does give boosts to speed and power and all that. But that has not been factored into this so far. Unarmored at rest the Spartan is damned fast. The wiki gave a guesstimate of what that speed is, they literally see things in slow motion at will.

 Omegus wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Likewise, Spartans can flip Scorpions, which are at least as heavy as a Russ.

That's a game mechanic. If we go by game mechanics, Spartans are really easy to kill.

and Space Marines are no better than cannon fodder with decent weapons

A basic Imperial Guardsman can kill a Marine if he hit the marine in the right spot. A Spartan is equal or at least almost as strong in strength as a Marine.

you know weapon calcs. a lasgun hit is the same strength of a ~6kg of ANFO

2.5-3 meters is mentioned in nearly every BL book.

Kelly 087 is recorded as the fastests spartan running at 38.5 mph,

john 117 briefly hit 65.2 mph testing the mark 5 armor, before tearing his achillies tendon because the strain was to much....

 Galdos wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

In 27 years of service only something like 3 Spartan II were ever KIA and one critically injued before the Battle of Reach. (I just looked it up, thats right)

You dont know what you are talking about I hate to say it.

This was also supose to be even numbers. I got the impression 1 on 1 but 4 on 4 works just as well.



Every time I come back this topic is more and more of a mess. Im starting to think we should just call it quits

Spartans are never listed as KIA, only missing in action. That isn't because they were still alive, but because the Spartan program was a propaganda tool to create the impression of Invincible warriors. Most of those MIAs were killed during Reach, but several more were slain after the Installation 04 Survivors arrived at Reach to pick up survivors. Several more were killed on Onyx, and three were left drifting in Deep Space aboard the Spirit of Fire.

"In the last decade of combat there has only been three KIAs and one Spartan too woounded to continue action" Fall of Reach page 240 in a briefing before the battle of Reach.

Which was subsequently retconned by the proceeding material.

William-043: Killed on Onyx
Li-008: Killed by a plasma bolt
Vinh-030: Killed in a bomb detonation
Isaac-039: Killed by bomb detonation
Anton-044: killed by plasma blast
Grace-093: Ripped apart by Brute Shots
Joshua-029: Caught in a nuclear explosion
James-005: Died in vacuum over Reach.
Jorge: Killed taking out a Covenant supercarrier.

Reach was a massacre, and those Spartans that survived were killed in rather conventional means, or just bad luck. MIA is only UNSC policy for propaganda reasons.

I will give the Spartans this though, their training program had a much higher survival rate than a Space Marines. A 1/2 success rate is much better than the 1 in 1000 of Astartes.

 Galdos wrote:

and Space Marines are no better than cannon fodder with decent weapons

On topic... so the argument is that SPARTAN would win because he is faster? Space Marines can fight Eldar in close combat too and win, are you telling me that SPARTANS are faster then Eldar in close combat?

One more important part the everybody have forgotten here - OP clarified who would actually fight, I will cite him now:

and what if it where John (Master Chief) vs. a space marine hero (i.e. draigo, calgar, lysander).

so this is not random Space Marine vs. random SPARTAN fight. It's Master Chief vs either Draigo or Calgar or Lysander or Mephiston or Helbrecht or Cato Sicarius or Grimnar...
So here we have Master Chief in close combat wit hone of the most veteran Space Marines in existence, who were able to fight entire army's and won.
Are you still voting for Chief Here? I love Chief, but I doubt he could stand against a guys who normally beat demigods in close combat...

 Galdos wrote:
A basic Imperial Guardsman can kill a Marine if he hit the marine in the right spot.

With his bare hands? I'd like to see you prove that statement.

A Spartan is equal or at least almost as strong in strength as a Marine.

Based on?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
On topic... so the argument is that SPARTAN would win because he is faster? Space Marines can fight Eldar in close combat too and win, are you telling me that SPARTANS are faster then Eldar in close combat?

Space Marines also fight untrained cultists and get killed. Are you saying a Spartan is slower than a cultist?

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

In 27 years of service only something like 3 Spartan II were ever KIA and one critically injued before the Battle of Reach. (I just looked it up, thats right)

You dont know what you are talking about I hate to say it.

This was also supose to be even numbers. I got the impression 1 on 1 but 4 on 4 works just as well.



Every time I come back this topic is more and more of a mess. Im starting to think we should just call it quits

Spartans are never listed as KIA, only missing in action. That isn't because they were still alive, but because the Spartan program was a propaganda tool to create the impression of Invincible warriors. Most of those MIAs were killed during Reach, but several more were slain after the Installation 04 Survivors arrived at Reach to pick up survivors. Several more were killed on Onyx, and three were left drifting in Deep Space aboard the Spirit of Fire.

"In the last decade of combat there has only been three KIAs and one Spartan too woounded to continue action" Fall of Reach page 240 in a briefing before the battle of Reach.

Which was subsequently retconned by the proceeding material.

William-043: Killed on Onyx
Li-008: Killed by a plasma bolt
Vinh-030: Killed in a bomb detonation
Isaac-039: Killed by bomb detonation
Anton-044: killed by plasma blast
Grace-093: Ripped apart by Brute Shots
Joshua-029: Caught in a nuclear explosion
James-005: Died in vacuum over Reach.
Jorge: Killed taking out a Covenant supercarrier.

Reach was a massacre, and those Spartans that survived were killed in rather conventional means, or just bad luck. MIA is only UNSC policy for propaganda reasons.

I will give the Spartans this though, their training program had a much higher survival rate than a Space Marines. A 1/2 success rate is much better than the 1 in 1000 of Astartes.

And you completely failed to read apperently. First none of that is a retcon. Thats like saying Luke destorying the Death Star in ANH has been retconned because Lando destorys it in RotJ.


In the book the Battle of Reach only 3 KIAs currently exist. However they are not listed as KIAs because, like you said, propaganda. That doesnt change anything though, by the time of the Battle of Reach, 3 spartans have died in combat, simple fact.

You than listed several Spartans that died AFTER Reach/during Reach which doenst change the fact that the Spartans have a pretty damn good record until Reach where things completely changed and they became tasked doing things they should never have done under normal circumstances.

 Kaldor wrote:

Space Marines also fight untrained cultists and get killed. Are you saying a Spartan is slower than a cultist?

That's rare, only one in million maybe is lucky enough to kill him. Same with SPARTANS, how many of them were killed by those small Covenant xenos?
On the other hand Astartes are able to fight Eldar equally in almost every fight when it comes to close combat. But I will give SPARTANS credit there too as they were able to dodge Elite's from time to time and kill them.
But I really doubt they are faster than Eldar on whom Astartes fight almost equally ( for source read BL novels or just see DoW Ii intro when Assault marines are fighting Eldar ).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

A Spartan is equal or at least almost as strong in strength as a Marine.

Based on?

Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Space Marines also fight untrained cultists and get killed. Are you saying a Spartan is slower than a cultist?

That's rare, only one in million maybe is lucky enough to kill him. Same with SPARTANS, how many of them were killed by those small Covenant xenos?

200 Dark Angels were killed by Cultists in a single engagement on Vraks.