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 kenshin620 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At $25, I would agree with you. At 25GBP, a rulebook and a mini just don't seem like a good value anymore. Especially if the rules aren't your main interest.

Arent most "serious" attempts at wargaming rules usually $30-50 though? Thats pretty in line with what most companies offer including Warlord's rulesets some of which which Rick wrote

Now granted it is easier to fork over when the book is out to entirely know how the game is gonna be like with reviews and stuff. I know many people who disliked/dropped Bolt Action when they found the rules too movie like by reading forum posts and reviews.

Are we talking about rule sets that have been played and discussed for years, with a built-in gaming scene?

I recently downloaded free Mantic KoW and Warpath rules, Free Infinity rules, free Judge Dredd rules, free pdf rules for...I don't know, friends of Reaper Brian? I can get one of the more highly regarded fantasy rulesets for $10 and plenty of cheap SF rule sets. Untested committee-enhanced rules for $30 don't sound like a good bargain at all.

I get that a big selling point is that it's a "Rick Priestley" game. That just isn't enough for me. The green of Hansa I nice, I guess , but tat this point there just isn't a ton that sucking me into the universe. At this point, ill wait for skirmish rules set in the Sedition Wars universe, which I'm really really starting to like.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At $25, I would agree with you. At 25GBP, a rulebook and a mini just don't seem like a good value anymore. Especially if the rules aren't your main interest.

Arent most "serious" attempts at wargaming rules usually $30-50 though? Thats pretty in line with what most companies offer including Warlord's rulesets some of which which Rick wrote

Yes, you're right.

£25 for a glossy rulebook plus a high quality limited edition figure looks like good value to me.

 Melcavuk wrote:
The note was there from the beginning, or atleast from when I pledged.

Fair enough then.

cincydooley wrote:Call me crazy, but I shouldn't have to watch an hour long video to understand what the game is about......

I agree, and the kickstarter features a wall of text, with too little info on what the game is about, the factions of the game. pictures, etc and too much text that drones on and on about nothing.

kenshin620 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At $25, I would agree with you. At 25GBP, a rulebook and a mini just don't seem like a good value anymore. Especially if the rules aren't your main interest.

Arent most "serious" attempts at wargaming rules usually $30-50 though? Thats pretty in line with what most companies offer including Warlord's rulesets some of which which Rick wrote

I agree that the price is fair, but usually kickstarter toss in a bit of a discount, to get people pledging versus picking it up later. Maybe that *is* the discount price, and they're already pulling a GW, trying to charge a premium price for what we're not really sure is a premium product.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

On the furry stuff: I generally consider anthropomorphic animals the worst of both worlds, but this picture from Magic: the Gathering is one I rather like.

cincydooley wrote:Call me crazy, but I shouldn't have to watch an hour long video to understand what the game is about......

They should get Lore in 60 seconds to review their stuff, that'll speed things up

scipio.au wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At $25, I would agree with you. At 25GBP, a rulebook and a mini just don't seem like a good value anymore. Especially if the rules aren't your main interest.

Arent most "serious" attempts at wargaming rules usually $30-50 though? Thats pretty in line with what most companies offer including Warlord's rulesets some of which which Rick wrote

Now granted it is easier to fork over when the book is out to entirely know how the game is gonna be like with reviews and stuff. I know many people who disliked/dropped Bolt Action when they found the rules too movie like by reading forum posts and reviews.

When we talk about going in just for the rulebook, the issue I have is really Rick Priestly vs The Internet.

Aside from cincy's post above which makes a great point (I also have no interest in trawling through their forums) I'd probably buy a rulebook from RP if it had good reviews, or possibly sight-unseen from a KS like this if I trusted it to be written by RP and had a strong visual direction. When I say "vs The Internet" - I mean the whole "design by committee" aspect puts me off, and massively so. The linked thread on gender politics? The argument between Hansa and Hansolo-a? Most of the threads on that board? No thanks, I don't really want to buy in to their vision, sight unseen. :(

With campaigns that have a bunch of models/greens/concept art pieces, that risk is negated somewhat.

Well I suppose

In fact one thing I am wondering is when are they gonna throw down the hammer and say "hey guys thanks for all the suggestions but we really need to print this book now"

Okay, WHY is there no art up yet? I get the feeling that the team is giving up due to it. I remember the Trollforged kickstarter blasting them out at incredible speeds. A new creature would be announced, some brand new artwork shown by the next day, sometimes even quicker. Then everyone would give a bit of input and the artist would make the necesary changes in no time! I personally suggested a change to one of the aliens which caught on among others and it was not even a few hours until we saw a rough mock-up of the idea.

At this point I don't even care if the art is any good or not, I just need something! Maybe one of the pledgers on dakka could suggest that they recruit a digital artist the same as Trollforged did as that allows them to make changes to the image much easier than paper and pencil?

The funniest thing is Trollforged probably didn't even have an "...and YOU!" gimmick, did they?

Nope, Ed is just a freaking trooper and takes feedback like a champ. He even took input on one of the sculpts he was working on during the project.

Just watched the video interview on BoW with Priestly and co, and a few observations;

1) The enthusiasm and energy that Priestly has for this universe is painfully lacking in the actual campaign,

2) It's very clear that Priestly had some very definite ideas about the universe, the factions, what races would look like and so on,

3) The collaborative elements of the pitch are painful to listen to. Like, time-share pitch in Florida painful.

4) This is stupidly ambitious. They aren't trying to make the rules for a skirmish game, or a mass battle game, or an RPG/persistent unit game... they're trying to make all three at once?!

That said, some rather interesting small insights into GW culture around 55minutes.

Overall, watching that just reinforced the feeling that this campaign is just... off. Seriously, listening to Priestly talk about the universe he has created, it's a fine example of "infectious enthusiasm", but it just grinds to a halt when they get into the mechanics of how the community is involved. Then you actually go to the forums, and there is just so much... stuff.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
At $25, I would agree with you. At 25GBP, a rulebook and a mini just don't seem like a good value anymore. Especially if the rules aren't your main interest.

To me the rules are the main focus. At least for now. I got tons of unpainted lead, but I'm always interested in reading new rules. Of course, seeing new shiny stuff will always tempt me, like Hansa. Therefore I think they need to show more concept art at least.

Watching the BoW video you can see Rick is clearly enthusiastic about the universe he has in his head, and it actually gave me a lot of insight i didnt have so was useful.

However i also think many people can be bad on camera, i.e. shy, it sounds daft but you would be amazed how introvert people can become when on cam, but i may be wrong.

The MMO\Online world in unison thing was a bit off, but in principle a more fluid campaign system could be very welcome, unlike the 13th black crusade GW did where ....nothing happened, some chaos improvement, some imperial entrenchment.

I will stick with the campaign as i like the idea of the universe and the look of Hansa (awaiting wardrones start-up hopefully this week), there are over 35 days to go and its almost at £100k so there is deffinate interest, and it is a good concept, but a bit more images and such starting to creep out, a bit more playing with the game mechanics, which i believe we are getting a skeleton pre alpha rules to test soon too (from what i got on the vid) so lots to come hopefully.

I love Kev sculpt, but I'm totally cold regarding rules. One thing is clear to me if a group of seasoned creators, publishers don't put their money where their mouth is why should we? Some artwork should have been done by now.

I really need to see the wardrones. Considering how important they apparently are to the game, or at least how important I assume they are since every faction makes use of them, it could make or break it for me. And I don't like the few concepts they showed so far, too G1 Transformer.

Although, for some reason it seems like I can't pledge. I tried £27 for the rulebook and Hansa and all of my cards give me the same "Well this is embarrassing" error over and over. I don't know if it's because it's in the UK or what.

 NAVARRO wrote:
I love Kev sculpt, but I'm totally cold regarding rules. One thing is clear to me if a group of seasoned creators, publishers don't put their money where their mouth is why should we? Some artwork should have been done by now.

This.

I should be the target for this game, but the more (or less) I see the more apathetic I become, Show some artwork, make some minis and make some rules.

I'm just not enthused. The Hansa is a great figure, but as a Kickstarted exclusive for a Kickstarter that's failing, there's no point in getting excited about it. The ambition of the team seems to be exceeding the length of their grasp, never before has a team so untried asked for so much of so many with so little.

Are we now finished with doom and gloom?

I wonder if there are simply too many SF Kickstarters around recently to allow the wargamer userbase to keep funding them all, or even to have interest in them all.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if there are simply too many SF Kickstarters around recently to allow the wargamer userbase to keep funding them all, or even to have interest in them all.

Not only that but some miniatures publishers ( that had no KS) are already complaining this was the worst christmas ever.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if there are simply too many SF Kickstarters around recently to allow the wargamer userbase to keep funding them all, or even to have interest in them all.

Well, Warpath and Thon the Game are both likely to go up within the first half year. We'll see than I guess. Next Sedition Wars expansion will likely also hit this year (possibly without KS).

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Are we now finished with doom and gloom?

While I agree that some of it is getting a bit melodramatic/overly poetic, I sadly think the Doom and Gloom will be with us to the end on this one.

 scipio.au wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Are we now finished with doom and gloom?

While I agree that some of it is getting a bit melodramatic/overly poetic, I sadly think the Doom and Gloom will be with us to the end on this one.

Yes and no.

I think what will (likely) "make or break" it is the Wardrone. There are some ~450 backers in at the starter box or above. Meaning they have pledged for 20 (starter box) or multiples of 40 (feeder and mutliples) of the wardrone unseen. If the wardrone is gak, I expect this'll sink fast.

On the other hand, there are some ~250 backers in "waiting", including a good 100 in the GBP 1,- pledge and a few more (like me) in the GBP 25,- pledge. If the wardrone persuades those to move up, it'll be back on track at least, with new vigour in the trends and projections.

Might wanna call it the "half-a-million-dollar-sculpt" right now. I don't envy the sculptor sitting on it right now

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if there are simply too many SF Kickstarters around recently to allow the wargamer userbase to keep funding them all, or even to have interest in them all.

Not only that but some miniatures publishers ( that had no KS) are already complaining this was the worst christmas ever.

I think there's some truth in what Killkrazy says here, but the "Priestly factor" I think makes this one stand out - at least enough to get way more people to take an initial look at it than it would have otherwise. Unfortunately, for the many reason we've discussed, it's not particularly sticky or appealing from that point.

I have the feeling that the "worst Christmas ever" deal may be in part related to all these kickstarters. While people do go a bit "above and beyond" in their KS spending (in the same way they go nuts on eBay auction bidding), something like the Kingdom Death KS takes a lot of hobby money out of circulation. Add in things like Reaper, Mantic's pair, CMON's series... Speaking for myself at least. I've been meaning to get around to making decent sized orders with Puppetswar, Vic Minis, Eureka, Forgeworld and a couple of other places, but KS has eaten a lot of that disposable income. I'm sure Forgeworld wouldn't notice the difference nearly as easily, but the smaller places take a lot less to feel a hit.

Having said that, I feel that if this one was more attractive from the get-go, the money would be found.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if there are simply too many SF Kickstarters around recently to allow the wargamer userbase to keep funding them all, or even to have interest in them all.

I think it's failing on its own merits. Even if we had more information, the post-singularity setting seems like a poor fit for this sort of game.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if there are simply too many SF Kickstarters around recently to allow the wargamer userbase to keep funding them all, or even to have interest in them all.

I think this is definitely part of the problem. Especially in terms of how this KS is presented compared to the others - Reaper Bones for instance, which had an instant appeal with its diagrams and little map. This one you have to do a lot more digging to find the meat inside - and there is a lot of meat. It's just that to an outsider it looks rather unprocessed at the moment. Watch that Rick Priestly video, spend some times on the forum, and you will find that's not the case and there is actually the potential for a massive, rump-steak the likes of which we haven't seen before (OK.. I will stop the meat analogy now.. )

 Zweischneid wrote:

I think what will (likely) "make or break" it is the Wardrone. There are some ~450 backers in at the starter box or above. Meaning they have pledged for 20 (starter box) or multiples of 40 (feeder and mutliples) of the wardrone unseen. If the wardrone is gak, I expect this'll sink fast.

On the other hand, there are some ~250 backers in "waiting", including a good 100 in the GBP 1,- pledge and a few more (like me) in the GBP 25,- pledge. If the wardrone persuades those to move up, it'll be back on track at least, with new vigour in the trends and projections.

Might wanna call it the "half-a-million-dollar-sculpt" right now. I don't envy the sculptor sitting on it right now

Just bear in mind that the 1 quid level also gets you the Pre-Alpha, Alpha and Beta rules, and access to their forums when/if the project goes on. It'd be ...optimistic to assume that most of those pledges will jump to 100 quid on the appearance of a single nice model.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Are we now finished with doom and gloom?

On the other hand, there are some ~250 backers in "waiting", including a good 100 in the GBP 1,- pledge and a few more (like me) in the GBP 25,- pledge. If the wardrone persuades those to move up, it'll be back on track at least, with new vigour in the trends and projections.

Might wanna call it the "half-a-million-dollar-sculpt" right now. I don't envy the sculptor sitting on it right now

Thats a fantastic way to look at it to be honest Zweischneid. Hopefully the sculptor is VERY good under pressure.

This could be the first KS I throw in on. I love the social aspect, being able to partake in episodes sounds fantastic. Being a recovering MMO addict, I think that's what is missing for me is engagement and interactivity with the community at large where our actions count.

That said, I don't like polished sci fi. I like the grit of 40k, Orks and Chaos. Before I invest financially, I want to make sure that there is a faction I want to invest myself in. The first thing I would look at in MMO's is the factions. So let's see a bit more! It doesn't even have to be models for me, concept sketches would do.

 scipio.au wrote:

I have the feeling that the "worst Christmas ever" deal may be in part related to all these kickstarters. While people do go a bit "above and beyond" in their KS spending (in the same way they go nuts on eBay auction bidding), something like the Kingdom Death KS takes a lot of hobby money out of circulation. Add in things like Reaper, Mantic's pair, CMON's series... Speaking for myself at least. I've been meaning to get around to making decent sized orders with Puppetswar, Vic Minis, Eureka, Forgeworld and a couple of other places, but KS has eaten a lot of that disposable income. I'm sure Forgeworld wouldn't notice the difference nearly as easily, but the smaller places take a lot less to feel a hit.

Having said that, I feel that if this one was more attractive from the get-go, the money would be found.

That's my feeling too, so many high profile KS are draining all the money away from other companies... strange times and I wonder if on the bottom line these KS's are actually not in the best interest for the industry. We do have to wait and see.