Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Presenting the final Mr Hansa, pre-painting ofcourse.

He's still got the ass-plates, what the hell?! I thought they said they'd get rid of these in the video?!

I gotta say, this project never looked all that good for me, and the goal to raise money keeps getting higher and higher...

 plastictrees wrote:
The number of comments on the KS page is telling IMO. All the activity is obviously on the forums etc. so you need to be the sort of person that wants to dig in to all of that in order to be engaged by the enthused backers.

What turned me off the forums is when I voiced a few concerns about the lack of info/images, they gave me a GW-esque, don't like it, GTFO response. That's fine if you're GW, but you can't really do that when *you're* the one going around hat in hand, looking for donations. The guys on the fourms seem really oblivious.

For both reasons, if I do pledge money, my cash will be going towards the Bughunt Corridors, which look simply superb.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

The... er... ass plates, as you call them, do stand out quite a bit on this model

 Rolt wrote:

 Commander Cain wrote:

Oh I am keeping an eye out of course! The fact that I already have 200+ models from other kickstarters already is also keeping me at bay for the moment!

200+ kickstarter miniatures..... what the hell have you been doing!, do you really hate your bank balance that much.

Well ya know. Dreadball, Trollforge, Sedition Wars, Dreamforge... It piles up pretty fast!

Come to think of it. That adds up to waay more that 200. More like, ahem. 400. Oh what have I done?!

I can't believe you guys are getting all butthurt over the ass plates.

I think the buttplates actually look pretty cool. I can understand the dislike, but I don't agree with it.

chris_valera 497777 5210788 wrote:
For both reasons, if I do pledge money, my cash will be going towards the Bughunt Corridors, which look simply superb.

You were never in for this project anyway. To be honest, most of your posts in this thread come across as trolling.

 plastictrees wrote:

Let not have a "This doesn't fit my definition of what a kickstarter should be!" debate.

Quite. While comparing the advantages to rolled out content vs. the Gates of Antares development stage might be on topic--let's try and avoid subjective arguments on what Kickstarter is or isn't. Kickstarter has hosted the project---so let's keep this thread on the topic of Gates of Antares--not the ideological underpinnings of Kickstarter. Thanks.

Ryan

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:

Let not have a "This doesn't fit my definition of what a kickstarter should be!" debate.

Quite. While comparing the advantages to rolled out content vs. the Gates of Antares development stage might be on topic--let's try and avoid subjective arguments on what Kickstarter is or isn't. Kickstarter has hosted the project---so let's keep this thread on the topic of Gates of Antares--not the ideological underpinnings of Kickstarter. Thanks.

Ryan

And ass-plates, don't forget the ass-plates.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Arseplates aside, the more I think about it, the more I'd be concerned about the whole community driving direction idea. For me, it comes across as needing a technoutopian "one community" where everyone is fair and just. In reality, the forum will just be a mass of competitions where different groups try to get what they want. The metagame will become massive, it won't take long for groups to form to try to game the system and how can you tell that battle x logged as happening right now is even going ahead or isn't being swung to the benefit of certain groups.

Soon the background won't really matter as forum alliance y is busily concerned in ensuring that forum group z suffers, no matter what the cost to the game...

This is assuming no management or control capability of any kind on the part of the forum and development staff, which sounds rather dubious, and that the playerbase will turn into a ****show, which isn't necessarily the case.

Similar theories have worked well in other cases (Legend of the 5 Rings comes to mind where the story generally follows the successes of the tournament circuit), and there's lots of games where forum player groups aren't constant jerks to each other the way they often are with Warhammer/Magic.

It's certainly possible it all goes to pot, but lets not make it out like it's a certainty.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This is assuming no management or control capability of any kind on the part of the forum and development staff, which sounds rather dubious, and that the playerbase will turn into a ****show, which isn't necessarily the case.

Similar theories have worked well in other cases (Legend of the 5 Rings comes to mind where the story generally follows the successes of the tournament circuit), and there's lots of games where forum player groups aren't constant jerks to each other the way they often are with Warhammer/Magic.

It's certainly possible it all goes to pot, but lets not make it out like it's a certainty.

That's assuming everyone comes to the one forum where they all agree to be policed. But human nature is against them if they are hoping that people won't even try to game the system a little. If this becomes big, then it'll be even more of a problem.

zedmeister wrote:
That's assuming everyone comes to the one forum where they all agree to be policed.

That's quite an easy problem to control then, you only collect and act on information when it's done through the channels you've set up for that task.

But human nature is against them if they are hoping that people won't even try to game the system a little. If this becomes big, then it'll be even more of a problem.

That's true enough of anything, but it's also why the final say and determination would be up to the game development staff and not just plugged into an algorithm and blindly applied without some oversight.

Still doesn't preclude efforts to game the system.

I can see two possible scenarios:

1 - In order to preserve the background, they tighten up the whole live universe thing up so much to prevent metagame abuse and attempts to game the system, that it stops being a live universe but a heavily moderated universe with only after action reports or similar (so battle reports, really).

2 - the metagame becomes so rampant, that they'll allow alliances and corporations and guilds. If this should happen, the backstory will really become an afterthought as diametrically opposed races (as per the backstory) will be in the same alliance fighting side by side.

Extremes? Perhaps, but the whole live universe thing and community driven ideal just sounds so ambitious with its own inherent challenges that it could sink the game by itself...

@Chris

Well, showing up on the forum and showing your willie to everyone is not exactly what I would call good manners and so I am not surprised they did not love you that much.


Normally the saying goes that Germans are the ones that have doubts and doubts, but reading this thread we have to rewrite sayings. Quite some would not even recognize a good project if it would dance naked before them.

Good projects are most often not the ones with alle the blingbling and shiny stuff, but they do have substance at the core, which this KS does have. OK it takes a leap of faith somewhere, but in the end one it is duely rewarded. And that´s what I can see in this project.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
@Chris

<...snip...>

Quite some would not even recognize a good project if it would dance naked before them.

Good projects are most often not the ones with alle the blingbling and shiny stuff, but they do have substance at the core, which this KS does have. OK it takes a leap of faith somewhere, but in the end one it is duely rewarded. And that´s what I can see in this project.

That's an arrogant attitude to take with quite a lot of snobbery thrown in - something that will put potential backers off. I just hope it isn't representative of the community as a whole. I've pulled out of this because there is no substance there as yet. There are some nebulous concepts and an ambition there but the lack of, well, anything even though we are half way through the kickstarter isn't a good thing. Poor show.

However, I still can be convinced and my canceled pledge reversed - they really need to pull something huge out of the hat to get this going or enthusiasm will wain and despair will set in...

I'd agree there is no need to get nasty to potential or non-backers, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and it is only by gauging the community that anyone can adapt and improve, there is alot of lively discussion going on over on the GoA forums however for now I know alot of people here are eagerly awaiting modelling greens and concept art that has been promised to arrive soon. I think once we see wardrone and possibly some Pan art it will be the decider of in or out for alot of the maybes.

Personally I've invested but I can understand why some people are holding off for now, I just hope the upcoming greens are enough to convince people.

You call it snobbery, I call it being realistic and let´s be honest, quite some folks on DakkaDakka are not very realistic. Give them a well run company and they would run it into the ground within a month.

And it is better to only have those people on board that don´t leave the boat when it is not sunshine than having to try to please every whim of some fine-weather-people.

Sorry, for being direct and honest, but worked quite well for me and my surrounding for the last 38 years, so why should I change.

I've probably been guilty of appearing hostile to some of the critics, and I'd like to apologise for that. I just find it weird that the very things that are making me so excited about this project - getting in on the ground floor at the beginning of development, having an input on the design and building the universe - seem to be the same things putting other people off. Maybe its because I'm a wannabe game designer myself, but I find it incredible that others aren't as enthused as I am.

I'm in at the £25 level at the moment, because it's all I can afford at the moment. If I had the money, I'd be in for the £125 Feeder at least.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
You call it snobbery, I call it being realistic and let´s be honest, quite some folks on DakkaDakka are not very realistic. Give them a well run company and they would run it into the ground within a month.

And it is better to only have those people on board that don´t leave the boat when it is not sunshine than having to try to please every whim of some fine-weather-people.

Sorry, for being direct and honest, but worked quite well for me and my surrounding for the last 38 years, so why should I change.

Or, to read it another way: "We don't want your sort round here" and "It's my way or the highway". Nice way to encourage potentials - you're not really selling this very well at all are you.

Realistic is about having something more than a nebulous concept. I don't expect a finished product. I expect to see basic concepts, ideas, direction, style which is not asking much - if they want me and others to be a patron of this, then they need to do more and judging from the comments, I'm not the only one. In fact, to me a lot seems to be gambling on the concepts for the Wardrones - these concepts really, and I mean really, need to deliver. That's a hell of a task for a small set of models.

I really want to be in on this, but I can't see anything that excites me at present (I was even down for the limited edition rulebook).

pgmason wrote:
I've probably been guilty of appearing hostile to some of the critics, and I'd like to apologise for that. I just find it weird that the very things that are making me so excited about this project - getting in on the ground floor at the beginning of development, having an input on the design and building the universe - seem to be the same things putting other people off. Maybe its because I'm a wannabe game designer myself, but I find it incredible that others aren't as enthused as I am.

I'm in at the £25 level at the moment, because it's all I can afford at the moment. If I had the money, I'd be in for the £125 Feeder at least.

Oh, I am.

I am in the Mantic Warpath 2.0 feedback thread (with Alessio Cavatore being at least as "celebrity" as Rick P.), the DreamForge Iron-Core rules development. I looked at the freely available (pre-Kickstarter) rule sets for things like Wrath of Kings, Kensai and others. I've been meaning to give the freely available Wild West Exodus beta-rules a look. Thon the Game also went to some great few months of community-driven rules development for their soon to come sci-fi miniature wargaming Kickstarter.

All of those have some distinct advantages over the GoA one IMO.

- They are "free" to participate in for the community, making you feel less exploited as not even "free labour", but "labour that actually pays for the privilege"
- They have test-rules published as pdfs to actually look at and try out.
- They are all have preliminary artwork, concepts or even some miniatures already to give you an idea on where it is going.

Zedmeister.

That´s my personal opinion and not someone elses. If you can´t live with it, your problem. But don´t blame others for my opinion.

I would be with you if we were a few days before the KS ends, but it is not even half-time. They have time until the last day to deliver. If they have not delivered until then, it´s their problem.

I am in with my pledge (£190), i am happy at the finished Hansa and am looking forward to the next green project as i really like the drone idea.

Some Ishard concept images would be good for me.

However no money has left my bank, i am happy for it to sit there until we know more, i think next week will be sink or swim in terms of getting funding.

If by final week there isnt anything more than hansa, a drone and maybe one other green i would be unhappy, however if we get bare bones ruleset to practice with i would be much happier, as i am in for this with the game as much as some more plastic crack to have on my shelf.

Some of the negative points raised on the 2 forums have been valid, and the past few days has seen a flatlining of pledges, but as i say, if after next week we get no art\greens etc etc, then i think more will leave simply from apathy. Okay its maybe not right, but its human nature, people need to be kept entertained with tidbits.

I want to see this work, and Rick has said if the KS doesnt work, they will seek other sources of funding, so i hope the game does happen as its a universe i like the fluff of so far.

Rick_1138 wrote:

I want to see this work, and Rick has said if the KS doesnt work, they will seek other sources of funding, so i hope the game does happen as its a universe i like the fluff of so far.

And herein lies the HUGE problem. When the KS fails, they will not receive funding from other sources using only the 'information' provided in the Kickstarter page. Simply isn't going to happen.

I don't think miniature game creation works like book publishing, so I don't know that anyone is going to be willing to give Rick Priestly a $450K advance based solely on his previous work.

 cincydooley wrote:

Rick_1138 wrote:

I want to see this work, and Rick has said if the KS doesnt work, they will seek other sources of funding, so i hope the game does happen as its a universe i like the fluff of so far.

And herein lies the HUGE problem. When the KS fails, they will not receive funding from other sources using only the 'information' provided in the Kickstarter page. Simply isn't going to happen.

I don't think miniature game creation works like book publishing, so I don't know that anyone is going to be willing to give Rick Priestly a $450K advance based solely on his previous work.

To be honest, if this campaign fails, the obvious move is to do another campaign with a slightly less lofty goal and a correspondingly lower funding level. Say, 2 factions at 100k GBP?

The value of that is it will almost certainly fund, and quite possibly, since by then they should have loads of "stuff" to show, they can go on to fund the other factions.

In other words, they can do what they ought to have done the first time around. As of right now, the "Pledges per day to succeed" just keeps getting higher...

To be fair, most of the big KS's so far saw relatively flat funding at their midpoint, with huge drives at the end (Ogre, Sedition Wars, etc), so I'm not sure it's something to be spectacularly concerned with yet, especially seeing as this still has as much time to go as those ran in their entirety.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, most of the big KS's so far saw relatively flat funding at their midpoint, with huge drives at the end (Ogre, Sedition Wars, etc), so I'm not sure it's something to be spectacularly concerned with yet, especially seeing as this still has as much time to go as those ran in their entirety.

That's not categorically true: there are patterns that emerge in campaigns, as I have tried to ferret out, and while some campaigns do reach extraordinary heights at the end, those kinds of increases are dependant on a number of factors. The first, and most important factor in my analysis so far, is the availability of add-ons, which allow for backers to increase their existing pledges, as well as inflating the buy-in size of new backers. While there are "add-ons" for BtGoA, they consist at the moment of additional amounts of war drones (which look like?), shirts (everyone always tries to sell shirts...), game books and starter boxes. Oh, and increases to the custom army size. So you can add... stuff. Can't add campaign exclusive models (odd), no tie-ins, add-ons are simply the things you can already get or could get retail.

It's also important to note that "flat funding" for most campaigns means a generally lower (not low) baseline, that ticks up at the end. Kingdom Death had a long valley of pledges... but a valley there meant about $12k per day. BtGoA already has multiple days with single digit backer totals and sub 1k GBP pledges. Remember also, the vast majority of projects of the "big KS's" were funded in days, if not hours. BtGoA needs that last minute surge to be huge just to make their funding minimum.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, most of the big KS's so far saw relatively flat funding at their midpoint, with huge drives at the end (Ogre, Sedition Wars, etc), so I'm not sure it's something to be spectacularly concerned with yet, especially seeing as this still has as much time to go as those ran in their entirety.

Just to point something out though, all of those projects you mentioned were funded by their midpoint.

If this doesn't get funded and they decide to run it again with more planning or a lower funding goal I wonder if they'd also consider creating a shell company in the US to run this project using the USD and Amazon Payments.

The other big KS campaigns didn't see their chance of successfully funding going down 'in the middle' though...

Additionally, this one is now projecting at reaching 78% of its goal, significantly down from just a few days ago.

Buzzsaw wrote:

That's not categorically true: there are patterns that emerge in campaigns, as I have tried to ferret out, and while some campaigns do reach extraordinary heights at the end, those kinds of increases are dependant on a number of factors. The first, and most important factor in my analysis so far, is the availability of add-ons, which allow for backers to increase their existing pledges, as well as inflating the buy-in size of new backers. While there are "add-ons" for BtGoA, they consist at the moment of additional amounts of war drones (which look like?), shirts (everyone always tries to sell shirts...), game books and starter boxes. Oh, and increases to the custom army size. So you can add... stuff. Can't add campaign exclusive models (odd), no tie-ins, add-ons are simply the things you can already get or could get retail.

It's also important to note that "flat funding" for most campaigns means a generally lower (not low) baseline, that ticks up at the end. Kingdom Death had a long valley of pledges... but a valley there meant about $12k per day. BtGoA already has multiple days with single digit backer totals and sub 1k GBP pledges. Remember also, the vast majority of projects of the "big KS's" were funded in days, if not hours. BtGoA needs that last minute surge to be huge just to make their funding minimum.

True, but they're also trying a much different route. The other KS's had much lower minimum's because, in large part, they were pre-order functions and weren't trying to raise money for design and production work. My copy of Sedition Wars that arrived last week had been nearly 3 years in the making at that point having first been made known in 2010 with the KS not showing up until 2012. In large part I feel that may have "spoiled" the playerbase in some respects because we already had entirely completed games that largely were building pre-orders and extras through their KS's.

(all that said, my copy of Ogre isn't likely to arrive until the KS has already been done for over a year )

The BtGoA KS is trying an alternate route from a much earlier point with a greater degree of input from players. Does that have its own issues? Yes, but a lot of people (not necessarily you) don't seem to be getting that it's coming from a fundamentally different position and taking a fundamentally different path than the other popular KS's we've had, with an apparently larger scope as well.

Catyrpelius wrote:

Just to point something out though, all of those projects you mentioned were funded by their midpoint.

True, but they also had minimum's of $20,000 instead of 300,000UKP and were largely completed projects by the time the KS went up.

If this doesn't get funded and they decide to run it again with more planning or a lower funding goal I wonder if they'd also consider creating a shell company in the US to run this project using the USD and Amazon Payments.

That'd be a nice idea.

Here's a small comparison I just drummed up:



They're actually pretty good comparative deals, but it's obvious the difference: with rivet wars you have some semblance of an idea what you were getting. Here...nada.

I'm sure I'll get called a CMoN-fellator for this, but I think the Relic Knights campaign is a pretty good example of what BtG should be doing. Lots of the RK models didn't exist prior to the kickstarter, but they at least had concept art of what they would/should look like. The fact that BtG has plain silhouttes is a problem....

If you're on the BtGoA KS page and you're scrolling down to that image of the deals, you should see these two concept images before getting there