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 scipio.au wrote:
Yeah, tell Yakface (the owner of this board) off for discussing something relevant to the kickstarter just because you don't want to read it!

You go, girl!

Thanks for making me chuckle! Exalted!

Presenting the final Mr Hansa, pre-painting ofcourse.

Looks really, really impressive, possibly Infinity or McVey level of detail. Now needs a pro-level paintjob, and details of the next minis and concept art to be shown!

Certainly I think if they had another 2 or 3 characters of that quality it would help the KS massively.

We can expect the Wardrones to be unveiled soon (not sure how soon soon is) and there was mention on the live chat that the Boromites (one of the selectable credit rewards) are currently in the hands of a designer/artist (no sure if we're looking at greens or concept art there) so thats another thing to look forward to.

As a proponent of metal models, I will have to disagree to the depiction of metal models and how "easy" plastic models are depicted to work with.

I believe most of the bad impressions about metal models come from GW, whose casting quality always left much to be desired, there are other manufacturers out there that do wonderful metal models that need as little work as the plastic ones including no need for pinning.

For me, comparing metal and plastic models of equal quality, they are about the same to work with, the big question is single cast or multipart and if multipart with what design in mind.

Personally, multipart plastics are blunt because the vast majority is build with the "modularity" in mind, giving wide poses so that the many different parts will fit with minimal effort, this also makes accessories look stuck in there, since they have no organic integration with the sculpt, been again made to fit as generic as it could be.

There is a reason why the new Spacehulk terminators and genestealers looked so good and dynamic, they were made as single posed models without any interchangeability or modularity in mind, of course they also illustrate the biggest problem plastic has, undercuts.

Metal models even multipart are in their majority designed to be self contained models, this makes them at good hands dynamic, fluid and organic, something plastic models usually are not because they are not made in such a way.

With all that been said, Plastics are geared towards mass armies, their nature and cost gear them towards that, for GoA were 40 models tops per side is what I understand I would rather have metal models, even single cast that have character and dynamic poses, than 3-4 blunt plastic multi part multi posed kits to justify their existence.

Just backed it last night, looking forward to this. I have to admit I've been somewhat puzzled and disappointed by much of the hostility on here towards the project, especially the naysaying based on not being as immediately successful as the Ogre or Sedition Wars kickstarters were (despite that they also raised much of their funds only in the last few days before finishing).

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just backed it last night, looking forward to this. I have to admit I've been somewhat puzzled and disappointed by much of the hostility on here towards the project, especially the naysaying based on not being as immediately successful as the Ogre or Sedition Wars kickstarters were (despite that they also raised much of their funds only in the last few days before finishing).

I must admit I am continuously puzzled and disappointed by the fact that the in-depth critique and analysis offered by the Dakka community to help make Rick Priestly his half-a-million dollars is constantly being dissed as "hostility" and "naysaying".

That is simply wrong and, ultimately, doing the project itself a great disservice by taking the focus away from the things that need to be addressed for it to succeed, as we all want it to.

I'm not saying criticism is a bad thing by any means or that it shouldn't be brought up, there are entirely relevant criticisms, but some are...uncharacteristically doomsday-ish or that really should be entirely separate business strategy oriented discussions.

 scipio.au wrote:

pgmason wrote:
I believe I've read somewhere on one of the forums that Kev White doesn't use concept sketches - he sculpts directly from a written brief. Therefore his WIP green basically was the concept sketch.

None of the three actual members of Darkspace Corp is an artist - Rick, John and Rik are rules/fluff guy, business guy and software guy respectively. All of the artists and sculptors involved are freelancers, not part of the project team itself. If they want artwork or greens they have to pay people to produce them. I know it's frustrating for some, but they can't magic up concept artwork out of nowhere.

That would then simply be DSC ponying up some personal money to get these things commissioned before the KS began. They're asking for half a million dollars. I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to have spend a few grand of heir own money in getting some art prepared for it. (Art being concept art, a few greens already done, etc.)

This has been pretty much the biggest issue so far, considering that Rick & Co have apparently been working on this for six months before the Kickstarter even began and its pretty much implied that this project is Ricks "baby", so his possibly been planning this project for a long time, why nothing "solid" to show for it? Have they honestly been working on this project for that long and at no point thought to themselves "maybe we should create some early concepts, maybe a green or two?". I understand that Rick & Co are game designers not artist, but surly they understand wargaming is largely a visual medium and the first thing a large portion of wargamers are going to look for are cool miniatures and concepts, not walls of text.

I fully understand what the GoA team are trying to achieve with this project, and I'm very interested in it, but what I don't understand is the logic/method they are using in order to achieve it. Either way I look forward to seeing the wardrones, hopefully this project will pick up, of course depending on how everyone responds to them.

 Rolt wrote:
This has been pretty much the biggest issue so far, considering that Rick & Co have apparently been working on this for six months before the Kickstarter even began and its pretty much implied that this project is Ricks "baby", so his possibly been planning this project for a long time, why nothing "solid" to show for it? Have they honestly been working on this project for that long and at no point thought to themselves "maybe we should create some early concepts, maybe a green or two?". I understand that Rick & Co are game designers not artist, but surly they understand wargaming is largely a visual medium and the first thing a large portion of wargamers are going to look for are cool miniatures and concepts, not walls of text.

I fully understand what the GoA team are trying to achieve with this project, and I'm very interested in it, but what I don't understand is the logic/method they are using in order to achieve it. Either way I look forward to seeing the wardrones, hopefully this project will pick up, of course depending on how everyone responds to them.

Perhaps it's not so much that it never occurred to them as much as they are trying to sell the make-your-own wargame aspect of Gates of Antares. Having fully fleshed out concept work and greens would have been fantastic to many of us. It would've given us a starting point for discussion on what we liked and didn't like with the designs. Dark Space Corp might have felt otherwise, figuring we might interpret such efforts as undermining community involvement in design and therefore detrimental to GoA's appeal.

Just spitballin' here.

Edit: Financial costs associated with potentially poorly received designs (and the necessary redesigns) would also be undesirable. Whereas having the designs built by developer and community interaction and then commissioning artwork and greens based on that would be cheaper by avoiding the initial, throw-away cost.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying criticism is a bad thing by any means or that it shouldn't be brought up, there are entirely relevant criticisms, but some are...uncharacteristically doomsday-ish or that really should be entirely separate business strategy oriented discussions.

The thing is... look back at the Sedition Wars, the Mantic Kickstarters and others that have featured heavily on Dakka. They have all been pretty much the same.

Yes there are a lot of posts which feature heavily the words 'I' and 'My' (usually in italics), those will always come in seemingly every page in the thread, but the most we can do is continue to post comments regarding new material about the Kickstarter as and when it is released. So I hope some of the really keen Dakkaites can continue to post regarding these, rather than just getting into slagging matches backwards and forwards, which in turn put off people who have something constructive to say.

Anyway! So my post isn't hypocritical, here are a few other titbits (sorry if they have been posted already!)

- A summary of the questions posted last night during the Reddit (which was tremendous fun, and funny at times, despite Reddit being about as usable as some kind of Linux system from 1995) on the forum http://www.darkspacecorp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=614

Pretty interesting regarding the War Drones - looks like a multi-part, customisable kit. Particularly liked the idea of them being altered for different roles, such as the 'heavy seige drone'. Apparently the 'Sims' race is now nearing completion, but the next miniatures on show will be the 'boromites' (who just have to be dwarves ) or the War Drones.

- Hansa has gone to Golem Painting Studio to be painted like one of their French girls.

 Dentry wrote:


Edit: Financial costs associated with potentially poorly received designs (and the necessary redesigns) would also be undesirable. Whereas having the designs built by developer and community interaction and then commissioning artwork and greens based on that would be cheaper by avoiding the initial, throw-away cost.

Either way, it's not for lack of funds. They run big ads on BoLS, TGNs, all the big sites (Dakkadakka too). A 160 x 600 ad of the sort they have on BoLS costs them about 2 1/2 grand a month Source: (BoLS Ads).
Others are likely not quite as expensive, but they're not free either.

As said, their logo, website design, video-animation, etc.. are all high polish too, even if they look a bit "stock-sci-fi-graphic" at times.. Those don't come for nothing either.

So they are willing to sink a few grand to advertise it. If, in light of this, they choose not to invest in even the most simple of sketches, I can only think it has some purposeful decision behind it. Not simply a lack of financial means.

I am withdrawing. To be honest, I have lost my faith in Rick and gang after reading all the fluff, watching the videos, and reading about gameplay.

It really seems like their spin on Mass Effect, Ancient warp gate left behind by previous beings.... As I look at Hansa I feel the Sci-Fi direction they are taking is not one I am really interested in. I do hope they get funded and they can bring their dream to light. They will just have to do it without me.. After they launch the game I will read reviews and follow Dakka, if it turns out to be a lot of fun and their models look good I will invest at that time.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Either way, it's not for lack of funds. They run big ads on BoLS, TGNs, all the big sites (Dakkadakka too). A 160 x 600 ad of the sort they have on BoLS costs them about 2 1/2 grand a month Source: (BoLS Ads).
Others are likely not quite as expensive, but they're not free either.

As said, their logo, website design, video-animation, etc.. are all high polish too, even if they look a bit "stock-sci-fi-graphic" at times.. Those don't come for nothing either.

So they are willing to sink a few grand to advertise it. If, in light of this, they choose not to invest in even the most simple of sketches, I can only think it has some purposeful decision behind it. Not simply a lack of financial means.

Certainly they have enough money between them to get the work done. The logo and whatnot are their purview so no additional input was needed. Which they're claiming is not the case for the actual game elements. My point was simply on avoiding 'unnecessary' costs from their perspective; measure twice, cut once.

So I'm with you in that it had to have been a choice not a limitation.

It has not been an auspicious day.


Now it's true that there is more then enough time for this to get back on track, but.. yeah...

The perfect word to describe the finished Hansa.

"Grizzled."

 Compel wrote:
The perfect word to describe the finished Hansa.

"Walrus"

So what you're saying is that Hansa is a descendant of Jamie Hyneman?

And pledge cancelled. I have to say this looked interesting in the beginning, but several things have led to me pulling out:

- The whole designed by you thing, to me, seems lazy and unhealthy for a game with this much ambition. Plus it's another insular community forum with vested interests where those with the most time to spend posting and reposting get what they want. I just want a complete ruleset dammit, I don't want to write it for you!
- No defined look or feel. No real artwork or concepts at all. Surely they must have something to show by now?
- Kickstarter by wall of text without much content. Even the back stories are a little dull

With sedition wars, we already had a compelling set of models with their interesting concepts and backgrounds. The sculpts and paint jobs were top notch and the value was excellent.

GoA just has Hansa and his generic space soldier look. You know the kind, part way through a movie or tv programme where the hero's are attacked, 12 Hansa's show up, make a flashy scene, give the hero's a little trouble and are finally mercilessly slaughtered...

Nah SW is my current choice for the foreseeable future when it comes to Sci-fi gaming - AoS will be out this year, so I'll get a second SW fix!

Volume 2
http://vimeo.com/58037447

Volume 3
http://vimeo.com/58039557

I am in the same boat as zedmeister. I had considered pledging but they have wasted away an entire month with very little to show for it. My money has gone to fund some space corridors instead!

Hey Zed & Cain (and everyone else) you guys might as well give this project a second chance till next week, apparently they will have the Wardrones WiPs and possibly some Pan-human/Boromites concepts up as well. Its best to see what direction they take with the wardrones at least since they will be a heavy deciding factor in the overall look of this uinverse/game and if they don't work for you, well thats no issue.

Just a friendly suggestion.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Dentry wrote:


Edit: Financial costs associated with potentially poorly received designs (and the necessary redesigns) would also be undesirable. Whereas having the designs built by developer and community interaction and then commissioning artwork and greens based on that would be cheaper by avoiding the initial, throw-away cost.

Either way, it's not for lack of funds. They run big ads on BoLS, TGNs, all the big sites (Dakkadakka too). A 160 x 600 ad of the sort they have on BoLS costs them about 2 1/2 grand a month Source: (BoLS Ads).
Others are likely not quite as expensive, but they're not free either.

As said, their logo, website design, video-animation, etc.. are all high polish too, even if they look a bit "stock-sci-fi-graphic" at times.. Those don't come for nothing either.

So they are willing to sink a few grand to advertise it. If, in light of this, they choose not to invest in even the most simple of sketches, I can only think it has some purposeful decision behind it. Not simply a lack of financial means.

I don't think any of that advertising was around at the launch. It was only after the Kickstater funding stuttered and when I and others suggested on the official forum that advertising might be good idea that some started to appear. That's an easy catch up job that you can add mid stream.

What's not so easy is to come up with is quality concepts and greens if you didn't have them planned at outset. It now seems they are scrambling to do that and some stuff is going to be put up next week. But it would appear that this may not be following the collaborative process outlined on the Kickstarter page but may be work that has been rushed to a more advanced stage.

It will be interesting to see what appears next week and what form it takes.

 Rolt wrote:
Hey Zed & Cain (and everyone else) you guys might as well give this project a second chance till next week, apparently they will have the Wardrones WiPs and possibly some Pan-human/Boromites concepts up as well. Its best to see what direction they take with the wardrones at least since they will be a heavy deciding factor in the overall look of this uinverse/game and if they don't work for you, well thats no issue.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Oh I am keeping an eye out of course! The fact that I already have 200+ models from other kickstarters already is also keeping me at bay for the moment!

 zedmeister wrote:

With sedition wars, we already had a compelling set of models with their interesting concepts and backgrounds. The sculpts and paint jobs were top notch and the value was excellent.

Secition Wars or Zombiecide were NOT Kickstarters.

They were Pre-Order manouvers disguised as kickstarters. It is the way "CoolMiniorNot" uses the Kickstarter platform to sell their stuff.

Thinking that a Miniature game or tabletop game project has to be already designed, sculpted, cast, painted before making the video for the Kickstarter is just wrong.
A project needs money from the base, to support all the development. The final ammount of money needed for production, for making copies of the miniatures and print the books that money can come out with pre-order.

What the guys form coolmini did with those games was a pre-order move. A FALSE Kickstarter.

 Commander Cain wrote:

Oh I am keeping an eye out of course! The fact that I already have 200+ models from other kickstarters already is also keeping me at bay for the moment!

200+ kickstarter miniatures..... what the hell have you been doing!, do you really hate your bank balance that much.

 BobbaFett wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

With sedition wars, we already had a compelling set of models with their interesting concepts and backgrounds. The sculpts and paint jobs were top notch and the value was excellent.

Secition Wars or Zombiecide were NOT Kickstarters.

They were Pre-Order manouvers disguised as kickstarters. It is the way "CoolMiniorNot" uses the Kickstarter platform to sell their stuff.

Thinking that a Miniature game or tabletop game project has to be already designed, sculpted, cast, painted before making the video for the Kickstarter is just wrong.
A project needs money from the base, to support all the development. The final ammount of money needed for production, for making copies of the miniatures and print the books that money can come out with pre-order.

What the guys form coolmini did with those games was a pre-order move. A FALSE Kickstarter.

They were able to upgrade games and push them to print sooner. It's not CMoNs fault they've had cogent campaigns with tons of visuals and actual direction and BtG is a convoluted mess hidden behind massive walls of text and other users that are supporting it simply based on Priestleys pedigree and not actual content.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

At this point I would welcome some of Priestley's personal napkin doodles, even if they are just stick figures with little diagram bubbles that say "nanotech butt plates go here--->".

I think Hansa needs a beret, so he can "bust" some ass...

 BobbaFett wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

With sedition wars, we already had a compelling set of models with their interesting concepts and backgrounds. The sculpts and paint jobs were top notch and the value was excellent.

Secition Wars or Zombiecide were NOT Kickstarters.

They were Pre-Order manouvers disguised as kickstarters. It is the way "CoolMiniorNot" uses the Kickstarter platform to sell their stuff.

Thinking that a Miniature game or tabletop game project has to be already designed, sculpted, cast, painted before making the video for the Kickstarter is just wrong.
A project needs money from the base, to support all the development. The final ammount of money needed for production, for making copies of the miniatures and print the books that money can come out with pre-order.

What the guys form coolmini did with those games was a pre-order move. A FALSE Kickstarter.

Let not have a "This doesn't fit my definition of what a kickstarter should be!" debate.

BtGoA should not need $475,000.00 to get off the ground. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a miniature game in the history of miniature gaming that had that kind of cash infusion right off the bat.

The number of comments on the KS page is telling IMO. All the activity is obviously on the forums etc. so you need to be the sort of person that wants to dig in to all of that in order to be engaged by the enthused backers.