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Considering that the guys bragged about raping her, I really doubt that she got drunk and made it up.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Considering that the guys bragged about raping her, I really doubt that she got drunk and made it up.

I never said she made it up. There is always the chance, and it happens more often than not, that the three of them got hammered, the guys bragged about doing her (I didn't watch the video linked, I'm about to head to bed), and she probably thought, "oh god what did I do?!" I'm not saying blame the victim, I'm saying give the two guys their fair fething trial and for the prosecutor to prove their guilt, rather than assume they're guilty to begin with, which happens FAR too often in cases like this.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I'm not saying blame the victim, I'm saying give the two guys their fair fething trial and for the prosecutor to prove their guilt, rather than assume they're guilty to begin with, which happens FAR too often in cases like this.

That kind of mindset is apparently not welcome here.

Doesn't stop me from agreeing with you though.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Considering that the guys bragged about raping her, I really doubt that she got drunk and made it up.

Hell, Those boy are trash man.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
Considering that the guys bragged about raping her, I really doubt that she got drunk and made it up.

Hell, Those boy are trash man.

Their jocks. What did you expect? Hell they'd be forfeiting their Jock cards by not being idiots and putting their admission of guilt on the internet for the world to see

Apparently, when a man admits he's a rapist, he's actually an innocent man just being manipulated by a drunken slut whose trying to ruin his life. She's such a drunken slut that she even convinced them that they were rapists! And because of this, they won't get a fair trial at all.

It's a shame.

 Necroshea wrote:
Why do people assume that when you blame the victim for any sort of act of stupidity, you must automatically believe the accused are innocent of all wrongdoing?

That is the point of the logic:

Girl + drunk + short skirt == Asking for it and must be punished.
Boy giving it to her == agent of social justice. Therefore boy not to blame.

I am not commenting on this specific case as I haven't read the details.

 Necroshea wrote:
@Meangreen

Two simple questions

Do you think the victim could have avoided the situation?
Do you think the victim acted foolish in any way?

You are of course aware that she is 16. I got drunk to the point of unconciousness myself at that age as I am sure most of the posters here did.

Were her actions irresponsible? Of course

Did she deserve what happened to her? Not at all.




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 LordofHats wrote:

Really? What's the public opinion on that (if you know)? That seems like a bad way to investigate rape.

To be honest it seems quite a decent system to me. Obviously there are significant flaws with this approach yet rape can be such a hard thing to prove and can have such devastating consequences for both parties that it needs to be investigated and proven as thouroughly as possible. It can't just involve the word of the 2 parties, there must be corroborating evidence and physical evidence is unreliable in 'non violent' rape.

This reminds me of the Ched Evans case a bit, except that the girl in this case was out cold.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Apparently, when a man admits he's a rapist, he's actually an innocent man just being manipulated by a drunken slut whose trying to ruin his life. She's such a drunken slut that she even convinced them that they were rapists! And because of this, they won't get a fair trial at all.

It's a shame.

Who's saying that?

Killkrazy wrote:That is the point of the logic:

Girl + drunk + short skirt == Asking for it and must be punished.
Boy giving it to her == agent of social justice. Therefore boy not to blame.

I am not commenting on this specific case as I haven't read the details.

Who's saying she deserved to be raped?

Palindrome wrote:Did she deserve what happened to her? Not at all.

I agree, who's saying otherwise?

Mattman154 wrote:

I agree, who's saying otherwise?

Necroshea was attempting to lay at least some of the blame on the girl. Did you not read the quote in my post?

Palindrome wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

I agree, who's saying otherwise?

Necroshea was attempting to lay at least some of the blame on the girl. Did you not read the quote in my post?

I don't think he was trying to lay some blame, he's just saying she should have personally been more responsible and not compromised herself like she did.

Did anyone watch the linked video? is there a part that the actually admit to raping the girl? I know I'm only 3 minutes into the video, but it just looks like a bunch of teenagers acting like drunken idiots. Which doesn't prove anything since they're just wearing OSU gear.


Edit: I had to wait till 4:35 for any sort of admission of rape... Too bad the kid who's face is in the video is not one of the perpetrators, and his face is being smeared all over the net.

I skimmed it, it's fairly horrible watching them laughing about raping her. They seem to make repeated references to her being unconscious. Around the 8 minute mark someone says something along the lines of 'what if it was your sister?' so at least someone knew that it wasn't right. But it's all laughed away. There's a bit where someone asks 'what if she was pregnant and had a dead baby?' and there seems to be much hilarity.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I skimmed it, it's fairly horrible watching them laughing about raping her. They seem to make repeated references to her being unconscious. Around the 8 minute mark someone says something along the lines of 'what if it was your sister?' so at least someone knew that it wasn't right. But it's all laughed away. There's a bit where someone asks 'what if she was pregnant and had a dead baby?' and there seems to be much hilarity.

Hopefully they learn how unfunny it is when they/their friends get their entire lives ruined by it.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I skimmed it, it's fairly horrible watching them laughing about raping her. They seem to make repeated references to her being unconscious. Around the 8 minute mark someone says something along the lines of 'what if it was your sister?' so at least someone knew that it wasn't right. But it's all laughed away. There's a bit where someone asks 'what if she was pregnant and had a dead baby?' and there seems to be much hilarity.

They do mention the suspects names and the word rape. My only concern is when was this video made? I know that Knight Sec 'leaked' it, but OSU gear and a high schooler with a camera are pretty easy things to get a hold of. I'm not defending Trent or Ma'lik*, I'd rather have this video actually be from that time instead of a hoax that throws everyone off... and gets this case a whole like more gak than it needs to...

* - It's sad I know the suspects' names, but not the victim's name.

Palindrome wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

I agree, who's saying otherwise?

Necroshea was attempting to lay at least some of the blame on the girl. Did you not read the quote in my post?

I'm running out of ways to explain that I think both parties are idiots.

 Necroshea wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

I agree, who's saying otherwise?

Necroshea was attempting to lay at least some of the blame on the girl. Did you not read the quote in my post?

I'm running out of ways to explain that I think both parties are idiots.

I think that sums it up nicely!

 Necroshea wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

I agree, who's saying otherwise?

Necroshea was attempting to lay at least some of the blame on the girl. Did you not read the quote in my post?

I'm running out of ways to explain that I think both parties are idiots.

There we go

One more logic to support 'draconism'

 Lone Cat wrote:
One more logic to support 'draconism'

eh?

Well some really classy chaps on here arnt there! . Discusted with the opinions of a few .


Saying that rape is justified or expected at any time and for any reason is moraly and legaly wrong and reprehensible.

You say you stand by the points you've made. ..? If so go and show a female you know and see if they share you outdated and frankly shamefull and worring opinions.

You should be ashamed.

 CURNOW wrote:
Saying that rape is justified or expected at any time and for any reason is morally and legally wrong and reprehensible.

Please point out who and what post says the rape was justified.

Cannot wait for this to go to trial so we can see what the facts are and not the media speculation.

I was a jock, never a scum bag though.

Things like this is why I was in favor of the end of the world last month. The Rapture in particular. I am no saint, in fact I would of stuck around for the war between heaven and hell and ultimately end up down south. Humanity can be real beautiful, but it seems the ugly side will not be outdone.

 Necroshea wrote:
I guess I'm just growing more indifferent as the days go on, but the fate of people who feel the urge to get so drunk they black out at a party just doesn't really bother me anymore.

And let's all give a quick prayer that your opinions are completely irrelevant to the workings of the justice system.


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 Necroshea wrote:
Why do people assume that when you blame the victim for any sort of act of stupidity, you must automatically believe the accused are innocent of all wrongdoing?

When you state that you feel no sympathy for the victim because they drank so much, and only state that, it is only sensible for people reading it to assume that is your full, and complete thoughts on the matter. If you held other thoughts, such that despite the victim's failings you still felt that the perpetrator's crimes needed punishment, then you should have stated that as well.

But giving a more complex, nuanced answer tends to get less of a response than a snappy dismissal of a rape victim, and we all want attention, so...


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 Necroshea wrote:
So pointing out that both parties did something bad is an unacceptable?

Except, of course, your post originally only mentioned the 'bad' act committed by the rape victim. Which isn't so much as unacceptable as so myopic as to be completely and utterly irrelevant to any sensible conversation on the issue.

And there's also the point that not all 'bad' things are the same. Drinking yourself to the point of blacking out is 'not a very good idea', while raping someone is a one of the worst crimes a person can commit. So wanting to make a serious issue of the former in the context of the latter is really quite absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mattman154 wrote:
Well I guess that's where some people differ. I don't put all my faith in people to act morally.

Which is an excellent POV before a situation has occurred, to prevent something bad happening to you or to someone you know.

But it's a completely useless POV when considering a situation that has already occurred, and how the law is working to punish those who might be guilty of crimes.

Something interesting:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Rapist-Alert-Will-Ohio-St-by-Meryl-Ann-Butler-130106-225.html

Apparently Michael Colin Nodianos and Jake Howarth (two of the boys in the video) are in college. Both boys go to college in Ohio. Nodianos goes to The Ohio State University (he was wearing a shirt from them in the video). Jake Howarth is a member of Ashland University, my fething Alma Mater >_<. Even though I've graduated, I still have my student email and got an email from the PR department about how they're investigating this. But nothing has been proven.

The university does not necessarily have to wait for a criminal case to take action.

The existence of a video of the student laughing about taking part would possibly be sufficient to expel him for the equivalent of "conduct unbecoming a gentleman and officer".

Read this thread a while ago and decided to wait to comment til I wasn't angry any more. Didn't get any less angry so I'll post now.

Necro and others supporting the view that the take home message here is that "both parties are idiots":
- One party is an innocent who made a dumbass decision. Being 16, it's not that surprising. One party (if allegations are true) has committed a heinous crime, one of the worst. Do not equivocate unless you want to look like an donkey-cave.

People who are complaining about drunk hook ups resulting in rape allegations: Don't hook up with girls when they're drunk, then. It's the same goddamned personal responsibility argument that gets trotted out at the girls in reverse. A girl who did that would rightly be reviled, but I bet you wouldn't get many saying "He let himself in for it by hooking up with a drunk girl!"

The victims of rape often face exclusion and harassment in their home communities. Attitudes like yours contribute to this environment, whether you think they do or not. You're not being a courageous defender of individual responsibility. You're being an insensitive donkey-cave.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The university does not necessarily have to wait for a criminal case to take action.

The existence of a video of the student laughing about taking part would possibly be sufficient to expel him for the equivalent of "conduct unbecoming a gentleman and officer".

Yup, my only concern is that I didn't see Jake Howarth in the video, or heard his name, so I'm worried that Ashland University is VERY quick to judge without evidence. My fraternity has gotten into plenty of judicial issues and while some of them were completely warranted, some of them were not and we got punished when evidence to the contrary was presented. We were almost kicked off campus last semester because of an comedic event we put on had non-fraternity members crossing the line. While yes we were responsible, we vetted everyone that was on stage, heard ALL of their jokes before hand and had approval from Greek Life, yet these people go away from approved jokes and we get levied with a 700 dollar fine, had to put on 2 community events 1 of which had to be about bullying, and we were on suspended probation, which meant if two or more members committed any infraction, they'd throw us off campus... Ashland has quite the history of shoot first and ask questions later. Especially with their Judeo-Christian values. They pulled a girl's scholarships because she was stripping to pay for the outrageous prices the school charges


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 Da Boss wrote:
You're being an insensitive donkey-cave.

This is true, but we don't know the facts of this case yet. We have statements from both sides, we have a WHOLE lot gak flying back and forth, we need to wait till the trial starts...