Fafnir wrote:
If the casting comes even close to the quality of the resin models, hell, if it ends up being the same quality as GW's plastics, they'll still be a far better value. At least compared to GW's more recent, and absolutely silly, offerings.

 Imperial Monkey wrote:
Out of interest, since part of the issue for many is the bad designs, would folks say that the last really good (all round releases, ie. all models bar one/maybe two) release would be IG or DE? Personally I thought Gaurd were excellent and then it went downhill a bit (I can't remember which was more recent though, guard or DE - which was also excellent).

 Fafnir wrote:
The thing is, compare the sculpts of KD models to GW's models. Way higher quality. Looking at the KD models sitting on my desk right now, I can say for certain that they blow everything GW has ever done out of the water. Furthermore, the quality of the castings themselves is fantastic, far better than GW's finecast, or even Forgeworld's offerings.

Stranger83 wrote:
OK, here is another question – what do you consider “the hobby” to be?

 Peregrine wrote:

And besides the issues that are up to personal preference, there's a reason why they're able to sell for less than GW (at least what we expect GW would charge for the same model): they don't have a full product line. They have a small number of sculptors making a very limited range of products (so they can spend lots of time on each of them), with a limited sales volume (so they don't have to sacrifice design quality for mass production), and they don't have any retail stores/fluff authors/game designers/etc to pay. They've reduced their entire business to the bare minimum required to produce a few art project models, and that's it. That's fine if you want a cool model to paint, but less useful if you're looking for a fully-developed game to play.

 Fafnir wrote:
While this is true, that doesn't justify GW's prices. Keep in mind that, at the end of the day, I'm not paying for the salesman's wage, the store's rent, the sculptor's skills, or the designer's time. I'm paying for the product.

And keep in mind, GW is not a game company, they are, by their own admission, a model company.

 Peregrine wrote:
...if GW's models weren't part of a game they wouldn't exist as a company anymore.

 Breotan wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
OK, here is another question – what do you consider “the hobby” to be?

In the context of this discussion, "the hobby" is GW centric. GW often uses that phrase as exclusively theirs along with "Build. Paint. Play." and I made this thread within that context. This includes kitbashing and converting GW product.

Obviously there are alternatives to GW and part of what people are doing is migrating, whole or in part, to other companies. I'm simply asking if the latest round of prices is providing an additional impetus to leave GW products behind.

 Imperial Monkey wrote:
Out of interest, since part of the issue for many is the bad designs, would folks say that the last really good (all round releases, ie. all models bar one/maybe two) release would be IG or DE? Personally I thought Gaurd were excellent and then it went downhill a bit (I can't remember which was more recent though, guard or DE - which was also excellent).

 Fafnir wrote:
The Hellbrute was absolutely horrendous.

PhantomViper wrote:

The rising GW prices will drive away potential new customers, but at least in my gaming group we all have (had), several complete 40K and WHFB armies that would require minimal maintenance to keep up to date with the rules if we choose to continue with GW. Besides, we are all spending just as much in our new games as we did in GW (we just get allot more "bang for our buck" for several different systems).

What drove people away from GW in my gaming group at least was the reduced quality across the board in GW's latest offerings: worse rules in WHFB and 40K, worse fiction and lets be honest, worse design quality of their models.

Stranger83 wrote:

To me "the hobby" also includes the collecting, building, converting and painting of the miniatures – indeed as I’ve got older this has become the “main” part of the hobby to me and gaming actually comes second –

if you factor all that in you can get a lot more stuff to build/convert/paint with £100 from GW than you can with £100 from anyone else.

 Fafnir wrote:
While this is true, that doesn't justify GW's prices. Keep in mind that, at the end of the day, I'm not paying for the salesman's wage, the store's rent, the sculptor's skills, or the designer's time. I'm paying for the product.

 Fafnir wrote:
And keep in mind, GW is not a game company, they are, by their own admission, a model company.

Eilif wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

To me "the hobby" also includes the collecting, building, converting and painting of the miniatures – indeed as I’ve got older this has become the “main” part of the hobby to me and gaming actually comes second –

if you factor all that in you can get a lot more stuff to build/convert/paint with £100 from GW than you can with £100 from anyone else.

That's just not correct, GW kits are far more expensive than almost anyone else's kits. I grant you that they do come with more bits, but there are plenty of other places to get bits or other supplies for conversion.

I can buy twice as many figs and vehicles (and bits to convert them if I want) from companies other than GW. Since switching over mostly to non indie games and miniatures, I've spend less and been able to buy far more minis and vehicles.

GW hits you with a double whammy. Not only does their stuff cost more, but you need more of it.
Or put another way...
You spend more, get less, and then you have to spend more again!

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Now I admit I’ve never played Warmachine/Hordes (I have played a lot of other game systems though, I’m no GW fanboy) so I don’t know what these make in games terms but from a miniature stand point the cost here is the same. Yes arguments could be made about miniature quality and the look of the minis (personally I prefer the new style 40k minis to the old style, but to each his own and if you don’t like the new ones you are entitled to your opinion) but in pure terms of their cost in the market they are pretty much the same. I do however agree that I would much rather GW switch to a “normal” proportion design to the “heroic” design, but I think we can all agree that that can’t really happen now – can you imagine the uproar if GW suddenly said that all models are obsolete?

Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

OK, I admit that I don;t know what is needed for a game, and 10 Guard Rifle might make a full army, whilst you need 3 boxes of marines to make a full army – but in pure model costs GW are cheaper across the board. Can someone tell me what I am missing?

Looking at other things, I recently bought a Raging Heroes Manticore for £40, the GW price for a Manticore is £24.38. Now I admit I’m not a fan for the GW model (hence why I bought the Raging Heroes one) but here GW are actually the cheaper choice, nearly half the price.

Whilst I admit that GW has gone up massively in price of late, I do argue some what that they are over priced. Given that the costs now seem similar to the competition I think a better argument is that they previously were underpriced (which will no doubt get shouted down on here, but the quick 10 minuates research I just did seems to say that).

 filbert wrote:
Mantic

Stranger83 wrote:

I had this discussion earlier and using Warmahordes, Infanity and Malfaux (all the "cheaper" companies) as examples were more expensive on a box set by box set basis (though GW need more box sets to make an army so are more expensive) Can you give me examples of companies which release similar scale models (i.e 28mm) that are cheaper than GW?

Dawnbringer wrote:


Perry's, Gripping Beast, Warlord, Conquest Games, Fireforge Games.

Stranger83 wrote:Perry's is cheaper, though definately harder to find as (as far as I can tell) you can only buy direct (certainly the only place I've seen them). Fireforge is cheaper on a model per model basis too from the few things I've seen, though not massively. Warlord is roughly the same price per model (somethings being cheaper and some being more expensve, but only by a few pence each model).

Not heard of the others you mention and they don't sell them at any of the 3 stores I use so I can't really comment on if they are cheaper or not, though if you can't find something for sale it's difficult to say that its a better option to buy that - but maybe they are bigger in your part of the world so easier to get.

Actually, I take the perry's back, I see they are now being stocked at my online game store, which is fantastic.

Stranger83 wrote:
The exact post for reference - showing the number of models and the relevent cost.

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Now I admit I’ve never played Warmachine/Hordes (I have played a lot of other game systems though, I’m no GW fanboy) so I don’t know what these make in games terms but from a miniature stand point the cost here is the same. Yes arguments could be made about miniature quality and the look of the minis (personally I prefer the new style 40k minis to the old style, but to each his own and if you don’t like the new ones you are entitled to your opinion) but in pure terms of their cost in the market they are pretty much the same. I do however agree that I would much rather GW switch to a “normal” proportion design to the “heroic” design, but I think we can all agree that that can’t really happen now – can you imagine the uproar if GW suddenly said that all models are obsolete?

Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

OK, I admit that I don;t know what is needed for a game, and 10 Guard Rifle might make a full army, whilst you need 3 boxes of marines to make a full army – but in pure model costs GW are cheaper across the board. Can someone tell me what I am missing?

Looking at other things, I recently bought a Raging Heroes Manticore for £40, the GW price for a Manticore is £24.38. Now I admit I’m not a fan for the GW model (hence why I bought the Raging Heroes one) but here GW are actually the cheaper choice, nearly half the price.

Whilst I admit that GW has gone up massively in price of late, I do argue some what that they are over priced. Given that the costs now seem similar to the competition I think a better argument is that they previously were underpriced (which will no doubt get shouted down on here, but the quick 10 minuates research I just did seems to say that).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 filbert wrote:
Mantic

OK, yes I'll grant you that but that is still 1 cheaper to 3 more expensive (on a model by model perspective). Also I thing Mantic stuff are terrible (but that's just me)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying gw are cheap, but the argument was they are much more than everyone else per model and that just isn't true, a lot of the time you can get more physical GW stuff for the same price than you can other companies stuff.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
The exact post for reference - showing the number of models and the relevent cost.

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Now I admit I’ve never played Warmachine/Hordes (I have played a lot of other game systems though, I’m no GW fanboy) so I don’t know what these make in games terms but from a miniature stand point the cost here is the same. Yes arguments could be made about miniature quality and the look of the minis (personally I prefer the new style 40k minis to the old style, but to each his own and if you don’t like the new ones you are entitled to your opinion) but in pure terms of their cost in the market they are pretty much the same. I do however agree that I would much rather GW switch to a “normal” proportion design to the “heroic” design, but I think we can all agree that that can’t really happen now – can you imagine the uproar if GW suddenly said that all models are obsolete?

Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

OK, I admit that I don;t know what is needed for a game, and 10 Guard Rifle might make a full army, whilst you need 3 boxes of marines to make a full army – but in pure model costs GW are cheaper across the board. Can someone tell me what I am missing?

Looking at other things, I recently bought a Raging Heroes Manticore for £40, the GW price for a Manticore is £24.38. Now I admit I’m not a fan for the GW model (hence why I bought the Raging Heroes one) but here GW are actually the cheaper choice, nearly half the price.

Whilst I admit that GW has gone up massively in price of late, I do argue some what that they are over priced. Given that the costs now seem similar to the competition I think a better argument is that they previously were underpriced (which will no doubt get shouted down on here, but the quick 10 minuates research I just did seems to say that).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 filbert wrote:
Mantic

OK, yes I'll grant you that but that is still 1 cheaper to 3 more expensive (on a model by model perspective). Also I thing Mantic stuff are terrible (but that's just me)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying gw are cheap, but the argument was they are much more than everyone else per model and that just isn't true, a lot of the time you can get more physical GW stuff for the same price than you can other companies stuff.

What you missed out was the fact that 1 you will usually have no more than 2 units of winterguard, if any in a force and 2 those marines are now £20 something pounds 50-75P for 10 and i need around 3-4 boxes in my army of smurfs.

GW are the very opposite of cheap with their sale increasin disproportionatly. The sculpts are as others have said staying on average the same withe the exception that they appear to have to taken to covering everything in skulls. Dont get me wrong-i like skulls. And i believe that they look great on models, bases, dioramas, etc but GW are going OTT with some buildings having entire walls of skulls! Infact the alighnment of many models is called into question-are they really Imperial, Ork or whatever or really Khorne worshippers?

I personaly still play WHFB and 40K but i rarley-its easyer to take my Cryx force into the club than lug a huge case 3-4 miles. Also a decent size Warmachines force can be purchased for around £50 including the rule book, counters etc....
With almost any GW game to buy new will cost me in the region of £150-£200 atleast.

You do the maths.

Stranger83 wrote:
Perry's is cheaper, though definately harder to find as (as far as I can tell) you can only buy direct (certainly the only place I've seen them). Fireforge is cheaper on a model per model basis too from the few things I've seen, though not massively. Warlord is roughly the same price per model (somethings being cheaper and some being more expensve, but only by a few pence each model).

Not heard of the others you mention and they don't sell them at any of the 3 stores I use so I can't really comment on if they are cheaper or not, though if you can't find something for sale it's difficult to say that its a better option to buy that - but maybe they are bigger in your part of the world so easier to get.

Actually, I take the perry's back, I see they are now being stocked at my online game store, which is fantastic.

 Imperial Monkey wrote:
Out of interest, since part of the issue for many is the bad designs, would folks say that the last really good (all round releases, ie. all models bar one/maybe two) release would be IG or DE? Personally I thought Gaurd were excellent and then it went downhill a bit (I can't remember which was more recent though, guard or DE - which was also excellent).

agustin wrote:
Are Skaven their only real original idea?