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**Tiger9gamer**

I like the dark vengance, but torn on the decision between what to make my terminators. The mauls seem a little underpowered, and even with smite it seems you can glub it up easily.

I hope they are T5 like a rumor said.

**Ronin_eX**

Tiger9gamer wrote:
I like the dark vengance, but torn on the decision between what to make my terminators. The mauls seem a little underpowered, and even with smite it seems you can glub it up easily.

I hope they are T5 like a rumor said.

Power Mauls get an oddly bad rap despite actual numbers showing them to be great weapons. The only time a (say) power-sword would be a boon is against models with 3+ armour saves and no invulnerable save greater than 6+. On the charge, Deathwing Knights are beasts. Protracted combat will probably still favour standard assault terminators, but the ability to utterly outperform any other combat unit in the game for one turn is great for breaking through a deathstar and snapping the enemy's back.

And even against their bane (straight 3+ save models, like Marines) they pull good numbers. On the charge they will kill an average of three marines and in return take ~0.275-0.55 casualties (depending on the unit). Each round they fight the enemy will be ground to paste. Against enemies with saves worse than 3+ or better than 3+ they will outperform most AP3 power weapons because of the strength boost. And of course their surviving enemies will be getting mashed back to initiative 1 in subsequent rounds. Smite is just icing that allows them to deal with TEQ assault units quickly and efficiently.

By all accounts (and from the WD itself) they are T5 while in base to base with each other (some sort of shield wall). So they are rivalling Paladins for toughest terminators in the game (2+/4++ W2 vs. 2+/3++ T5).

And this is before knowing exactly what Inner Circle and You Cannot Hide do (two other rules that apparently buff their performance). Let alone knowing what the Flail of the Unforgiven actually brings to the table (or the relic for that matter).

But be sure, mauls are not underpowered in any way. They are easily one of the most flexible of the power-weapon archetypes and allow you to deal with infantry, vehicles, monstrous creatures and just about anything else. AP3 weapons are the best tools against 3+ save models, but without a strength buff they quickly fall behind if things like invulnerable saves get brought in to the mix. In cases like this the WS5 (hit more often) and S6 will be a larger boon than being able to cleave through models with a specific armour save and no invulnerable save, more effectively.

**kronk**

Tiger9gamer wrote:
I like the dark vengance, but torn on the decision between what to make my terminators. The mauls seem a little underpowered, and even with smite it seems you can glub it up easily.

I hope they are T5 like a rumor said.

I'd hold off on building your terminators in any manner until you read through the codex and make a handful of army lists.

**Tiger9gamer**

Yea, that makes sense. just me worrying again X-X

**SavageRobby**

Tamwulf wrote:
I'll tell you that if I was a new player to the game, I wouldn't start a Dark Angels army at those prices. As a long time DA player, I'm going to buy a Dark Talon, simply because flyers are kinda OP at the moment, and if you don't have one, you're at a bit of a disadvantage. I'll get a Deathwing Command Squad (maybe two...) just for the Knights and the bits for a proper DW Command Squad for Belial (bad, bad pose! Who stands like that? OMG!). I might get the Ravenwing Command Squad. Again, more for the bits then anything. I have no love for Space Marines riding motocycles into battle. That Unholy Abomination Land Speeder? GW can keep that thing.

FWIW (which is exactly one data point) I'm a new player, and Dark Angels are exactly what I'm starting with.

But then, I really like the Ravenwing, the new flyer (the fighter version) and the new Vengeance, too. (The Darkshroud and the flying temple, not so much.)

**Tiger9gamer**

Ronin_eX wrote:

Power Mauls get an oddly bad rap despite actual numbers showing them to be great weapons. The only time a (say) power-sword would be a boon is against models with 3+ armour saves and no invulnerable save greater than 6+. On the charge, Deathwing Knights are beasts. Protracted combat will probably still favour standard assault terminators, but the ability to utterly outperform any other combat unit in the game for one turn is great for breaking through a deathstar and snapping the enemy's back.

And even against their bane (straight 3+ save models, like Marines) they pull good numbers. On the charge they will kill an average of three marines and in return take ~0.275-0.55 casualties (depending on the unit). Each round they fight the enemy will be ground to paste. Against enemies with saves worse than 3+ or better than 3+ they will outperform most AP3 power weapons because of the strength boost. And of course their surviving enemies will be getting mashed back to initiative 1 in subsequent rounds. Smite is just icing that allows them to deal with TEQ assault units quickly and efficiently.

By all accounts (and from the WD itself) they are T5 while in base to base with each other (some sort of shield wall). So they are rivalling Paladins for toughest terminators in the game (2+/4++ W2 vs. 2+/3++ T5).

And this is before knowing exactly what Inner Circle and You Cannot Hide do (two other rules that apparently buff their performance). Let alone knowing what the Flail of the Unforgiven actually brings to the table (or the relic for that matter).

But be sure, mauls are not underpowered in any way. They are easily one of the most flexible of the power-weapon archetypes and allow you to deal with infantry, vehicles, monstrous creatures and just about anything else. AP3 weapons are the best tools against 3+ save models, but without a strength buff they quickly fall behind if things like invulnerable saves get brought in to the mix. In cases like this the WS5 (hit more often) and S6 will be a larger boon than being able to cleave through models with a specific armour save and no invulnerable save, more effectively.

Sorry for replying twice, was kinda distracted before, so I kinda wanted to clear it up about what I would be comparing them too, and that is the glourious TH/SS terminators. str 8 all the time with AP2 is kinda hard to beat. as you said We have to wait a short (yet oddly long) time to the new codex release, so we know that discussion is coming.

if worst comes to worst, the Knights might need to be the "meat shield" for something.

**wuestenfux**

SavageRobby wrote:
Tamwulf wrote:
I'll tell you that if I was a new player to the game, I wouldn't start a Dark Angels army at those prices. As a long time DA player, I'm going to buy a Dark Talon, simply because flyers are kinda OP at the moment, and if you don't have one, you're at a bit of a disadvantage. I'll get a Deathwing Command Squad (maybe two...) just for the Knights and the bits for a proper DW Command Squad for Belial (bad, bad pose! Who stands like that? OMG!). I might get the Ravenwing Command Squad. Again, more for the bits then anything. I have no love for Space Marines riding motocycles into battle. That Unholy Abomination Land Speeder? GW can keep that thing.

FWIW (which is exactly one data point) I'm a new player, and Dark Angels are exactly what I'm starting with.

But then, I really like the Ravenwing, the new flyer (the fighter version) and the new Vengeance, too. (The Darkshroud and the flying temple, not so much.)

Be careful here. As a new player, it is generally hard to start with an elite army. DW or RW (or a combined force between DA and RW) are small armies who need a skilled General.

**Skriker**

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
1. I like that they gave us a Termie kit that can be a Command Squad, Knights or regular Deathwing....AND comes with a Watcher in the Dark.

2. Scouts are now troops according to the new DA army section.

As a newb to War40k though, don't really know if anything I listed is a good thing or not, just something that I like.

Scouts as troops is a nice add. Did they do away with the really strict unit size counts from the old codex? For something like scouts before you could have a unit of 5 or 10, but not a unit of 7...has that changed? Have my book on pre-order, but curious if anyone knows.

Skriker

**pretre**

compilation from Natfka

collated by Callum

- The special rule "Inner Circle" gives hatred against Chaos Space Marines and Courage.
- The table of Warlord includes options to increase the turboboost of bikes, +1 / -1 to the roll of reserves etc...
- Belial can change their weapons as before. And yes, he does make Terminators troops.
- Sammael makes RW bikes troops as, also.
- Azrael gains +2S and AP3 for his sword. makes both RW and DW troops.
- No specific psychic Dark Angels. Ezekiel has a power that is S4 AP 2, D3 shots, I believe.

Deathwing Knights
- +1 To their Toughness if they are base to base.

Land Speeder Revenge
- The Plasma Storm Battery is S7 AP2, 3 small blast or 1 large blast.

Land Speeder Shroud (80 pts)
- Has the dark rule, which gives +2 to it's cover save.
- A 6 "units gain Stealth.

Ram Ravenwing
- Rift Cannon: Strength 5, AP-, blast, blindness.

Nephilim (about 150/160 pts) According to Warseer 180.
- Avenger Mega Bolter: Strength 6, AP4, heavy 5
- Missiles : Strength 6, AP4
- Unrelenting Hunter: Allows exchanging a result of the enemy weaponry destroyed by an immobilized result.

Black Knights Ravenwing (126 unit 3)
- Hammer Corvus: Strength +1, AP-, Rending.
- Plasma Talons 18" plasma guns.

Command Squad Ravenwing.
- Same points as the Black Knights.

Ravenwing (80 points a unit of 3)

via Baret
80 points for a 3man bike squad! 27 points for each additional member. They still come with scouts, have special combat squad splitting (3/3 bikes and the AB and speeder separately (so 3 scoring and a vehicle). 126 points base for those fancy command bikes, their plasma is only 18" though..

Termie squads are 210, have split fire rules, can take 10 members with heavy weapons per 5. They are 44 Points for each additional member.

Everything has a version of stubborn.

via Archibald_TK on Warseer
(the one where we got some infos during the SoB WD release). I was reluctant to post them as the other posters in the thread mentioned it comes from a new rumourmonger but after seeing what the German forum says I suppose they may be true (or they may be coming from the same source so salt and all of that)

A brief summary of what we didn't know before:
- Azrael giving 4++ to his squad; has a S6 P3 weapon
- Warlord table gives +1d6 to turboboost distance/reroll running roll to the Warlord unit, furious charge, +1/-1 to reserve rolls, fearless, he mentions one giving "insensible" which I cannot translate as it's not a rule I know, it sounds like the beginning of the French FnP rule "insensible à la douleur" but I highly doubt he was referring to that
- Nephilim close to 160 pts with upgrade, gatling gun same sucky stats as discussed before
- The weapon of the Deathwing Knights champion is +2S AP3 and cannot be switched for something else
- Inner Circle mentioned as being Fearless, Hate (CSM) like in the other rumour
- Caliban Halberd +2S AP2 strikes at Init
- Access to Divination
- He mention later that while he didn't really check for that, the little boxes that you usually see in the army list allowing to switch FOC slots, he only remember them next to the 3 SC

via chizal on Warseer

In store atm with the codex. all i said is conformed. bane of the traitor(-1ap vs c:csm in cc) is deathwing knights weapons only .

Neph fighter is 180 with either weapon option

azrael does unlock both wings as troops
He has to be in the primary detachment

Also inner circle is fearless and PE c:csm
Blade of caliban is str+1 ap3 unwieldy but a lot cheaper then a normal pweapon

cammand squads are fixed number and can be taken 1 per hq of the same type

Special items include conversion and displacer and power fields. random stat monster slayer power sword and a weapon thats str+3ap3 bane blind concusive

Armoury in the codex called the armory of the rock. also small tidbit is all missle launchers can be upgraded to flak apart fron the whirlwind which got screwed. also dev squad are super cheap. 5man squad with 4 multi meltas 110pts lol

Are the fixed numbers 5-man for Deathwing and 3-man for Ravenwing?
Correct 5&3

Black sword missiles S6 AP4? It wasnt the megabolter with these stats?
both have those stats. bolter r48 missles r36 also rhe fighter has missle lock spacial rule i. the army list but has no blast missle. some silly mistake as it makes no sense we hope

belial 190 any load out
land raiders with deathwing vehicle now have the venerable rule so may reroll pen results

do Land Raiders have to pay extra to get the deathwing vehicle rule?
30 extra and has to have it

No storms. no homers on scouts.chaps &libs can take bikes. only gramd master unlock troops. can have a techmarine per hq taken

Do standard bikers have Skilled Rider?
Nope only black knights

Veng strike gives all models twin linked shots the turn they deepstrike
smite is str+6 ap2 one use. Doesnt say if it to one attack or all that turn.
The fighter has missle lock in the points section at the back but does not have any blast missles so must be a mis pri t.
The deathwing vehicle rule is just anotber name for venerable

If it says something like “Once per game the DW knights can make an attack at ……….” People would start questioning is that in addition to normal attacks? Does it get used for all attacks? Does it replace their attacks with one attack?
Here’s hoping we don’t need to argue about it for 2 months…….
It has its own sub profile str+6ap2 melee one use only

What about named characters?
Same old 5. Some new rules like azrael can choose his warlord trait from the 6 new ones. unlocks both wings as troops. also him or belial lets you not scatter with his unit when deepstriking. had to leave and there was no way to sneak the book out the store

Ezeke is mastery 3 has to take mindworm and then rolls twice on any except biomancy

Chaplain one gets instant death in melee but no ap or his crozius

oh and samiel is the only eternal warrior again

**Red Viper**

Thanks for posting that here. Warseer and Natfka are both blocked for me at work.

So Deathwing Knights have normal power mauls, but can be S10 ap 2 once a game?

**Tiger9gamer**

Can't tell if rules are bad or not...

**kronk**

So you have to pay the -Belial, Sammael, or Azrael tax to unlock the troops slot on their respective wing(s) instead of a generic HQ. That's a shame.

**Deadshot**

Samiel is really cool, pretty much same as old edition, but it sounds really cool. Land speeder is 14/14/10, EW, 4++ on bike or Speeder. Other things. He's pretty wicked.

The Vengeance and Darkshroud are the same stats as the Land Speeder though so pretty fragile :(.

**Tiger9gamer**

great, now I'm worried I may have lost money on this X-X

**kronk**

Tiger9gamer wrote:
great, now I'm worried I may have lost money on this X-X

Lost money, how? While it's disappointing that having to take a named dude to unlock the wing(s) was kept, I'm sure they're pretty powerful. Also, it sounds like the DA are getting some excellent toys and units.

Also:

5man squad with 4 multi meltas 110pts

Wow.

**Tiger9gamer**

kronk wrote:
Tiger9gamer wrote:
great, now I'm worried I may have lost money on this X-X

Lost money, how? While it's disappointing that having to take a named dude to unlock the wing(s) was kept, I'm sure they're pretty powerful. Also, it sounds like the DA are getting some excellent toys and units.

Also:
5man squad with 4 multi meltas 110pts

Wow.

Pre-codex worry X-X afraid they won't be as "uber" as I once thought out. the S6 AP3 champ weapon is cool though, hope the haliberd is AP2 and can be given to a captain.

**kronk**

I wouldn't worry. Sounds like a solid codex.

As for the Halberd:

Caliban Halberd +2S AP2 strikes at Init

That's a pretty scary weapon. It's got to be pricey, though. Like Powerfist pricey.

**Sasori**

Rules don't seem too bad at a glance.

**Scorpiodragon**

I'm pretty psyked for this now, aside from the fact that Belial is now 180pts and still no eternal warrior. However with 3 chaos players in my meta I can't wait to lay down the hatered right back.

**SavageRobby**

wuestenfux wrote:
SavageRobby wrote:

FWIW (which is exactly one data point) I'm a new player, and Dark Angels are exactly what I'm starting with.

But then, I really like the Ravenwing, the new flyer (the fighter version) and the new Vengeance, too. (The Darkshroud and the flying temple, not so much.)

Be careful here. As a new player, it is generally hard to start with an elite army. DW or RW (or a combined force between DA and RW) are small armies who need a skilled General.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. I don't expect to win a lot to start, but I do expect to learn a lot.

I love the idea of the DW/RW army, with some Dreadnought and Vehicle backup. At the moment I've accumulated some 30 termies of various configs (including a few , including a Librarian and Chaplain in term armor, 2 full 6 bikes RW squads (plus 1 speeder and 1 attack bike), a Vindicator and a pair of Dreadnoughts with different configs, plus a squad of Tac marines and a command squad and various HQ options (a Belial, plus the DV company master, librarian and chaplain). Also have a box of Knights and the Vengeance on the way. No drop pods, rhinos or land raiders (yet).

So I figure that's a decent foundation, and then the next step will be understanding the rules in play (read through multiple times, playing tomorrow) and then the tactical/strategic implications, although I've found strategy and tactics basics are generally transferrable, so mostly its understanding the specifics of how 40k plays.

**Lobokai**

Sammael still has EW? Very Cool... is he still a unit of one, or is he an IC?

Can Command Squads or Black Knights take SS?

Thanks to anyone who knows, and my apologies if already said and I missed it

**Harriticus**

Based solely on their appearances:

-Deathwing Knights: Too much, a lot of GW kits these days are simply "too much". A Deathwing Knight concept would have worked for a Deathwing Master or whatever though

-Deathwing Command Squad: Fine, besides the legs issue

-Ravenwing Knights: Look fine to me

-Dark Talon: Pretty bad, but still an improvement over the Storm Chicken

-Nephilim Jet Fighter: Significant improvement over both the Storm Talon and Dark Talon.

-Land Speeder Vengeance: Barely passable

-Darkshroud: Looks like utter gak.

**Exergy**

Lobukia wrote:

Can Command Squads or Black Knights take SH?

Thanks to anyone who knows, and my apologies if already said and I missed it

not sure what SH is?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:
I wouldn't worry. Sounds like a solid codex.

As for the Halberd:

Caliban Halberd +2S AP2 strikes at Init

That's a pretty scary weapon. It's got to be pricey, though. Like Powerfist pricey.

it will probably be limited to the champion and he will get it at a discount

**Tiger9gamer**

more speculation! how do you think The Nephilm fighter could do? the avenger cannon looks a tad bit weak to me.

**Crimson**

I think the Dark Talon would look much better if the gothic bits (apart the statues and icons) were painted with the same colour as the hull. Then it would look more like an ornately shaped plane instead of a plane with masonry bolted on it.

**kwah**

im just going to go to my corner and cry my tau heart out now

**Anpu42**

I am still waiting to see information on Veterans and Tactical Squads. I don’t know if this means anything but but you can buy the veterans pack under both Elites and Troops.

**Tiger9gamer**

Still can't decide if the Nephim's avenger bolter is good X-X

**Lobokai**

Exergy wrote:
Lobukia wrote:

Can Command Squads or Black Knights take SH?

Thanks to anyone who knows, and my apologies if already said and I missed it

not sure what SH is?

Grrr, typo. Meant SS.

**Ronin_eX**

Tiger9gamer wrote:
Still can't decide if the Nephim's avenger bolter is good X-X

It seems okay against AV11 flyers once the missiles are added in. But overall it seems like the Neph is a better ground-attack flyer than anti-air. The TL lascannon version may perform anti-air better. But things like Strafing Run just seem to make it better at hitting ground targets rather than tangling in the skies.

Saddly, that is the same role as the Dark Talon which seems to have more synergy with the force (debuffs things like a boss). No one has quoted any special rules for the Avenger MB or Black Sword Missiles so I am starting to think they are just straight up S6AP4. Oh well, glad I held off. I'll wait until I get the codex before I decide if the Neph is good or not. But at least the Dark Talon sounds like it meshes with the rest of the force well.