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I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.

Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.

There were some bits in FFG's Only War that said it was the firstborn child of every family that got recruited. And then there was the picture of the female Vostroyan medic later in the book.

That really makes more sense than only the firstborn son anyway, is what I meant.

 Melissia wrote:
That really makes more sense than only the firstborn son anyway, is what I meant.

Eh, that may be true but unless Vostroyan woman can grow glorious Stalin-staches, I don't want to see them in the First-Born.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That really makes more sense than only the firstborn son anyway, is what I meant.

Eh, that may be true but unless Vostroyan woman can grow glorious Stalin-staches, I don't want to see them in the First-Born.

I know you like bearded ladies, but they're not for everyone.

jayjester wrote:
I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.

Most regular Orks (if there is such a thing) are either feral or will gravitate towards the Snakebites. Freebootaz are the Orks in it for the money and the flash

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

jayjester wrote:
I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.

Most regular Orks (if there is such a thing) are either feral or will gravitate towards the Snakebites. Freebootaz are the Orks in it for the money and the flash

I... what?

No, the largest clan is the Goffs clan.

 Melissia wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

jayjester wrote:
I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.

Most regular Orks (if there is such a thing) are either feral or will gravitate towards the Snakebites. Freebootaz are the Orks in it for the money and the flash

I... what?

No, the largest clan is the Goffs clan.

Of the unaffiliated Orks, most of them are Ferals. The Snakebites are the next closest thing to a Feral Ork, so I assume that most Ferals join up with the Snakebites.

Ah.

But that still doesn't mean that the feral orks actually agree with the Snakebites.

I think they'd be more inclined to, given their similarities in fighting with choppas over shootas.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That really makes more sense than only the firstborn son anyway, is what I meant.

Eh, that may be true but unless Vostroyan woman can grow glorious Stalin-staches, I don't want to see them in the First-Born.

Well bearded ladies can be appealing at least if you ask Korgan Bloodaxe of Baldur's Gate II-fame.

Korgan getting Jan to tell a story is quite funny and disturbing:
Korgan: ‘Tis been far too long since our last battle. Jan, ye runty windbag, tell me a story to ward off the boredom ... and if ye know what’s good for ye, it’ll be about dwarves!
Jan: Ah, finally someone who appreciates my tales! A tale about dwarves, eh? Let me see, of course - my cousin Kimble. Not a dwarf himself per se, but Kimble always was of peculiar tastes for a gnome. He fell in love with a dwarven lass. She was stout and stocky, with a gruff voice and a soft, supple beard...
Korgan: Ah, gnome, ye know how to paint a lovely picture ... such a beauty she must ha’ been!
Jan: Oh yes, she was a fine looking woman ... to Kimble’s eyes at least. She cast a spell on him far stronger than any sorcerer could have. But she wouldn’t have anything to do with my cousin - she had dwarven princes and clan lords after her calloused hands, and she couldn’t be bothered with a dirt poor turnip farming gnome. But Kimble’s heart wouldn’t be denied ... he left his own family to follow this bewitching character back to her clan home.
Korgan: Yer losin’ me gnome, I don’t want no weeping love story. I want killin’ and death! Give me blood!
Jan: You wanted a story about dwarves, and this is the only one I’ve got. I just can’t make up a life, you know ... that would be an affront to the grand tradition of storytelling in my family! Now, where was I? Oh yes, Kimble. My cousin followed the lovely dwarven lass to her clan home in the Alimir Mountains, and started a turnip farm there. He had a rough go of it at first, let me tell you ... taxes, levies, zoning restrictions. It was almost like the dwarves didn’t want him and his farm there. But they never had turnips, so they didn’t really know what they were missing. One of those turnips started to sprout things, changed in a hurry. Turns out the dwarves of that particular clan LOVED turnips. Fried, baked, boiled, pureed, mashed - you couldn’t find a meal of the day they didn’t have turnips with. Turnips became so fashionable they began to wear clothes made from turnips. Never did a dwarf look so snazzy (or smell so appetizing) as when he dressed up in a turnip top hat and turnip tails, with turnip skin shoes to complete the ensemble. And with his turnip business booming, Kimble had more wealth than he knew what to do with. Just walking around his house was an effort, what with all the mountains of gold spilling out of every door of every room.
Korgan: All that gold got me attention, gnome. But the happy ending isn’t doin’ much for me.
Jan: Happy ending? I never said any such thing. Kimble was rich, true enough - but it turns out his dwarven love didn’t share her clans’ fondness for turnips. In fact, she was deathly allergic. She did her best to avoid the lethal vegetables, but as popular as Kimble’s crops were it was only a matter of time before she accidentally ate one. It killed her, of course. Heartbroken, Kimble tried to return to his own people. But the dwarves just weren’t going to let him and his turnips leave. They threw him in prison and demanded he reveal the secrets of turnip farming, but that isn’t something you can just teach. You either have the gift or you don’t, and dwarves don’t. In the end Kimble’s frail body succumbed to the dwarves’ torture and interrogation and he left to join his beloved in the afterlife. And that particular dwarven clan discovered that turnip farmers were almost as tasty as turnips themselves. Or so I’ve heard.
Korgan: HAR! HAR! HAR! A great tale, gnome. Ye done yerself proud!

 Coolyo294 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.

Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.

There were some bits in FFG's Only War that said it was the firstborn child of every family that got recruited. And then there was the picture of the female Vostroyan medic later in the book.

I approve of this.

I just find it stupid that a family would get away with not sending a child off to the Vostroyan Firstborn if they only had female children.

It's stated to be the firstborn son. But if there is an older daughter do that child even if being number 2 or later get sent? Plus there are the other Vostroyan regiments which might have women as well.

And if the family has nothing but daughters, do they suddenly et out of their obligations and not send any children to the Vostroyan Firstborn? Escaping the obligation to the regiment and the mechanicus?

I just don't see the Mechanicus accepting that. Firstborn child, regardless of gender, would make more sense for the Mechanicus.

Look this is a moot point. Vostroya have more regiments than just the Firstborn, so they can get off scot-free sending some of the girls to another less prestigious regiment of Vostroya. I can't even see the reason for this anger, it's supposed to be Tsar-Russia in space.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Look this is a moot point. Vostroya have more regiments than just the Firstborn, so they can get off scot-free sending some of the girls to another less prestigious regiment of Vostroya. I can't even see the reason for this anger, it's supposed to be Tsar-Russia in space.

Stop trying to belittle what I'm saying by claiming "anger".

It's not anger. I just think it's kind of stupid.

Yeah but Tsarist Russia existed before women suffrage. Sad but true with the armies of the more archaic worlds in Warhammer 40.000. At least I go for the compromise that girls might serve in Vostroyan regiments outside the Firstborn. Plus the word firstborn tends to mean son. Ancient royal stuff.

I wasn't trying to belittle you or anything Melissia, sorry for that.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Yeah but Tsarist Russia existed before women suffrage.

And in the year 40,000, women's suffrage has existed for a VERY long time, so that reasoning isn't really all that relevant to me. What's more important is that it ISN'T the Vostroyans that are dictating the terms here. It's the Mechanicus. And the Mechanicus doesn't have any reason to discriminate between fleshbags on the basis of gender-- in fact, the higher-ups of the mechanicus probably don't have a gender any more, simply because they've removed that part of their body (it's a distraction that makes people think of fleshy desires, and keeps the person from being one with the machine) and are now so much a part of a machine that they barely qualify as human, and certainly do not qualify as male or female.

tl;dr, I don't care about Tsarist Russia unless it's an alternate history fiction anyway so that argument doesn't work on me

Vostroya wouldn't be the only world in the entire Imperium to only recruit its men for military service. The method of recruitment is up to the local government. The Munitorum does not care about sex, only that the tithe is fulfilled and that the material is of sufficient quality.

And yes, the IG Codex specifically stated "firstborn sons". It is one of the areas where FFG material deviates from studio fluff, just like they have opted to make individual Storm Troopers join grunt squads. The obvious thinking behind all of this being that players in the P&P have more classes to choose from and are not limited by gender.

 Melissia wrote:
And if the family has nothing but daughters, do they suddenly et out of their obligations and not send any children to the Vostroyan Firstborn? Escaping the obligation to the regiment and the mechanicus?

I just don't see the Mechanicus accepting that. Firstborn child, regardless of gender, would make more sense for the Mechanicus.

The Mechanicus' thoughts on the matter are irrelevant, it was Guilliman who made the Firstborn dictate as punishment for the Technarch's treasonous withholding of manpower during the Heresy. If he - or the Administratum scribe who transcribed his dictate - worded it as Firstborn son, either by intent or purely by accident* then that's what the Vostroyan government are required to provide.

* case in point, my father died when I was 11, I was raised by my mother - a former Captain in the British Army - to whom I am very close and whose house I am typing this in, I am certainly not sexist, yet I inadvertently used the masculine word MANpower in my second sentence. And we know from canon that the Imperium is not above such errors - hence the Adepta Sororitas.



As for my own retcons, a lot of mine tend to be anti-retcons:
Space Marines still have Imperial Commanders, Lieutenant-Commanders and Lieutenants.

Ultramarine (and Codex adherent) Captains and Lieutenants wear black & yellow helmets respectively - it always irked me that Captains would switch back to blue, these are the colours that were meant to accompany the red-hat for sergeants according to the concept sketches published in the WD issue that coincided with the release of the 5th edition marine codex.

Chapter cult organised as per original RT article: A chaplain is a chaplain is a chaplain. The reclussiarch is neither plural nor a chaplain.

Heresy era Legions were still generally organised as per WD126 - albeit with the Legion size from Collected Visions (which stated even the smallest Legion had 100k - none of this 'oh Ultramarines were 250k strong but the Salamanders were only 7k strong' rubbish).

Abhumans are still abundant, the guard still uses cloven hoofed beastmen as cannon fodder assault troops and the Squat homeworlds are still located nowhere near any of the Tyranid hive fleet's routs.

Inadvertent anti-retcons - I didn't say "yeah thats better" they just kind of crept up on me:
1. The chapter organisation for the big four (including smurfs and the codex in general) was first introduced in the Armies of the Imperium supplement for EPIC. When GW introduced it to 40k they kept the company specialisations but changed the composition of the company, originally Battle Companies were split 30/30/30 instead of 60/20/20, I much prefer the symmetry of this.

2. Salamanders are yellow with black stripes, no it wasn't a Badab War specific camo scheme - they were supposed to look like Tiger Salamanders.

 Melissia wrote:
I prefer not to have "personal retcons", but if I did have one, I would retcon the Horus Heresy in to an ancient, barely-understood and barely remembered part of Imperial history, more legend than actual fact, instead of something that apparently needs five thousand books to describe it so that maybe BL would be more inclined to write books that aren't about which space marine is more space marine than the other space marines.

This.
Then the primarchs could once again be mythical heroes of a long forgotten age instead of the personal sues of whatever author is currently boring us with yet another HH book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galdos wrote:
Exactly, its stupid the idea that the Inquisition and Grey Knights would execute loyal soldiers of the Imperium who have stood up and defeated the forces of Chaos. You should be using these men to help you win battles, not relying on untried soldiers who may break when encountering Chaos.



I also HATE it when books present Space Marines in this "we do this for myself at thats it. feth humanity they deserve to be destroyed for being weak" and that is a loyalist speaking. Its awful and you dont even want to cheer for them.

Thats why I love the way McNeill writes his UMs as the defenders of humanity. You want them to succeed because of how honorable they are.

It is actualy not a stupid idea to execute them. A single bad apple amongst these veterans can easily doom an entire world. Turning both spacemarines and the imperium into some kind of heroes is imo extremely annoying. The most redeeming factor of the setting is, that it avoids that tired old, manichean duality between good guys and bad guys. Everyone is despicable, some are just worse than others.
Weakening this aspect will finaly send 40k right to the level of most (stereotypical) saturday morning cartoons where the good guys are good and the bad guys are evil and any kind of ambiguity
is avoided.

 Melissia wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Yeah but Tsarist Russia existed before women suffrage.

And in the year 40,000, women's suffrage has existed for a VERY long time, so that reasoning isn't really all that relevant to me. What's more important is that it ISN'T the Vostroyans that are dictating the terms here. It's the Mechanicus. And the Mechanicus doesn't have any reason to discriminate between fleshbags on the basis of gender-- in fact, the higher-ups of the mechanicus probably don't have a gender any more, simply because they've removed that part of their body (it's a distraction that makes people think of fleshy desires, and keeps the person from being one with the machine) and are now so much a part of a machine that they barely qualify as human, and certainly do not qualify as male or female.

tl;dr, I don't care about Tsarist Russia unless it's an alternate history fiction anyway so that argument doesn't work on me

Thank you for quoting only the woman-hostile parts of what I wrote. Also a lot of worlds are Knight Worlds. Lets say Vostroya is that just for arguments sake. Then they basically have the healthy Russian view on women before the suffrage. Of course that might or might not be the case as they are established as an Industrial World. Who is a mix between a Mining and a Forge World. Often sparsely populated and such so the people need the women to breed not die.

I am not sure why Vostroyan First Born having women among their ranks in principle would bother you.

But then this seems to be one of those 40k fluff bits that means nothing to me, but is important to someone else.

I don't think it bothers anyone because it's women, but rather because it's one of the many cases where consistency between the material is undermined.

I mean, by the same token we could ask why it would bother anyone if there were female Space Marines. Sure you'll find a number of mysogynists amongst the naysayers, but I'd reckon that would actually be the minority.

The Vostroyans being mono- or multi-gendered really is just a tiny, tiny minor detail, but conflicting interpretations of the setting remain conflicting interpretations, and with 40k, over the span of its existence those have accumulated to an extent where almost everything is contradicted somewhere, save for the most obvious constants.
And some fans just like consistency.

Whereas the Space Marines being all-male is a very big detail that has IIRC been with the setting since its inception.

I'm not saying Beavis is wrong for his belief, just noting that some gak that isn't important to others concerning the setting, is to someone else.

Heyh Void you should try reading what Melissia told me. And scroll up a bit. I even apologized.

I read whatever the feth I want.

Woah woah woah. Let's avoid the hostility here.

I certainly never intended to be hostile; that I just tend to not particularly care for historical "accuracy". Let's not get in to the fact that oftentimes the ones pushing heaviest for historical accuracy are themselves pushing historically inaccurate worldviews. I don't CAAAAAAARE. [/cartoonishly long drawn-out deep-voiced slow-down]

One can have flavor from a historical period without copying every fething part of it. The Vostroyans and so many other parts of 40k do exactly this-- drawing just enough from the inspiration that it provides an interesting base, while then taking their material to new places with their own creativity.

text removed.
Reds8n

I'm one of the few people who think the fluff works better when the Imperium is a bunch of white men.

This is a xenophobic and superstitious empire that's as backwards as a society can be. They're obsessed with maintaining genetic purity, which prompts them to kill all mutants. And all of the High Lords of Terra and the vast majority of Astartes and nobles are white men. Think that's a coincidence?

No, the Imperium is just as sexist and racist as it is xenophobic.