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Has anyone any experience using them in this edition...I'm talking on guardsmen not ratlings by the way

Since my company command squad is usually stationary by the big guns to give orders, I usually equip the CCS vets with sniper rifles. I have mixed results, but they have changes a couple games for me. I would never put them on anything with 3BS though. Or regular veteran squads, as they are much better for delivering other weaponry.

This only really works for me though when I have the CCS stay stationary near my HWS to keep giving orders. And even then only wen I have decent targets for them. Give it a try.

So what is in your CCS? Just a commander and four niper rifles or do you try and throw a standard in too?

I just use four sniper rifles.

I've only ever used them as filler in an officer squad that also has a lascannon, as that's the only 5-point special weapon that has any synergy with the heavy weapon.

Hasn't been all that frequent, though, and they haven't done much. They weren't very good in 5th, and, unless you're facing off against a lot of foot hordes (in which case they can do VERY well), they're not doing much in 6th either.

I find that with the changes to Sniper weapons they are actually quite good.

Always wounding on a 4 means those T7 monstrous creatures need to watch out, Precision on a Six means I can pick off leaders/special weapons, and Rending on a Six means even Terminators aren't safe. Pinning tests everytime your enemy suffers a wound from sniper fire as well? YES PLEASE.

I've been experimenting with a Guard list that includes 27 sniper rifles (10 in Ratling units, 9 in an attached SM Scout Squad, and 8 between two CCS). So far I have seen some great success. The sniper scouts have twice brought down a Demon prince on turn one!

Savage I just want to get some use out of my tallarn ones

Snipers are garbage. By the time you've brought enough of them to be semi-reliable you've spent enough points to just kill the target with other units. The only time you want to take them is when you need the absolute cheapest possible weapon upgrade and don't care how weak it is (for example, a single sniper rifle in a LC/standard CCS). Bringing dedicated sniper units is just throwing away points.

You work in waste disposal Peregrine?

Because you say garbage every 2 posts it seems.

For some the IG Codex ought to be cover, a single recto-verso page with 2-3 units, then the summary on the back cover.

It might not work for you, but yours isn't the only place that plays

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
You work in waste disposal Peregrine?

Because you say garbage every 2 posts it seems.

For some the IG Codex ought to be cover, a single recto-verso page with 2-3 units, then the summary on the back cover.

It might not work for you, but yours isn't the only place that plays

Because plenty of units are garbage.

Guardsman Snipers are garbage.

You're better off taking Grenade Launchers. And those are garbage too.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Because you say garbage every 2 posts it seems.

Because it's the best description for certain units. If you happen to accidentally find yourself in possession of those models you throw them in the garbage can along with the sprue scraps/dried up paint/etc. They're just hobby trash in a slightly more expensive form.

It might not work for you, but yours isn't the only place that plays

This is a discussion of tactics. That means that advice is based on what works and wins games.

If you want to discuss the fluff of snipers there's a whole forum for that, just like there's an entire section of the forum where you can talk all you want about how to build and paint cool sniper models.

I almost never use IG snipers, but almost always use my Ratlings... I like to take 2 units of them, one to hide in the enemy backfield - for the linebreaker points, or I force my opponent to hunt them down for a couple of turns - and the second in my ADL to man the Quad Gun, BS 4. Last week I blew a Helldrake out of the sky in one shooting turn...pretty lucky, I know, but very satisfying!

So so results. Not bad enough to take them out of my list. Harker vet squad with 3 snipers and rocket launcher/ heavy bolter. Or, CCS with las cannon, 2 sniper rifles and camo cloaks.

While I think Peregrine is rather harsh on it all, there is some sort of point there.

I used to have 2 sniper rifles in my Company Command squad, which consisted of the Commander manning an Aegis lascannon, another lascannon and a master of ordnance.

I then realised that instead of wasting 10 points on them for a long ranged anti tank unit, I could instead upgrade 2 grenade launchers in my basic infantry squads to melta guns. Or turn an autocannon into a missile launcher.

The thing with a guard army is that you'll find there's almost always 5 points you could spend instead to improve something else that's going to end up being more efficiently used than 1 or two random sniper rifles...

 Compel wrote:
While I think Peregrine is rather harsh on it all, there is some sort of point there.

Indeed. He is right, sniper rifles just aren't a reliable weapon because they are almost entirely luck-based. First, you need to hit, which is a 3+ or 4+ generally (ideally getting a Precision Shot, but that's only a 16% chance, and even then you still have to cause the wound). Then you have only a 50% chance to wound (with a 16% chance of rending). Admittedly, rending is pretty cool, but how many snipers are in your squad? 4? Chances are that you might cause 1 wound with them per turn, and only 1 rend per game. And even then, your opponent can still get saves, meaning the actual damage output of the sniper rifles is pathetic. Unless you're using one of the aforementioned command squads with a lascannon + snipers, shave off some points and just get plasma.

 Compel wrote:

The thing with a guard army is that you'll find there's almost always 5 points you could spend instead to improve something else that's going to end up being more efficiently used than 1 or two random sniper rifles...

100X this.

Sniper rifles are fine. They always wound on a 4+, sometimes rend, sometimes snipe models, and even on very rare occasion pin something.

The problem with them on guard infantry is guard infantry.
Point for point, the cost of the sniper rifle is as good as a plasmagun.
At 12-24", 3 sniper rifles are doing the same output as 1 plasmagun.
At 24-36" the sniper is much better, while at 0-12" the plasma is twice as good.

But a strait weapon cost to weapon cost match up doesn't mean anything. You can't run three times as many sniper rifles, so the carrier cost of the cheaper sniper rifle doesn't come into play.

For sniper rifles, you want as many as cheap as you can get them.
If I could get WS1 BS2 T2 ratling for 5 points, I'd be all over it. The more dice you throw, the more precision hits you get.

Taking 1-4 sniper rifles in a unit isn't enough. My rule for snipers is take at least 10-20 in an army, or none. Anything less is too unreliable.

-Matt

in my guard army i run three sniper rifles in one of the vet squads, I find its good for what its supposed to be used for, namely causing wounds to high T models, and causing pinning checks at range 36"

the occasional precision strike on a special weapon, or a rend on something is just gravy, and completely unpredictable of course.

5 pts isnt supposed to be game changing, but given the choice between 3 snipers and one plasma, I take the snipers and it usually pays off ( and no gets hot is nice)

in practice, i have the snipers stay back, and the plasma gunners move up, use the tools the best way possible for the best results and all that

they suck on bs 3 guys though, marine players like to complain how my snipers are just as good as theirs now haha

< Taken by the void dragon >

 Che-Vito wrote:


Termies drop in near a tower filled with a IG SWS with plasma? Snipers can fix that.

No. No they can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:

5 pts isnt supposed to be game changing, but given the choice between 3 snipers and one plasma, I take the snipers and it usually pays off ( and no gets hot is nice)

This is literally an awful decision.

Plasma can be fired at full BS on the move. Sniper can't.

Plasma gets two shots in rapidfire range. Sniper doesn't.

Plasma wounds T5 and lower on a 2+, and can instant death T3. Sniper can't.

Plasma is guaranteed to be AP2. Sniper isn't.

Plasma can penetrate AV12. Sniper can't.

Again. Snipers in guard are awful. You definitely can take them, and it seems like plenty of you do, but just know it's not smart.

 TheCaptain wrote:

This is literally an awful decision.
Plasma can be fired at full BS on the move. Sniper can't.
Plasma gets two shots in rapidfire range. Sniper doesn't.
Plasma wounds T5 and lower on a 2+, and can instant death T3. Sniper can't.
Plasma is guaranteed to be AP2. Sniper isn't.
Plasma can penetrate AV12. Sniper can't.
Again. Snipers in guard are awful. You definitely can take them, and it seems like plenty of you do, but just know it's not smart.

If you choice is 1 plasma or 3 snipers, the math is the same at 12-24". Yes, you're single plasma shot is AP2. But 3 shots that might be AP2, and force armor saves when they aren't work out to be the same.

Plasma can't hit a unit 24-36" away.
Plasma can't pin.
Plasma cannot precision hit.
Plasma DOES overheat.

Snipers fire at 36", can pin, can snipe. In a 3:1 trade off, they are roughly the same as plasma.
If you've got 15 points to spend:
Don't take 1 plasma gun.
Don't take 3 snipers.
Take 3 flamers. Neither the 1 plasma gun nor the 3 snipers will make a difference.

-Matt

< Taken by the void dragon >

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Plasma can't hit a unit 24-36" away.

Yes it can. A plasma gun has a 30" range since you can move 6" and still fire at full BS, while the sniper rifles have to be stationary.

Of course the real answer is to take three plasma guns and stop talking about unrealistic units that are created for the sole purpose of "proving" that snipers don't suck.

< Taken by the void dragon >

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Plasma can't hit a unit 24-36" away.

Yes it can. A plasma gun has a 30" range since you can move 6" and still fire at full BS, while the sniper rifles have to be stationary.

Of course the real answer is to take three plasma guns and stop talking about unrealistic units that are created for the sole purpose of "proving" that snipers don't suck.

A Plasma Gun is a Rapid Fire weapon...it Snap Shots if you move 6" and fire.

Err, no. Read the rules again.

< Taken by the void dragon >

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you choice is 1 plasma or 3 snipers, the math is the same at 12-24". Yes, you're single plasma shot is AP2. But 3 shots that might be AP2, and force armor saves when they aren't work out to be the same.

Plasma can't hit a unit 24-36" away.
Plasma can't pin.
Plasma cannot precision hit.
Plasma DOES overheat.

First; show me that math, because you most likely aren't right.

Edit: I decided to do the math for you. Sniper/Plasma in the hands of Veterans VS. MEQ

Sniper hits .66 times. Regular-wound .2244 Rending-wound .1054, .1803 Unsaved/Rended Wound. 3 Snipers would cause .5409 wounds to MEQ.
Plasmagun hits .66 times. Wounds .5544 times. No save, .5544 Unsaved Wounds. Rapid Fire Range would cause 1.1088 Unsaved wounds.

3xSniper loses to single-shooting a Plasmagun, allows armor-saves 84% of the time on its wounds, you have to stand still to fire them, and they take up three Special Weapon slots to even come close to Plasma Performance.

Snipers are not a good choice. Mathematical fact.

Second, the difference between my "Can/cannot" list, and yours, is mine were guaranteed. All of your "Sniper Rifle Strengths" are on a chance. One of them 50%, two of them 16%, and one of them almost always 50% or less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Plasma can't hit a unit 24-36" away.

Yes it can. A plasma gun has a 30" range since you can move 6" and still fire at full BS, while the sniper rifles have to be stationary.

Of course the real answer is to take three plasma guns and stop talking about unrealistic units that are created for the sole purpose of "proving" that snipers don't suck.

A Plasma Gun is a Rapid Fire weapon...it Snap Shots if you move 6" and fire.

Err, no. Read the rules again.

Instead of making a pointless bump to your post count, why not provide a quote to back up what you're saying?

You are wrong. He doesn't need to back it up. You said something you effectively made up in your head.

Rapid fire weapons are fired the same whether you've moved or not.

Fact.

 TheCaptain wrote:

First; show me that math, because you most likely aren't right.

Edit: I decided to do the math for you. Sniper/Plasma in the hands of Veterans VS. MEQ

Sniper hits .66 times. Regular-wound .2244 Rending-wound .1054, .1803 Unsaved/Rended Wound. 3 Snipers would cause .5409 wounds to MEQ.
Plasmagun hits .66 times. Wounds .5544 times. No save, .5544 Unsaved Wounds. Rapid Fire Range would cause 1.1088 Unsaved wounds.

Thanks, for the math, but you've got a rounding error.

BS4:
3 snipers, 2 hits. 1/3rd wound with normal armor (3+) 1/3rd fail. 1/6th wound with AP2.
Looks like you have a rounding error, as that is .5556 wounds for sniper.
Plasma hits 2/3rds, wounds 5/6ths, which is also .5556 wounds for the plasma.

Plasma has the edge on shooting at tanks, as the AP2 gives it +1 to damage rolls. But with death from over-heating more likely than taking out a tank, it's not the best use for that gun.
Snipers have the edge on stripping a hull point, as they should have 1 extra turn to do it in (thanks to range) and do not have diminishing returns on firepower due to over-heating.
Single Plasma has the edge in that the squad has 3 other guys in it who do nothing but catch bullets, while as the 2nd loss in the sniper unit costs you a sniper.


The single Plasma gun does double the effect at very close range, and no effect at very long range (24-36).
If you're going to quote mathematical "FACT", it's better when you are right. We can debate the pro's and con's of the weapons other effects (rapid fire, range over-heat, precision).
So, would you trade overheat and double firepower at under 12" for precision shots and 36" range? It's a loaded question, because the answer is you don't want either.
In the vacuum of, 1 squad with only 15 points for all upgrades, I wouldn't take sniper or plasma.
I would take the flamers. 1 plasmagun or 3 sniper rifles isn't the tool you want in a squad with only lasguns. 3 flamers you can count on doing something pretty well; the other options leave you seriously lacking.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Plasma can't hit a unit 24-36" away.

Yes it can. A plasma gun has a 30" range since you can move 6" and still fire at full BS, while the sniper rifles have to be stationary.

Of course the real answer is to take three plasma guns and stop talking about unrealistic units that are created for the sole purpose of "proving" that snipers don't suck.

The poster was asking about running 3 snipers as he has 15 points left.
What I've said repeated is take flamers for that squad.

Take vets with 3x plasma.
Take ratlings with 10x sniper, if you want snipers.

If you haven't tried the Ratling snipers, you should.
At 36" (which is easy to get with infiltrate), You're doing 1.85 wounds to marines (.46 of the wounds are precision).
Vets at 24" do 2.11 wounds, and cost 15 points more (lasguns put the vets over the snipers).
Yes, the plasma can move up 6" and fire to threaten 30", but you don't always want to move up. That 6" of move might walk you into the open to get those shots.

And I'm not saying don't take vets. I'm saying take both.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Yes, the plasma can move up 6" and fire to threaten 30", but you don't always want to move up. That 6" of move might walk you into the open to get those shots.

Its still a part of their effective range, and should be included in such.

I haven't been able to find any post by the OP where he says he's only got 15 points left.

Anyway, IMO the problem with snipers is that their role is too narrow. Meltas and Plasmas are popular for a reason-they complement the rest of the army by helping our big guns RELIABLY (that's the magic word) deal with high armor values and good armor saves.