Reevaluating the Fireknife (Tau)

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**orchewer**

I've always been wary of using Fireknives (Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod + Multi-tracker) because it felt too generalist. A saying I've taken to heart goes something like "Don't half-(donkey) two things, whole-(donkey) one thing." So with that in mind, I thought about these variations ...

Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod + Target Array (67 points)
Twin-linked Missile Pod + Plasma Rifle (63 points)
Twin-linked Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod (67 points)

And decided to run the math against the targets Fireknives commonly encounter ...

Spoiler:

Findings/TL;DR:

The Fireknife and Targeting Array variant is marginally better (< 7%) than Fireknife against Terminators, Penetrating AV 11 and Penetrating AV 12. The Fireknife is better at Glancing AV 10 - 12 and against GEQ. Against MEQ the two variants are the same.

The Twin-linked Missile Pod variant is marginally better (< 9%) than the Fireknife at Penetrating AV 11 and 12 than the Fireknife. The Fireknife is better at Penetrating AV 10 and against TEQ, MEQ, and GEQ. Both are the same at Glancing AV 10 - 12.

The Twin-linked Plasma Rifle variant is better than the Fireknife against TEQ and MEQ . The Fireknife is better at GEQ and Glancing or Penetrating AV 10 - 12.

*Not taken into consideration: Models with Feel No Pain, Terminators with Storm Shields, Vehicles within 12", TEQ/MEQ/GEQ further than 12" away, or cover saves though there is nothing to indicate that the rankings would change, statistically speaking.

Conclusion:
Though the Fireknife variants listed above do marginally better at select categories than the pure Fireknife, the differences may not be enough to offset the use of the pure Fireknife configuration. Games do not happen in a mathematical vacuum and the pure Fireknife offers the best chance of your opponent losing 4 Terminators in one turn, though the question remains why you are using your Fireknives to shoot at Terminators in the first place.

Of course, the issue of using the Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None Fireknife teams versus more specialized (Helios, Sunforge, Deathrain etc.) teams remains to be discussed and is probably determined by play styles.

**Peregrine**

How are you firing two weapons without a multitracker?

**Martel732**

I think the new vehicles rules made the fire knife even better than before. That, and the rise of 2+ armor saves. Fire knives are perfect for dancing in and out of assault range of teqs.

You should probably also re run the math with a single marker light in play. Fire knives with a slight BS bump get nasty quick. I know; they have killed me plenty of times.

**Jayden63**

The only suits I've ever used besides Fireknife is TL missile pods w/targetting array and plasma/fusion/multi-tracker on an HQ unit that already has BS4 or better.

The Fireknife (especially when in units of 3) is almost the perfect blend of take on all comers configuration. While it may not have been the best weapon combination for a particular situation, it is the best choice for every blind situation because it can do anything more than just well enough.

**Savageconvoy**

Lately I only use the death rain. 3 T/l missile pods, 2 flamers, 1 BSF gives me a very cheap and versatile unit.

I only bring Fireknives as bodyguards and HQ just as some added firepower on BS4 models. Though this rarely does as well as the death rains.

**Martel732**

I have a shared Tau army with my buddy, and I really like the option of dispensing AP 2 death. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on some tetras for marker light love. Death rain config is nice too, but I find AP 4 is too anemic in some battles. Lots of annoying special characters melt to AP 2 and I like that.

**orchewer**

Peregrine wrote:How are you firing two weapons without a multitracker?

I'm not, my math picked the most optimal weapon for the target (Missilepods for armour, Plasma Rifles for anything in power armour)

Martel732 wrote:I think the new vehicles rules made the fire knife even better than before. That, and the rise of 2+ armor saves. Fire knives are perfect for dancing in and out of assault range of teqs.

You should probably also re run the math with a single marker light in play. Fire knives with a slight BS bump get nasty quick. I know; they have killed me plenty of times.

The markerlight probably won't change anything about the standings, though it'll bump the percentages up. I didn't take markerlights into consideration since I wanted to see what one unit would be able to do on its own (though I recognize that units don't operate in a vacuum).

**Martel732**

As BS increases past BS 3, twin linked loses efficacy, as the probability of having to reroll in the first place dips. So any markerlights would swing it in the favor of the non-twinlinked weapons.

Also, more shots have the side effect of having more maximum damage output on a lucky turn; ie, "burst" damage.

**Jancoran**

I dont use Crisis suits anymore (well...rarely). But when I do reach for them its invariably the TL Flamer variety. Does some intangible things for you too, but it really is an incredibly affordable unit for line defense or objective blasting.

I notice you didn't mention them really, but if you catch 6 per flamer which isn't super uncommon, that's pretty good output, and they can jump back quite a ways after delivering that blow, which makes the stunt a bid less risky than it was before. Couple that with Pathfinder Devilfish's which you might have anyways and a kinder DS chart...hey... Just saying. Leaves you more points for Broadsides.

**Aijec**

Some good math in this thread, seems pretty air-tight.

What the math doesn't show though is the versatility a unit like this offers.

I'm fairly consistently firing both weapons in a single turn on a fireknife, and with 12'' of movement every turn while still retaining my full firepower it's tough to not find an optimal target.

I rarely use anything but a mix of deathrain/fireknife. I've also grown accustomed to throwing ta's on my deathrains over the the flamer.

Consistency is key when your fighting battle after battle and they tl misslepods that hit 8/9 times is BRUTAL against most vehicles.

**Coyote81**

Jancoran wrote:
I dont use Crisis suits anymore (well...rarely). But when I do reach for them its invariably the TL Flamer variety. Does some intangible things for you too, but it really is an incredibly affordable unit for line defense or objective blasting.

I notice you didn't mention them really, but if you catch 6 per flamer which isn't super uncommon, that's pretty good output, and they can jump back quite a ways after delivering that blow, which makes the stunt a bid less risky than it was before. Couple that with Pathfinder Devilfish's which you might have anyways and a kinder DS chart...hey... Just saying. Leaves you more points for Broadsides.

1st: I don't really see the point of spending all those points to DS 1-3 TL flamers. Seems your going to be giving up a lot of points when they get shot/assault the next turn.

2nd: If you don't use crisis suits anymore, you must have stopped playing TAu, or are you going to give us another holier then tho speech of a player that says he wins on a consistant basis without a single crisis suit in the army. And if the answer is yes, then post reasons why you don't and what you use intead. Because with advice like you gave, I really put to questions your ability to play Tau in the first place.

**Peregrine**

Coyote81 wrote:
2nd: If you don't use crisis suits anymore, you must have stopped playing TAu, or are you going to give us another holier then tho speech of a player that says he wins on a consistant basis without a single crisis suit in the army. And if the answer is yes, then post reasons why you don't and what you use intead. Because with advice like you gave, I really put to questions your ability to play Tau in the first place.

Broadsides, XV9s, Piranha TX-42s, Hammerheads, Barracudas. It's entirely possible to make a Tau list that doesn't have crisis suits, even if it's not the absolute best tournament winner. And the reason why is obvious: crisis suits are generalists and out-performed by specialists if you can figure out the right mix.

**Savageconvoy**

so going cheap with the T/L flamer gives you 102 points for 6W T4 3+ saves.

Damage output for 6 hits per flamer gets 13.5 wounds against T4. MEQ gets 3.4 unsaved wounds and 2.25 for TEQ. Not bad actually.

But the problem is if you're deepstriking them, you're not going to get that number of hits. Unless you're extremely lucky and manage a jet pack move at the end of your turn to put them into place about 12" away from your opponent is going to end up the next turn, and then get lucky enough to jump back to that exact position, and he has no other units on the board.

I just don't see that as a useful build. It's range is just so limited and it's on such an expensive platform. I guess if you have 102 points that you just have to spend and need to use it on a unit that will get to fire maybe 2 times the entire game before getting wiped off the board.

I really advocate the missile pods. Assualt 2 S7 and 36" gives it the versatility that it will almost always be able to find a target. High enough S and shot volume that it's able to put considerable amount of wounds while staying safely away.

**gr1m_dan**

Flamers are very situational and nothing I would take to a game where I am not sure what I will be facing.

In my circle I face a lot of DE and IG at the moment so Flamers have actually been quite good in a strange way. I managed to deepstrike behind an IG gunline and do some SERIOUS damage with Flamers. He proceeded to try and charge me...bad times for him.

In most games I stick to Fireknifes and Deathrains (T/L MP, TL or TA if I don't take many Markerlights) and they do so good. Especially against DE vehicles. They are brutal! Against IG they are slightly more redundant as most of their armour is taken out by Railguns.

In 6th my Battlesuits have been amongst my top performers and my friends HATE them. Even though with focused firepower they die horribly :(

**Martel732**

I always have a couple template weapons in my BA lists, but certainly not on elites like crisis suits.

**Savageconvoy**

I don't know why Guard would try and assault flamer equiped crisis suits. They would have been much better off just shooting down. The only suits I carry flamers on also have T/L missile pods, so when they get charged I often have trouble choosing between trying to get the S7 shots or d3 S4 autohits.

**spears**

This thread may be relevan to your interests http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

**Jancoran**

Savageconvoy wrote:
so going cheap with the T/L flamer gives you 102 points for 6W T4 3+ saves.

Damage output for 6 hits per flamer gets 13.5 wounds against T4. MEQ gets 3.4 unsaved wounds and 2.25 for TEQ. Not bad actually.

But the problem is if you're deepstriking them, you're not going to get that number of hits. Unless you're extremely lucky and manage a jet pack move at the end of your turn to put them into place about 12" away from your opponent is going to end up the next turn, and then get lucky enough to jump back to that exact position, and he has no other units on the board.

I just don't see that as a useful build. It's range is just so limited and it's on such an expensive platform. I guess if you have 102 points that you just have to spend and need to use it on a unit that will get to fire maybe 2 times the entire game before getting wiped off the board.

I really advocate the missile pods. Assualt 2 S7 and 36" gives it the versatility that it will almost always be able to find a target. High enough S and shot volume that it's able to put considerable amount of wounds while staying safely away.

I think it more fair to say damage output is 13.5-18 wounds. TONS of the targets for these units are T3. Cultists, IG, Eldar, Tyranid hordes and so on. You may be deep striking them, but you're doing so with a Pathfinder Devilfish's help. It is a high percentage play.

The Crisis team WILL jump back and that forces choice:

If you kill 6 Space marines theycan seek revenge against tough 4, STR 5 3+ saves... but face a Wall of Death and the possibility of missing the charge. Or they may have to admit they have been defeated and fade, allowing OTHER units to tackle the problem. This is in fact what usually happens. The enemy is in no hurry to lose more scoring units and would rather the tanks or what not try to knock the Suits down to a size where victory can more easily be assured. Only so many can actually take on the task, for terrain reasons and because frankly, there are other imminent threats like Broadsides and such absorbing attention.

So while the enmy would like nothing better than to obliterate that flamer unit, it may not be the most practical timing to try. And that may allow the Flamers to linger til late game and get another chance. At STR 5 they are a dnager to tanks too, so this is a bit of a conundrum. The enemy knows that by killing the Flamers, they aren't really reducing the enemies OVERALL strength by much, which probably bums them out. Might take quite a few shots to dislodge...

You can see the problems the unit creates. A Deep Strike mishap is posible but if one is taking no chances in onesgames, thats a play style choice. It doesn't speak to the potential of the unit itself.

**Savageconvoy**

You think it's fair to say damage output is between average wounds caused and max wounds?

And yeah, there are tons of T3 models out there, but the problem is the standard Toughness value is 4. You also just picked the units that we have plenty of answers to. The one unit type that Pulse weapons are amazing against. Why not just run Burst cannons and enjoy the range advantage?

Why would marines charge the suits? They're going to be well within rapid fire range for bolters and plasma and now melta range. Even with best case scenario you kill one unit, just to be liquidated. Or here's another example, they simply move the other direction. Have fun trying to catch up to them to get another attack in. If you're outside their rapid fire range then you won't catch up to them without being lured into their killzone.

It's not even going to take much focus to try and take down a unit like that. How do your oppoents let them survive to the end of the game?

And honestly who would consider Crisis suits assaulting a tank to be a threat?

**Jancoran**

18 wounds would be true against tough 3. So yes. Somewhere in the middle is the damage output.

lacking imagination is not an argument. STR 5, 9 attacks on any tank will likely kill it. So why so incredulous? You're forgetting that the Suits can catch up with anyone. Their jump pack moves are impressive.

**Luide**

Jancoran wrote:
18 wounds would be true against tough 3. So yes. Somewhere in the middle is the damage output.

lacking imagination is not an argument. STR 5, 9 attacks on any tank will likely kill it. So why so incredulous? You're forgetting that the Suits can catch up with anyone. Their jump pack moves are impressive.

9 attacks = 6 hits, S5 vs Armor 10 means on average single glance and single pen. No, that tank is not likely to die. I doubt that the tank dies even 1/6th of time, doing the proper math is annoying because of how the different damage results interact with hullpoints.

Edit: I assumed that tank was moving, as that is usually the case...

**Desubot**

I have previously also used the TL-FL suits at low points but i equip them with a secondary Fusion blaster.

It gives them the secondary option for tank hunting or back dooring poorly placed HQ.

With the pathfinders marker light range you should be able to get a few hits on the tanks as well for a relatively sound kill. it takes something like 275 points of troops and support units to take out a 200 point land raider or something on turn 2 but in the end your sacrificing only about 120 points that has a decent chance at survival (if need be jump into terrain and go to ground. (Forcing them to attack them is letting your broadsides pick off more tanks. (for the greater good))

**Savageconvoy**

9 S5 attacks AP- gets 1.5 glances and 1.5 pen on A10. I'm sorry but that is far from likely. That's "I have nothing better to do and really hope this works."

And suits can only move 6" before they fire their weapon with a 8" max range. So if you were more than 12" away and didn't get rapid fired into oblivion then the enemy moves 6" away. That's 18 inches away now. Unless you want to try and jump 6" forward, not shoot, and then jump 2d6" closer to fire your next turn. Because apparently your opponents don't know how to handle a 13" range weapon.

**Jancoran**

Luide wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
18 wounds would be true against tough 3. So yes. Somewhere in the middle is the damage output.

lacking imagination is not an argument. STR 5, 9 attacks on any tank will likely kill it. So why so incredulous? You're forgetting that the Suits can catch up with anyone. Their jump pack moves are impressive.
9 attacks = 6 hits, S5 vs Armor 10 means on average single glance and single pen. No, that tank is not likely to die. I doubt that the tank dies even 1/6th of time, doing the proper math is annoying because of how the different damage results interact with hullpoints.

Edit: I assumed that tank was moving, as that is usually the case...

And its still a threat to destroy it which is all that tank should assume.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
I have previously also used the TL-FL suits at low points but i equip them with a secondary Fusion blaster.

It gives them the secondary option for tank hunting or back dooring poorly placed HQ.

With the pathfinders marker light range you should be able to get a few hits on the tanks as well for a relatively sound kill. it takes something like 275 points of troops and support units to take out a 200 point land raider or something on turn 2 but in the end your sacrificing only about 120 points that has a decent chance at survival (if need be jump into terrain and go to ground. (Forcing them to attack them is letting your broadsides pick off more tanks. (for the greater good))

For the Greater Good indeed!

**Savageconvoy**

Why would the tank owner be fearful of that? And more importantly why would you want to be even close to the enemy? Congrats, you assault a tank and won with the Crisis suits. Now they aren't in cover and standing right where you want them.

And all for the hope of a couple 6's.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I guess I should add is that any Crisis suit has S5. So if you're going to consider it a threat against tanks may as well run melta and missile pods so it can do a bit more. And generally from a distance. A nice safe distance and then enjoy that 2D6" away from all the enemy units.

**Desubot**

Quite frankly a crisis suit assault is straight up a last resort but if the situation allows for it why not.
Immobilized vehicle, rear area artillery, or a vehicle that you need removed but failed to kill during your shooting phase.

Against a stationary vehicle it should be fine to assault it as st5 should at the least glance it to death or a lucky pen or two.

**Savageconvoy**

I guess you could if you ran out of rail guns, missile pods, or even any S5 shooting attack and you really needed a lucky hit against that one last tank.

The problem isn't as a last resort "I have nothing left to do attack" it was presented as a "This is a threat to tanks" attack.

That and it's coming from someone who doesn't run suits with missile pods but thinks that suits with flamers will do just fine at taking down a tank.

**Jancoran**

Desubot wrote:
Quite frankly a crisis suit assault is straight up a last resort but if the situation allows for it why not.
Immobilized vehicle, rear area artillery, or a vehicle that you need removed but failed to kill during your shooting phase.

Against a stationary vehicle it should be fine to assault it as st5 should at the least glance it to death or a lucky pen or two.

That's the point exactly. After the initla "burn", the enemy makes the choice to charge or retreat. if there's a nearby vehicle it now must choose to move or full fire. You've affected the enemy's plans here!

STr 5...IS..a threat...to tanks, Savageconvoy. This should not require explanation to anyone who knows what they are talking about. Stunning the Manticore matters. Killing it? Bonus. Matters not when in the game you threaten something. That you do is reason enough for concern by the affected party.

Consider this: if I took three units of flamer suits (and no... please understand that I am not telling you you should...), how many points did I save over a bevy of Fireknives? and how many more Broadsides can I take for those points? Almost three, basically. It would be three with a little shuffling elsewhere. That's a big deal!

Wouldn't you RATHER hand your tank and elite killing duties over to three more Broadsides than leave that duty with the Crisis Suits? I sure would. Like every singly day, Twice on Sundays. Bonus is, you almost get three more Broadsides and you STILL get the three Crisis teams if you're hell bent on having them! With three more Broadsides your need for anti-tank has declined so you've lost nothing by adding more anti-personell to compliment it.

TL Flamer suits just comes with risk, but at a low cost. Their loss only maters in Mission 2. You might have lost them no matter what suit type they were. So risk yes, but not so great as to dissuade you from doing it unless you are just 100% risk averse, which is a personal choice and no reflection o nthe unit.

**Savageconvoy**

Oh yes. S5 is a threat to Tanks. That's why those Power axes are so effective as anti-tank killers. That's the reason nobody takes Melta bombs or Power fists anymore.

And "Anyone who knows what they are talking about" is apparently just someone who agrees with you. A glance and a pen are nothing worth mentioning when you're talking about leaving your suits out in the open for this attempt to take down the tank. Not to mention you're precious twin-linked flamers are of no help what so ever. Even the Burst cannon would have done marginally better.

I'm sorry but you can't honestly say you're threatening a tank with S5 suits when you have the options for Railguns and missilepods.

And why would you take Fireknife elites? Deathrains with a flamer are much more lethal and right in the price range between Fireknives and the twin-linked flamer. And if you're having that hard of a time fitting Broadsides into your list, then you have significant issues elsewhere.

Why would I need to hand over the duty to more Broadsides when I already have no problem fielding all that I need? What kind of list are you running where this is an issue?

And more importantly you miss the point. Broadsides are wonderful at anti-tank. I think we can both agree to that. But the crisis suits offer the ability to take a good S7 weapon with wonderful range and effective accuracy. Why would you give that up for anti-infantry fire? The FW have that covered. I'd even go so far as to say that the Stealth Suits would do a better job, since even their burst cannon has better range.

So yeah. I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. Waving off the sacrifice of an expensive elite unit that could be far better utilized. How silly of me.

**Jancoran**

they wouldn't be in the open. They hop after attacks remember?