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 yakface wrote:


The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Thank you, Yak. This is the clearest statement that anyone has made in the entire thread.

NecronLord3 wrote:How hard would it be to simply make it a rule that you add up the number of models within the range of the number of shots being fired and only that number of models closest to the unit firing, may be removed as casualties?

This is precisely how I've been playing the game since the release of 6th ed based on my interpretation of the rules. The FAQ today has literally changed nothing about how i'm playing my games.

clively wrote:Consider this situation:
You have 5 Flamer guys shoot at the enemy. All 5 templates only cover this one lone guy out front and none of the other enemies are under the template. Let's say all wound and all 5 saves are failed. Previously this meant 5 dead enemy models, now it means 1 as the others are out of range of the template.

Now because the flamers have another weapon which has an 18" reach, if one of those are fired it is added to the wound pool and instead of 1 dead guy from the flamers you have now extended their reach and you could kill 5.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You don't extend the reach by using a different weapon with a longer range. By that logic i'll just put a Lascannon in a squad of Bolters and enjoy my 48" Bolter shots. It's completely illogical. The other weapon with a longer range would have absolutely no effect on the flamers that could only hit 1 model. The 5 wounds they caused still only apply to the one model they could hit. The other weapon with the longer range would be able to wound the next closest model to the one killed by those flamers. If it makes it easier for you, simply use different coloured dice or roll separately for each target model in this particular scenario. The 5 flamers could only hit one guy, so your wound rolls for him are rolled on red dice, while at the same time your wound roll for the weapon with the longer range is rolled on a white die.

People saying this is all of a sudden a nerf to the flamer are completely wrong. The nerf happened upon the release of 6th ed, you've just been playing them incorrectly!

Super, wound allocation suddenly makes more real world sense (Apart from the wording being awful as usual). Only regret is this does not extend to blast, so wound allocation still doesnt make any wordly sense

It's an abstraction, just like in 5E, when you could take casualties off the back of your unit.

Enceladus wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:How hard would it be to simply make it a rule that you add up the number of models within the range of the number of shots being fired and only that number of models closest to the unit firing, may be removed as casualties?

This is precisely how I've been playing the game since the release of 6th ed based on my interpretation of the rules. The FAQ today has literally changed nothing about how i'm playing my games.

clively wrote:Consider this situation:
You have 5 Flamer guys shoot at the enemy. All 5 templates only cover this one lone guy out front and none of the other enemies are under the template. Let's say all wound and all 5 saves are failed. Previously this meant 5 dead enemy models, now it means 1 as the others are out of range of the template.

Now because the flamers have another weapon which has an 18" reach, if one of those are fired it is added to the wound pool and instead of 1 dead guy from the flamers you have now extended their reach and you could kill 5.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You don't extend the reach by using a different weapon with a longer range. By that logic i'll just put a Lascannon in a squad of Bolters and enjoy my 48" Bolter shots. It's completely illogical. The other weapon with a longer range would have absolutely no effect on the flamers that could only hit 1 model. The 5 wounds they caused still only apply to the one model they could hit. The other weapon with the longer range would be able to wound the next closest model to the one killed by those flamers. If it makes it easier for you, simply use different coloured dice or roll separately for each target model in this particular scenario. The 5 flamers could only hit one guy, so your wound rolls for him are rolled on red dice, while at the same time your wound roll for the weapon with the longer range is rolled on a white die.

People saying this is all of a sudden a nerf to the flamer are completely wrong. The nerf happened upon the release of 6th ed, you've just been playing them incorrectly!

I am completely agreeing with you. Bolters do not suddenly have a potential 48" range.

Enceladus wrote:

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You don't extend the reach by using a different weapon with a longer range. By that logic i'll just put a Lascannon in a squad of Bolters and enjoy my 48" Bolter shots. It's completely illogical.

I think you misunderstand.

5 bolters shoot. The target unit is made up of 10 guys and only 1 is within 24" with 9 strung out behind it.
Pre FAQ: bolters could kill any of the 10 guys as only 1 needed to be in range and the wounds are simply allocated to the others.
Post FAQ: bolters can only kill the 1 guy who is actually within range of the weapon because the wounds cannot be allocated beyond range.

Next scenario:
5 bolters + 1 lascanon shoots. Same situation with target unit.
Pre FAQ: bolters+lascannon could kill any of the 10 guys.
Post FAQ: bolters+lascannon could kill any of the 10 guys... Because the lascannon that was fired means all of the models in the enemy unit are in range for wound allocation.

Third scenario
5 bolters + 1 lascanon. Target unit is actually at 30" range.
Pre FAQ: bolters can't shoot due to being out of range. Lascanon could.
Pre FAQ: bolters can't shoot due to being out of range. Lascanon could.

In other words, it didn't change how far your weapons go for purposes of determining if they can shoot. It changed how many guys can take wounds based upon ALL of the weapons being fired from the unit.

 puma713 wrote:

 yakface wrote:


The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Thank you, Yak. This is the clearest statement that anyone has made in the entire thread.

Agreed.

So a 24" weapon unit with RF would be able to rapid fire enemy unit if they are within 12" of the closest and wound everybody if 1 models range can reach every enemy model

clively wrote:

Enceladus wrote:

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You don't extend the reach by using a different weapon with a longer range. By that logic i'll just put a Lascannon in a squad of Bolters and enjoy my 48" Bolter shots. It's completely illogical.

I think you misunderstand.

5 bolters shoot. The target unit is made up of 10 guys and only 1 is within 24" with 9 strung out behind it.
Pre FAQ: bolters could kill any of the 10 guys as only 1 needed to be in range and the wounds are simply allocated to the others.
Post FAQ: bolters can only kill the 1 guy who is actually within range of the weapon because the wounds cannot be allocated beyond range.

Next scenario:
5 bolters + 1 lascanon shoots. Same situation with target unit.
Pre FAQ: bolters+lascannon could kill any of the 10 guys.
Post FAQ: bolters+lascannon could kill any of the 10 guys... Because the lascannon that was fired means all of the models in the enemy unit are in range for wound allocation.

Third scenario
5 bolters + 1 lascanon. Target unit is actually at 30" range.
Pre FAQ: bolters can't shoot due to being out of range. Lascanon could.
Pre FAQ: bolters can't shoot due to being out of range. Lascanon could.

In other words, it didn't change how far your weapons go for purposes of determining if they can shoot. It changed how many guys can take wounds based upon ALL of the weapons being fired from the unit.

 puma713 wrote:

 yakface wrote:


The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Thank you, Yak. This is the clearest statement that anyone has made in the entire thread.

Agreed.

Agree

Well since everyone is doing it... I guess I concur...

olcottr wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I'm confused as to what the confusion was with removing models within weapon range? Was this not the rule in 6th? We've been playing this way since 6th edition came out.

Seemingly lots of people didn't get it but the top of page 16 was clear as to what to do when it came to range.
That paragraph is now wrong as per the faq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olcottr wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I'm confused as to what the confusion was with removing models within weapon range? Was this not the rule in 6th? We've been playing this way since 6th edition came out.

So have we, but apparently the BRB is not explicit in this regard.

It kinda was.

Not to someone who has played 4E and 5E.

Funnily enough I've played both of those games.

 Dozer Blades wrote:


I am completely agreeing with you. Bolters do not suddenly have a potential 48" range.

No, they don't. What it is saying is that if I have 1 of your units within range of all of my bolters, I can roll To-Hit with all of my bolters and place them in the Wound Pool. If you are 25" away, I can't roll To-Hit against you anyway. So, let's say that 3 of your guys are in range of all of my bolters. So, I get 10 shots against those 3 guys, 24" away. Before the FAQ, I could only kill those 3 guys.

Post-FAQ, as long as I have someone in my unit that can hit someone outside of that 24" range, I can still allocate bolter shots beyond 24" away. So, for instance, if I had a missile launcher in the unit, then my bolters don't stop at those 3 guys 24" away. They continue into the unit, up to a max range of 48". if anyone in the unit is 49" away, nothing can be allocated to him, because he is outside of max range of the unit.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

olcottr wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I'm confused as to what the confusion was with removing models within weapon range? Was this not the rule in 6th? We've been playing this way since 6th edition came out.

Seemingly lots of people didn't get it but the top of page 16 was clear as to what to do when it came to range.
That paragraph is now wrong as per the faq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olcottr wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I'm confused as to what the confusion was with removing models within weapon range? Was this not the rule in 6th? We've been playing this way since 6th edition came out.

So have we, but apparently the BRB is not explicit in this regard.

It kinda was.

Not to someone who has played 4E and 5E.

Funnily enough I've played both of those games.

Do you have a memory wipe program? Because I still have 4E and 5E rules running around in my head.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Makutsu wrote:
So a 24" weapon unit with RF would be able to rapid fire enemy unit if they are within 12" of the closest and wound everybody if 1 models range can reach every enemy model

That's the way I see it.

 Makutsu wrote:
So a 24" weapon unit with RF would be able to rapid fire enemy unit if they are within 12" of the closest and wound everybody if 1 models range can reach every enemy model

Correct, mind you RF doesn't decrease range it simpily says that if you are within half distance you get an extra shot, not that you have halve your range to get 2 shots. There is a difference there.

clively wrote:

Consider this situation:
You have 5 Flamer guys shoot at the enemy. All 5 templates only cover this one lone guy out front and none of the other enemies are under the template. Let's say all wound and all 5 saves are failed. Previously this meant 5 dead enemy models, now it means 1 as the others are out of range of the template.

Now because the flamers have another weapon which has an 18" reach, if one of those are fired it is added to the wound pool and instead of 1 dead guy from the flamers you have now extended their reach and you could kill 5.

But templates don't roll to hit, making them exempt from the FAQ changes, which didn't affect them before.

FenixZero wrote:

clively wrote:

Consider this situation:
You have 5 Flamer guys shoot at the enemy. All 5 templates only cover this one lone guy out front and none of the other enemies are under the template. Let's say all wound and all 5 saves are failed. Previously this meant 5 dead enemy models, now it means 1 as the others are out of range of the template.

Now because the flamers have another weapon which has an 18" reach, if one of those are fired it is added to the wound pool and instead of 1 dead guy from the flamers you have now extended their reach and you could kill 5.

But templates don't roll to hit, making them exempt from the FAQ changes, which didn't affect them before.

Not quite. The FAQ says "when rolling to Hit" meaning during that part of the Shooting Phase. That flamer hits are resolved differently does not give them immunity.

From BRB p 52, Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the
base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as
many models in the target unit as possible, without touching
any other friendly models (including other models from the
firing model's unit). Ary rnodels fully or partially under the
template are hit.

seems to only effect burnas since everything else has at least 1 other weapon that i can think of and would hardly ever be able to use all flamers since you want touch friendlies.Since this isn't called dakka dakka i guess we don't care about orks and can just move on.

templates are effected, it's what is within range of the template.

"5 bolters shoot. The target unit is made up of 10 guys and only 1 is within 24" with 9 strung out behind it.
Pre FAQ: bolters could kill any of the 10 guys as only 1 needed to be in range and the wounds are simply allocated to the others.
Post FAQ: bolters can only kill the 1 guy who is actually within range of the weapon because the wounds cannot be allocated beyond range.

Next scenario:
5 bolters + 1 lascanon shoots. Same situation with target unit.
Pre FAQ: bolters+lascannon could kill any of the 10 guys.
Post FAQ: bolters+lascannon could kill any of the 10 guys... Because the lascannon that was fired means all of the models in the enemy unit are in range for wound allocation.

Third scenario
5 bolters + 1 lascanon. Target unit is actually at 30" range.
Pre FAQ: bolters can't shoot due to being out of range. Lascanon could.
Pre FAQ: bolters can't shoot due to being out of range. Lascanon could.

In other words, it didn't change how far your weapons go for purposes of determining if they can shoot. It changed how many guys can take wounds based upon ALL of the weapons being fired from the unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting."

This right here makes it clear for me.

 jegsar wrote:
seems to only effect burnas since everything else has at least 1 other weapon that i can think of and would hardly ever be able to use all flamers since you want touch friendlies.Since this isn't called dakka dakka i guess we don't care about orks and can just move on.

templates are effected, it's what is within range of the template.

Burnas can upgrade up to 3 Burnas to Meks for free. Meks have KMB. Upgrade one Burna to a Mek and you are fine.

perfect, problem solved

Here is the tricky question. When firing from a vehicle would you have to shoot one of the weapons that had the greater range?

Example:
Space marines in rhino shoot 2 flamers out the top. Would their range still be up to what a bolter could shoot or would they be limited to the models that fired?

 Tomb King wrote:
Here is the tricky question. When firing from a vehicle would you have to shoot one of the weapons that had the greater range?

Example:
Space marines in rhino shoot 2 flamers out the top. Would their range still be up to what a bolter could shoot or would they be limited to the models that fired?

Only what fired

"shooting models", so yes you would need to do bolter and flamer.

 puma713 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:


I am completely agreeing with you. Bolters do not suddenly have a potential 48" range.

No, they don't. What it is saying is that if I have 1 of your units within range of all of my bolters, I can roll To-Hit with all of my bolters and place them in the Wound Pool. If you are 25" away, I can't roll To-Hit against you anyway. So, let's say that 3 of your guys are in range of all of my bolters. So, I get 10 shots against those 3 guys, 24" away. Before the FAQ, I could only kill those 3 guys.

Post-FAQ, as long as I have someone in my unit that can hit someone outside of that 24" range, I can still allocate bolter shots beyond 24" away. So, for instance, if I had a missile launcher in the unit, then my bolters don't stop at those 3 guys 24" away. They continue into the unit, up to a max range of 48". if anyone in the unit is 49" away, nothing can be allocated to him, because he is outside of max range of the unit.

No, before the FAQ you could kill anyone in the unit. As stated on page 16 as long as an enemy unit starts in range they remain in range of firing even if casualty removal takes models out of range. Only by entirely changing the wording do you get any other interpretation.

Post FAQ you can only kill people up to the furthest range possible int he shooting models.

Stupid, ugly, ugly change.

This is a bit of a boost to assault based units. Shooting units will need to get a bit closer in order to maximize their shooting, rather than form a gun-line at the minimum distance possible to be in range of the targeted unit.

rollawaythestone wrote:
This is a bit of a boost to assault based units. Shooting units will need to get a bit closer in order to maximize their shooting, rather than form a gun-line at the minimum distance possible to be in range of the targeted unit.

Unless they have an autocannon, lascannon, missile launcher, heavy bolter etc...

rollawaythestone wrote:
This is a bit of a boost to assault based units. Shooting units will need to get a bit closer in order to maximize their shooting, rather than form a gun-line at the minimum distance possible to be in range of the targeted unit.

Or have a single model with longer range.
Yes, shooting will be weaker but it will be an uneven change. Some units wont even bother, some will change dramatically. All depending on weapon options allowed for the squad.

Since when does GW care about un even changes. this also allows for crazy stuff like putting 3 havocs out of range of their havocs and leaving 1 in (assuming their non HW havocs are closwer to soak up wounds first. The one that is in of yours is he only HW that can die...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
This is a bit of a boost to assault based units. Shooting units will need to get a bit closer in order to maximize their shooting, rather than form a gun-line at the minimum distance possible to be in range of the targeted unit.

Unless they have an autocannon, lascannon, missile launcher, heavy bolter etc...

No you are still required to get a tad bit closer in order to reach the farthest guy in the unit meaning that overall makes the distance between assault and shooty untis closer

 puma713 wrote:

 yakface wrote:


The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Thank you, Yak. This is the clearest statement that anyone has made in the entire thread.

Well it will definitely make you think twice now about which wound groups to have your opponent resolve first.

 Makutsu wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
This is a bit of a boost to assault based units. Shooting units will need to get a bit closer in order to maximize their shooting, rather than form a gun-line at the minimum distance possible to be in range of the targeted unit.

Unless they have an autocannon, lascannon, missile launcher, heavy bolter etc...

No you are still required to get a tad bit closer in order to reach the farthest guy in the unit meaning that overall makes the distance between assault and shooty untis closer

It really does not.

Say you have a unit of Tac marines with bolters. Before you could be within 24 inches of one guy and kill the whole unit. Now you need to be within 24 inches of every model that you want to kill for them to be able to doe.

However if you have a missile launcher in the unit with 9 tac marines with bolters then the bolters only need to be within 24 inches of one guy to be able to kill everone within 48 inches of the unit.

Therefore the distance is really not any closer.