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 Seaward wrote:
That will not change despite your usual tactic of repeating something until people stop listening to you.

Stop projecting and give a sound argument.

I like how Sebster is arguing against facts given by the FBI to be true, that here, more armed citizens = less crime in any form. Yet he lives in a country that did just what he is saying we should do, and the crime rates fething exploded skywards. Home invations, armed robberies, violent crimes you name it. Odd too, because this is the same cookie cutter thing that has happened in other countries that have done the same thing *coughUKcough* Just saying. Id love it if people that are against us having our firearms, to actually do more then watch Peirs Morgan and get their facts from him

 Ahtman wrote:
Stop projecting and give a sound argument.

If you're having issues comprehending my very simple argument, I'm happy to rephrase it. Just tell me what's challenging and I'll say it a different way.

Claims that we have verifiable evidence that banning guns outright would result in a drop in firearms homicides in this country because it - arguably - worked for some Commonwealth countries that have done it in all but name are simply disingenuous. Neither Britain nor Australia had anywhere near the number of guns per capita we have, and more to the point, probably not even a tenth of the illegal guns per capita.

Suicides by firearm would decline, certainly, as would fatal firearm accidents, but no one's up in arms about getting guns off the streets because of suicide. I'd say that's a poor argument, anyway, as I'm of the opinion you've got the right to kill yourself if you so choose. The focus of all of this proposed legislation, and the movement behind it, is firearm crime. The notion that the illegal gun supply in this country, or a committed citizen's availability to access an illegal firearm, would dry up simply due to a ban is as ludicrous as it comes.

 Seaward wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Stop projecting and give a sound argument.

If you're having issues comprehending my very simple argument, I'm happy to rephrase it. Just tell me what's challenging and I'll say it a different way.

So says the king of ad hominem, whose response to a call to stop going after the poster...is to go after the poster. And yet, still no real argument with support, just insults and an unearned sense of superiority. You are now probably everything you hate in other people. Way to go.

Way to ignore the rest of his argument there Ahtman. If only we had a golf clap moticon

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

I also add that our violent crime stats include crimes that are not counted as 'violent crimes' in the USA. Perhaps because we as a nation are not as desensetised to violence as the US. Not having monthly mass killings probably does that to you as a nation after a while. Don't worry, if you can't look after yourselves, you could always ask the grown ups to give you a hand

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

That's got more to do with abortion then with any anti-crime measure, though.

Depending on who you read, I like Freakonomics too, but some people strongly dispute those findings. I'd personally say it's one of many factors, and they have found in a lot of areas that improved concealed carry laws (such as actually allowing it) does effectively reduce crime.

Over all US crime rates have been dropping significantly and consistently for quite awhile now. Longer then just the 90s

The people that dispute the findings aren't disputing the effect in general, just the extent - the harshest critic says the effect was only half as significant as claimed, which in any event is still pretty major regardless of who is right.

 Seaward wrote:
There absolutely is when it comes to death by homicide, yes. That will not change despite your usual tactic of repeating something until people stop listening to you.

No, seriously, numbers are real things that tell people things about the real world. And this area has been extensively studied.

I mean, I know I'm basically wasting my time telling you this because you couldn't even get through the first sentence of mine you were quoting, so the odds of you going and reading about this are basically zero, but the point still remains, whether you can be bothered learning it or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingCracker wrote:
I like how Sebster is arguing against facts given by the FBI to be true, that here, more armed citizens = less crime in any form. Yet he lives in a country that did just what he is saying we should do, and the crime rates fething exploded skywards. Home invations, armed robberies, violent crimes you name it.

Actually, those are complete lies told by the NRA. Crime hasn't exploded, it's continued its steady decline like in all developed countries. Whereas crimes committed with firearms, and more specifically murders and suicides by firearms have dropped markedly.

http://www.monash.edu.au/news/show/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats

Seriously, the numbers aren't even hard to find. Go to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Learn. Realise the NRA are liars who'll tell you any old gak to sell their argument. Then stop listening to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:
Claims that we have verifiable evidence that banning guns outright would result in a drop in firearms homicides in this country because it - arguably - worked for some Commonwealth countries that have done it in all but name are simply disingenuous. Neither Britain nor Australia had anywhere near the number of guns per capita we have, and more to the point, probably not even a tenth of the illegal guns per capita.

Which are all arguments about why the effect would be less, or why it is not a viable political goal in the US, but is absolutely idiotic as a defence that it wouldn't lower murders by firearm. It isn't a complicated bit of maths, you know. When you ban guns the supply of guns reduces... this cannot be debated. The amount might not be material (certainly given the stockpile of guns in the US it is unlikely to material in the short term). When there are less guns available, they are used less.

Suicides by firearm would decline, certainly, as would fatal firearm accidents, but no one's up in arms about getting guns off the streets because of suicide. I'd say that's a poor argument, anyway, as I'm of the opinion you've got the right to kill yourself if you so choose.

And so now we can add mental health as another topic you know nothing about, but decided to form an opinion on anyway.

 Hordini wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

Although that isn't the point being made - rather that banning guns in the UK caused an 'explosion' in violent crime... Which it didn't... In any way shape or form. Much like it didn't in australia or any other developed country so far reportedly now buried under bodies and spent bullets.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Although that isn't the point being made - rather that banning guns in the UK caused an 'explosion' in violent crime... Which it didn't... In any way shape or form. Much like it didn't in australia or any other developed country so far reportedly now buried under bodies and spent bullets.

So, the UK banned guns, crime went down.

The US relaxed gun laws, crime went down.

I'm failing to see the Commonwealth's point here.

 Hordini wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

Your gun murder rate has been increasing, though.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

Your gun murder rate has been increasing, though.

I don't have the numbers on me to confirm or deny that, but doesn't that make sense? Especially considering the increasing militarization of the police force and the continued ramping up of the war on drugs, cop on bad guy and bad guy on bad guy. So I kinda fail to see how it matters to be honest. The murder rate's falling over all along with violent crime in general.

Clearly the only solution is more armed security at gun shows. People need protection.

I blame video games and nudity on television.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Clearly the only solution is more armed security at gun shows. People need protection.

I blame video games and nudity on television.

I blame not enough nudity on television! That's just the ticket to mellow everyone out.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

Your gun murder rate has been increasing, though.

Actually, per the CDC, the rate has been dropping. While the bare numbers might be increasing, per capita their dropping because of the growth of our population. Almost my a whole 1 per 100,000 between 2000 and 2010.

If you want to just compare bare numbers though, then you from the UK have no footing to stand on with your near doubling of gun crime rates in that same time period.

 Seaward wrote:

 sebster wrote:
But there is no debate to be had over the idea that banning and restricting guns will lead to a fall in deaths by firearms.

There absolutely is when it comes to death by homicide, yes. That will not change despite your usual tactic of repeating something until people stop listening to you.

Oh snap!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
That will not change despite your usual tactic of repeating something until people stop listening to you.

Stop projecting and give a sound argument.

Oh snap II !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingCracker wrote:
Way to ignore the rest of his argument there Ahtman. If only we had a golf clap moticon

Buddha provide:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

Your gun murder rate has been increasing, though.

Thats just because we're lazy and would rather shoot you then beat you with a stick. America HURR!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Clearly the only solution is more armed security at gun shows. People need protection.

I blame video games and not enough nudity on television.

Corrected your typo.

Actually, those are complete lies told by the NRA. Crime hasn't exploded, it's continued its steady decline like in all developed countries. Whereas crimes committed with firearms, and more specifically murders and suicides by firearms have dropped markedly.

http://www.monash.edu.au/news/show/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats

Seriously, the numbers aren't even hard to find. Go to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Learn. Realise the NRA are liars who'll tell you any old gak to sell their argument. Then stop listening to them.

Right, so your gun crime went down. Notice I said CRIME. Not gun crime. And I wasnt using NRA facts, it was from a multitude of OTHER sites and sources that same pretty similar things. Your CRIME has shot up. Violent crime, robberies, home invasions and so on. Just like the UK did as well, which is why I mentioned the UK earlier.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

I also add that our violent crime stats include crimes that are not counted as 'violent crimes' in the USA. Perhaps because we as a nation are not as desensetised to violence as the US. Not having monthly mass killings probably does that to you as a nation after a while. Don't worry, if you can't look after yourselves, you could always ask the grown ups to give you a hand

Except your country has a far higher violent crime rate then your leading on, and also proving my point. It went UP after banning your guns.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

And a quick diagram for ya



You were saying?

I am going to keep a running tally in my signature about how comparing the UK violent crime rate to the US violent crime rate is fething stupid, because they are measured completely different.

It's like saying that the UK has more biscuits than the US because they eat more cookies than we eat bread.

Again, we count a lot of crimes in our violent crime stats that others don't. We also have a much higher rate of crime reporting.

And look at the actual crime reports or some of the official stats bodies rather than the bloody daily mail... Hell, even wikipedia is better than fox news light.

Again, on my phone so can't really post anything official, but from what I remember, the daily fail report is entirely inaccurate and misleading, as per usual. That is why no UK poster will ever cite the daily mail as a reputable source.

 d-usa wrote:
I am going to keep a running tally in my signature about how comparing the UK violent crime rate to the US violent crime rate is fething stupid, because they are measured completely different.

It's like saying that the UK has more buscuits than the US because they eat more cookies than we eat bread.

It is getting sort of boring seeing people keep using that. The amount of times it's been corrected in so many threads these people have read, and they still say it is amazing.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
*coughUKcough*

Exsqueezeme? I'm on my phone so can't go get the official crime reports (yet again in a thread about gun control I might add) but our crime rates didn't explode when we banned hand guns - it has been steadily dropping or maintained for quite some time...

Wow, that's funny. Our murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s and we didn't even have to ban handguns.

Your gun murder rate has been increasing, though.

I don't have the numbers on me to confirm or deny that, but doesn't that make sense? Especially considering the increasing militarization of the police force and the continued ramping up of the war on drugs, cop on bad guy and bad guy on bad guy. So I kinda fail to see how it matters to be honest. The murder rate's falling over all along with violent crime in general.

Actually it turns out your crime rate is well up since the 1960s, when you have a lot fewer guns.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Kilkrazy, are we looking at the same tables? Look at the rate per 100,000 in the population. Through the 70's, 80's, and 90's, crime was far higher than it is today.

Low crime in the 60's probably had more to do with population density, culture, and the population makeup as a whole. There were half as many people living in the US at the time.


Now refer to this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rtc.gif


Interesting how, starting in the late 80's we started seeing proliferation throughout the States of Right to Carry laws. More guns in civilians' hands, coinciding nicely with that reduction in crime rate from the 90's into 00's.

Ah yes... with guns and apple pie the US can defend against those dastardly commies and maintain freedom in the country that god made.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Kilkrazy, are we looking at the same tables? Look at the rate per 100,000 in the population. Through the 70's, 80's, and 90's, crime was far higher than it is today.

Low crime in the 60's probably had more to do with population density, culture, and the population makeup as a whole. There were half as many people living in the US at the time.


Now refer to this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rtc.gif


Interesting how, starting in the late 80's we started seeing proliferation throughout the States of Right to Carry laws. More guns in civilians' hands, coinciding nicely with that reduction in crime rate from the 90's into 00's.

Or maybe the crack epidemic of the 1980s had subsided slightly. But, y'know, whatever conclusion about causation you want to jump to.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Or maybe the crack epidemic of the 1980s had subsided slightly. But, y'know, whatever conclusion about causation you want to jump to.

Wait.

Hold the phone.

Are you suggesting that homicide rates in this country might be tied to the illegal drug trade in some way? Preposterous.

Guns make you kill. Simple as that.

Seaward wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Or maybe the crack epidemic of the 1980s had subsided slightly. But, y'know, whatever conclusion about causation you want to jump to.

Wait.

Hold the phone.

Are you suggesting that homicide rates in this country might be tied to the illegal drug trade in some way? Preposterous.

Guns make you kill. Simple as that.

You are clearly not paying attention, sir. The very article that sparked this thread has demonstrated that guns will try to kill with or without your help. The only defense against those guns, is to use different guns, to shoot the guns that try to kill on their own.

Or cover yourself in guns to deflect the bullets.