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 jy2 wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that vehicles can't contest. To do that, you'd actually have to disembark your guys.

I always go 2nd with the list so far. Lets me see where the enemy sets up and lets me maximize time in vehicle.

So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I think alot of people are bashing this list for alot of reasons that have nothing to do with its effectiveness. I agree that it would be hard for alot of non-tailored lists to beat; but that being said at my FLGS anyway we usually knows what everyone has and when someone comes up with a list like that the rest of us have fun tailoring to beat them..it's all in good fun and understood. And has also been said, there are some lists that would have no issues with it. In other words, it's just like any. other. list.

If the OP's looking for suggestions, the only thing I might recommend for the list is to drop one of the crusaders for a standard LR; as it's been pointed out it's almost impossible to bring all the hurricanes to bear and 2 TL lascannons with POTMS would give you some long ranged firepower and the option to better engage the enemy vehicles/flyers at longer range instead of just ignoring them.

 Tomb King wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I like the idea and I hope it keeps pounding dudes away!

Armies that could be a problem!

1. Necrons - Simply put, that list is almost an auto-win for most decent cron players. Just walk up with a warrior blob or two and eat the list alive. Even with bad cover they will be pouring as many shots on you as you will on them and they can stand back up. Those land raiders will be gone for good when they're gone.

2. Dark Eldar - Again, here's an army that really doesnt shrug a low model count high AV army. The lack of AV12 spam will like a christmas miracle to them! They can pour Dark Lances on your raiders and have the tools to nerf your range called night shields, something that many DE players take now in 6th.

3. Tau - Not as hard to fight as the two above, but they can still kill a land raider with decent ease.

Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

What mission was it? Remember that vehicles are never denial units, so I would assume you used bodies. Thats the real issue, your low body count HAS to get out to grab objectives and giving you first turn doesn't effect anyone because your range is miserable. Haywire wyches weren't mentioned either btw, they will rape those crusaders if they need to, which they shouldn't. Really every list should have some way to pop your banner toting tank which is what they should do. I think its a fun list (for you not your opponent) but I don't think it is hard to beat.

Really you have 4 huge tanks that all need to group up and have horrid range restriction and are not a squad so LOS can be an issue. Lets run down the lists you will struggle with:

DE, any tac or comp variety really
Tyranids, again almost any comp build out there will tear you apart
Demons, same as nids
Eldar, no really 3 units of fire dragons still ruins your day lets not even mention vibro canons or the fortuned wraithguard bomb ive seen lately
Necrons, really really obvious counters here the most laughable being a Death ray is guarenteed a money shot
IG, my list still packs 14 melta guns and multiple S10 large blasts, couple that with av 12 saturation + my russes and your screwed
Mostly you have a decent counter to marine armies currently as they are the colprates who have dropped melta for plasma as of late. GK I would say get screwed but I am seeing more and more DK which are actually a great solution for them.
Heck even sisters will have a field day with this list. I think its a cool build but I would be shocked to see this win a tournament baring insane luck with pairings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

And how does that counter his play? Now your shooting has dropped from awesome to subpar AND he has stopped your advance. Hillariously empty drop pods also ruin your day laughable hard and I am seeing more and more DP lists as they are amazing in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, while reading and then typing this thread has exploded!

At the very least I love how the synergies from the new DA codex are stirring great discussions.

The list is hard to break cause of the way meta is going in sixth. People are getting used to vehicles being glanced to death and that +4 inv save really messes things up, especially if we are talking about 4 LRs. Well done for thinking out of the box mate and I think people are bashing your cause your list isn't fun to play against, but that's not the point. No tournament is meant to be full of fun lists, people try and abuse rules.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I like the idea and I hope it keeps pounding dudes away!

Armies that could be a problem!

1. Necrons - Simply put, that list is almost an auto-win for most decent cron players. Just walk up with a warrior blob or two and eat the list alive. Even with bad cover they will be pouring as many shots on you as you will on them and they can stand back up. Those land raiders will be gone for good when they're gone.

2. Dark Eldar - Again, here's an army that really doesnt shrug a low model count high AV army. The lack of AV12 spam will like a christmas miracle to them! They can pour Dark Lances on your raiders and have the tools to nerf your range called night shields, something that many DE players take now in 6th.

3. Tau - Not as hard to fight as the two above, but they can still kill a land raider with decent ease.

Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

What mission was it? Remember that vehicles are never denial units, so I would assume you used bodies. Thats the real issue, your low body count HAS to get out to grab objectives and giving you first turn doesn't effect anyone because your range is miserable. Haywire wyches weren't mentioned either btw, they will rape those crusaders if they need to, which they shouldn't. Really every list should have some way to pop your banner toting tank which is what they should do. I think its a fun list (for you not your opponent) but I don't think it is hard to beat.

Really you have 4 huge tanks that all need to group up and have horrid range restriction and are not a squad so LOS can be an issue. Lets run down the lists you will struggle with:

DE, any tac or comp variety really
Tyranids, again almost any comp build out there will tear you apart
Demons, same as nids
Eldar, no really 3 units of fire dragons still ruins your day lets not even mention vibro canons or the fortuned wraithguard bomb ive seen lately
Necrons, really really obvious counters here the most laughable being a Death ray is guarenteed a money shot
IG, my list still packs 14 melta guns and multiple S10 large blasts, couple that with av 12 saturation + my russes and your screwed
Mostly you have a decent counter to marine armies currently as they are the colprates who have dropped melta for plasma as of late. GK I would say get screwed but I am seeing more and more DK which are actually a great solution for them.
Heck even sisters will have a field day with this list. I think its a cool build but I would be shocked to see this win a tournament baring insane luck with pairings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

And how does that counter his play? Now your shooting has dropped from awesome to subpar AND he has stopped your advance. Hillariously empty drop pods also ruin your day laughable hard and I am seeing more and more DP lists as they are amazing in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, while reading and then typing this thread has exploded!

At the very least I love how the synergies from the new DA codex are stirring great discussions.

The mission was scouring against the dark eldar player and he had no wyches he did the usual warrior spam with blasters. As a dark eldar player myself I have stopped running wyches. With the lingerie save of 6+ and all the snap firing out there they have really dropped in effectiveness. If wyches make it to vehicles then the opposing player seriously misplayed his target priorities.

The space wolves player had 2 drop pods come down near me. I shot them as I moved around them because my multimelta had nothing better to shoot at the time. So not really stopping my shooting/advance unless you have a lot of pods. Otherwise its just giving me something to get a kill point from.

Someone suggested in another thread of dropping the deathwing landraider and deathwing and picking up a Vanilla marines librarian with null zone and a regular landraider with lascannons for that codex. That would certainly stop the daemons argument to a degree.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Your solution is 'I'll kill it'? Of course you will, its expected, but if you aren't moving forward then its a win for your opponent. Especially considering your bolters and MMs are 18" range vs Nightshields, you can 12" flank move to your hearts content. At some point you need to advance to do anything.

I personally think the biggest weakness of the list is the blockiness of it. 4 LandRaiders all staying within 3" of a central one is a huge footprint, and assuming you aren't playing on planet bowling ball, its going to present tactical issues. Even turning to move to the side will be hard without the corners hitting the Landraider next to it. I don't know the quality of players in your local, so I won't make any assumptions, but IMO these are things that need to be thought about seriously before success in a large tournament can be achieved. 'I'll kill it' and stating weapon stats aren't enough in a competitive setting.

I'm not bashing the list or you, I'm just trying to help with some scenarios that you will come across down the line. Looking for things that will cause complications is a far better approach than assuming you'll steamroll everyone because its the lists destiny.

I play DE also and 5 wyches in a venom are amazing AT for their cost. I bring two of these units in most lists. You disembark, toss a HW nade, theres one hp and then assault and strip 2-3 more, thats insanely effective for the cost and it is not hard to get to your brick with.

Remember because of NS all your weapons are basically 18" meaning I can send one of these units down either of your flanks and hang just outside 18" meaning in order for you to engage one with your guns you HAVE to move toward them. The LR's gun mountings actually suck in this scenario and if you want to get those weapons in the middle of your hull in range you need to shift. Keep in mind there is one of these on either flank so you literally have to split up or lose a tank. If you split then you lose your save on some or one tank making its easy to shoot down.

Also, 3 voidravens is actually not as cost effective in this match up as 3 ravagers. 3 ravagers are cheaper, shoot you from turn one on and have 3 more shots per turn. I would like to see your opponents list if you can nab it actually.

also realized this morning as a side note that the new FAQ for shooting really REALLY hurts your list. You can only kill up to your max weapon range for the unit. In your case 24 across the board, this means that even against horde orks you can be countered, as I can run columns of orks instead of rows and you can only kill the first few. Late game you will cause more damage but if it takes three turns to start really chipping away ork mobs you are in a bad position.

 Clang wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

Your meta sucks and is full of BADS if that is your experience in 40K. If I ran into this list in my meta and it smashed our best dudes, we would be like "Hell Ya! Let's get to work boys we gotta champ to SMASH!" And every week we would try something new praying he brings the same list, because we would have fun drinkin beer and rollin dice against it!

So please don't try to put this bro down for coming up with a flavor of cheese that is so unique, its literally semi-raging almost everyone posting in this thread, if reading the responses is any indicator of subtle yet obvious hatred for the list.

@Beefcakesoup

It's not unique and it's not really cheese. It is a rock list that's solid against some aspects of the game and I could see it dominating a local scene. It's also boring as hell to play against.

Let's face it. Most 40k players aren't adaptive. First it costs money but more importantly it takes significant time to paint and address list issues. Something that makes an event unfun for even 4 people out of 16 is bad. It could reduce you're next attendance by 25%. This doesn't matter in this instance as TK isn't going to be running it locally if at all but I wouldn't be so quick to call people "bads".

I personally win a lot. My lists wouldn't have a problem with this. Most of my regular local top seeds wouldn't have a problem with it. However I build my lists, especially locally, with the intent of not just hammer smashing my opponents. I want their to be events to go to, not drive people out of the hobby.

Ours is a social game.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:

 Clang wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

Your meta sucks and is full of BADS if that is your experience in 40K. If I ran into this list in my meta and it smashed our best dudes, we would be like "Hell Ya! Let's get to work boys we gotta champ to SMASH!" And every week we would try something new praying he brings the same list, because we would have fun drinkin beer and rollin dice against it!

So please don't try to put this bro down for coming up with a flavor of cheese that is so unique, its literally semi-raging almost everyone posting in this thread, if reading the responses is any indicator of subtle yet obvious hatred for the list.

I think you are actually over reacting a bit here. This is the tactics forum so by far the majority of posts here have been to proof the list. It really is not an original idea either as by day two I had already heard people proofing a crusader with shield and dakka banner inside, the difference is those lists were using more green marines and an aegis and other supporting units to go on the offensive which I think is much more sound. I still don't understand having the DW and 4th LR in his list as it is not possible to keep all 4 within the 3" shield or 6" dakka buff without sacrificing one tanks LOS. I would like his list much more if all he did was drop those 2 very expensive items for more bodies.

Agreed. I love winning. At a tournament game I'm even more keen to win than ever. But I want the list to be fun to play -- preferably every game -- and that means it has a variety of ways of winning (and a variety of ways of being beaten too).

Id look out for salamanders with null zone. With the rerolls to hit for melta your likely to see double the number of melta weapons. Dev squads full of them behind ADLs + land speeders & or attack bikes with them. There's also the obligatory sternpod squad. TH/SS terms are also quite capable in a salamanders list of finishing off a LR. Then there's the libby striping away 50% your invul saves. How common this list is your local idk, but its common in these parts.

Otherwise id say pretty good. It'll thump hordes for sure.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Tomb King, where in DA dex can LR's take MM pintle mounted?

MarkyMark wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Tomb King, where in DA dex can LR's take MM pintle mounted?

PG. 104 under options for the crusader.

I offered a scale up list of the same thing in the army list thread. Where I actually dropped the 4th land raider for more troops and/or more anti-mech/fliers. In addition, someone suggested taking a normal vanilla land raider and a libby for null zone to help against daemon opponents and give me that longer range while still getting the 4+ invul. I think the sweet spot is 3 LR crusaders and some supporting cast. However, running 4 is fun in the aspect that the only things that can hurt you need to come through AV14 to do it.

I love to play against a list that is both out of the norm and challenging. I honestly dont mind when someone shows up with a crazy/wonky list that throws the meta asunder. It helps me as a player to learn how to beat that list with what I got or perhaps make an adjustment to my TAC list.

As for the two witches one on either side the best strategy for that would be to take all 4 land raiders to one side and make sure that one dies. If I was certain I could not maintain my 4+ while shooting at both.

 Tomb King wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Tomb King, where in DA dex can LR's take MM pintle mounted?

PG.

Thats where it is!, I was looking for this last week but was looking under the vehicle options table and did not see the option there for MM's!, cheers TK.

I do own 5 LR's and last night pulled apart a unfinished god hammer one and luckly had a redeemer and crusader sprue spare so I now have another crusader pattern, I do not think I have used LR's in a normal list yet (bar mini tourny last week using tac spam banner and LR crusader with the new dex) so will be able to finally get some use out of these.

I love this list.

I love that it would immediately make someone's jaw drop seeing it across the table, I love that it's totally a go-big-or-go-home type of list, and I love that if I ever see a list like that in my local scene, my Necrons will regularly table it (mechanized armies with a low model count is basically what Necrons eat for lunch).

Aside from the last bit, well done. I love seeing oddball lists, and even without my Necrons, I would have a blast playing against something like this.

I wouldn't wince at that list. Without any modifications, My guard should be able to devestate it at 1850pts. The raiders themselves fall prey to melta's and a manticore. Should I struggle, I can call on lascannons and demolisher cannons. Plus you have very few scoring units. If I wipe one out and hold all the objectives, even if you contest, you'll not win. You also have a lack of firepower for the point limit IMHO. It's a deathstar style list and if you put all your eggs in one basket, your opponants gonna blow it up.

I think people are seriously underestimating this list.

Necrons have been brought up as a counter. The idea that you will easily rip off 4 hull points with Gauss weaponry is a joke. On average, it will take 72 shots of Gauss in order to achieve the 8 glancing hits (remember, on average the 4++ will save half).

Scarabs are a huge threat, but not everyone runs them. Doomscythes are as well, but you get a single shot that has a 33% chance of penetrating and a 50% chance of getting through the 4++. Keep in mind you likely get rougly three passes per Doomscythe.

Other armies that have been brought up, such as Dark Eldar, show how out of touch many players are with the competitive scene. Dark lance spam is dead. It has been for some time.

I'm not saying this list is auto win. It isn't. I'm not saying that it isn't a rock. It certainly is. However, the average TAC list is going to struggle a bit if they try to take this head on.

 JGrand wrote:
I think people are seriously underestimating this list.

Necrons have been brought up as a counter. The idea that you will easily rip off 4 hull points with Gauss weaponry is a joke. On average, it will take 72 shots of Gauss in order to achieve the 8 glancing hits (remember, on average the 4++ will save half).

Scarabs are a huge threat, but not everyone runs them. Doomscythes are as well, but you get a single shot that has a 33% chance of penetrating and a 50% chance of getting through the 4++. Keep in mind you likely get rougly three passes per Doomscythe.

Other armies that have been brought up, such as Dark Eldar, show how out of touch many players are with the competitive scene. Dark lance spam is dead. It has been for some time.

I'm not saying this list is auto win. It isn't. I'm not saying that it isn't a rock. It certainly is. However, the average TAC list is going to struggle a bit if they try to take this head on.

I disagree. A well balance list should be fielding around 5-8 scoring units at this points level. On that alone, the lack of troops in this list is what made raider spam suck in previous editions. I would agree that some competitive lists don't account for this many AV14 vehicles but most would be able to take the victory from objective capturing. Seconded to that, quite a few armies now field enough heavy but cheap guns to ruin a raider spammers day. It's nothing new, people know how to deal with it and it's a big risk because each raider lost see's you losing the possibility of capturing a precious objective.

With the number of Wraiths, Warscythes, scarabs, Harbingers of the Storm, and Gauss Weapons that may be found in many competitive Necron list I'm a little surprised at someone trying to downplay them as a counter to this list.

Like others have said, you only have 2 scoring units, If you go up against a list with artillery, you will be hard pressed to cap an objective.

I for one use a FoR, all i would need to do is set it in the back corner and wait for you to unload your squad and just rail them with a krakstrom missile, large blase ordinance. Or a list with drop pod stern guards will rip you apart.

lizardwolf19 wrote:
I would think that DE would be able to kite your list really well, as some had mentioned before. Even a DE TAC list has fast lances in it somewhere, which could easily zoom around you stripping hull points and getting the occasional pen while staying out of your 24" range. That's your biggest hang up I think.

lances do twice as many pens (33%) as glances(16%) to anything with AV greater than 11.

Haywire grenades also wreck vehicles now. A min squad of wyches(60 points) averages 3.33 hull points.

Even with a 4++ some of those will get through.

 Monster Rain wrote:
With the number of Wraiths, Warscythes, scarabs, Harbingers of the Storm, and Gauss Weapons that may be found in many competitive Necron list I'm a little surprised at someone trying to downplay them as a counter to this list.

My competitive air crons list has 4x5 warriors, 5 to 6 wraiths and a destroyer lord with a scythe. That is all that I have in my army that can harm armor 14. If the warriors get out there is a good probability they get shot to death. So if my landraider spam list went up against my necron TAC I would be very hard pressed to bring the raiders down. The destroyer lord would have to earn his keep. That or play keep away until the last turn and hope I can grab the objectives.

Theoryhammer is profoundly stupid, but I think a "competitive" Cron list without Harbingers of the Storm is somewhat... unorthodox these days.

JGrand wrote:I think people are seriously underestimating this list.

Necrons have been brought up as a counter. The idea that you will easily rip off 4 hull points with Gauss weaponry is a joke. On average, it will take 72 shots of Gauss in order to achieve the 8 glancing hits (remember, on average the 4++ will save half).

Scarabs are a huge threat, but not everyone runs them. Doomscythes are as well, but you get a single shot that has a 33% chance of penetrating and a 50% chance of getting through the 4++. Keep in mind you likely get rougly three passes per Doomscythe.

Other armies that have been brought up, such as Dark Eldar, show how out of touch many players are with the competitive scene. Dark lance spam is dead. It has been for some time.

I'm not saying this list is auto win. It isn't. I'm not saying that it isn't a rock. It certainly is. However, the average TAC list is going to struggle a bit if they try to take this head on.

I agree that overall people are underestimating this list. But the Necron counters are not.

Yes, each Doomscythe will only get a single shot with a 33% chance of penetrating. But in order to keep the LRs within the bubble, they must be in a tight formation, and that means each Doomscythe will get at least 2, sometimes 3 LRs under the line for the Death Ray. 33% chance of pen with three chances per pass does not bode well for the DA.

72 Gauss shots is very easy to accomplish in any Silver Tide or Warrior-centric list.

And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

...but you definitely have a point about the DE. I think this list would absolutely wreck most DE lists.

 azazel the cat wrote:
I agree that overall people are underestimating this list. But the Necron counters are not.

I agree only partially. Some counters, like Doom Scythes are hard, like you said. But others aren't nearly as good as they sound at first.

 azazel the cat wrote:
72 Gauss shots is very easy to accomplish in any Silver Tide or Warrior-centric list.

Not actually that easy. You're forgetting that you need those 72 gauss shots outside rapid fire range, simply because when you come to within 24", you're gonna lose 20-30 Warriors per turn. So personally I'd say warrior list s going to lose badly.

 azazel the cat wrote:
And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

Depends. Most lists have only 2-4 Stormteks and Stormteks have only 12" range, and getting within that range requires transport. And while standard MSU in Night Scythes makes putting them within range easy, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose those units after killing 1-2 LR's.

My friend is running a Tau-ork combo that I think will make mincemeat out of this list. I actually have an urge to try out a DA LR-spam list against his army just to see how badly I may or may not get smoked. Hmmmm....perhaps a future battle report? We'll see.

Anyways, his list goes something like this:

Shas'el
Biker Warboss

Nob biker unit

6x Fire Warriors
5x20 kroots
2x30 orks

3x3 broadsides
Bastion