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Allied Guard. A cheap hq, a penal legion troops squad and then 2 or 3 hydras for heavy support and/or some vendettas.

Mythantor wrote:

 StormK wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Distributing your squad on different levels on ruins help as well, more than once I've been only able to burn 3- marines due to them being on different levels and only being able to target the most crowded level. That isn't a counter but makes the helldrake less effective, also as mentioned above your own flyers/ADL or lots of shots will take him down.

Wow. I think Joey may have cheated me. I had ten scouts w/ sniper rifles holding an objective on the second and third floor of an admin building. He flamed the 6 on the top floor on turn two, then, next turn soul blaze killed 3 on the floor below. I argued that you can't target multiple levels of a building but he told me soul blaze affected the unit regardless "'cause it's magic".

Its a bit wierd that jump/jet packs, jet bikes and skimmers can all target any level of a ruin however flyes cannot?

Flyers can as well, but they can only target one lvl, if you distribute your models between say 3 levels and with max space the flamer will kill 2-3 marines max.

The only thing that hits the top lvl iirc are Barrage shots

 Dr. Serling wrote:


Foot armies became more popular in 6th, and then what do you know, the 1st 6th codex gets a unit that flies and is designed to kill infantry in the open!?

Land raiders can't be touched by a hellturkey, and have weapons capable of hurting the bird. Godhammer lascannons are pretty good, as well as crusader assault cannons. Since you are snap shooting anyways, you can move a full "12, and POTMS any weapons that wont hurt it(hurricane bolters, heavy bolters ETC) into another unit. Keep your marines inside.

I got rid of my land raiders 'cause I couldn't see spending the points for something that gets glanced to death then I have to walk anyway.
Remember what they did with GK? I think the FAQ intentionally boosted the Helldrakes in order to sell expensive models that no one was buying. After they've had enough sales they will nerf the Helldrakes. Just a thought...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Scouts are sv4+ aren't they?

Yes, carapace...I almost cried.

but tears are unmanly...

I doubt it, the helldrake was already really good and selling well, hard to find a csm list without one.

Land Raiders are still pretty good. Many lists go light on weapons that can even glance them.

 Chumbalaya wrote:

If anything, the FW fans should be really happy about the drake changes. I used to think that FW had balance issues (Mortis Contemptors and Saber Platforms in particular), but now that GW has screwed the pooch I wouldn't feel guilty about throwing down a pair of Mortis Contemptors.

Love this line of reasoning. Before I shamelessly used broken units, now I'm happy to have an excuse to keep doing it.

haroon wrote:
Soul blaze would kill the ones on another level, but helldrakes dont have soul blaze.

The Baleflamer has soulblaze. Please look this kind of stuff up, before you post incorrect information.

"CHEEESE!!!" is the battle cry of the ill-prepared.

Plenty of things either drop a Dragon or can ignore it.

Martel732 wrote:
Land Raiders are still pretty good. Many lists go light on weapons that can even glance them.

This is my experience as well. Between the increased prevalence of plasma and Autocannons, the corresponding decrease in melta and the added flat-out movement Land Raiders seem more and more attractive.

i agree with you that the heldrake isn't very well balanced. the strength rating is a little over board for having ap3 and no cover saves allowed. my only advice is to run death wing. i give no cares about the thing because of the 2+ in my army. i really don't see how else you can avoid the thing as any army that can't take scoring terminators. it's a pretty broken unit i will admit.

haroon wrote:
I doubt it, the helldrake was already really good and selling well, hard to find a csm list without one.

My CSM list hasn't got one.

 Flinty wrote:
Allied Guard. A cheap hq, a penal legion troops squad and then 2 or 3 hydras for heavy support and/or some vendettas.

cool. $200 worth of models later and now i can counter a single model. sounds reasonable.

I dunno, I can see GW going, "oh darnit, we didn't mean a 360 degree turret! We meant 180 degree, the birdies neck isn't quite that flexible!"

Well, Vendettas can go kill any number of juicy CSM targets after they have vaporized the Helturkeys. The Vendetta is so good its kinda scary.

 StormK wrote:
Okay, there's a lot of heat in these arguments so I'l try to explain my position.
I try to play 40k without "cheese" units. You know, I want to beat my opponents by outsmarting them, or by using better tactics.

Just throwing this out there but list building is tactics.

Maybe, but GW has lots of special characters and units that are overpowered and unbalancing. Like the kid in the arcade who wins because he is a button-masher and knows one unblockable move, playing against these units is aggravating and takes the game from fun to enfuriating. I don't want my opponent to be frustrated as he watches helplessly as I rip through his defenses because I have a unit for whom the rules do not apply.

 StormK wrote:
Maybe, but GW has lots of special characters and units that are overpowered and unbalancing. Like the kid in the arcade who wins because he is a button-masher and knows one unblockable move, playing against these units is aggravating and takes the game from fun to infuriating. I don't want my opponent to be frustrated as he watches helplessly as I rip through his defenses because I have a unit for whom the rules do not apply.

Which is why you learn the strengths and weaknesses of each codex. No good general ever fights blind. Even if you have to go to your LFGS or GW to read the newest codex for an hour, you need to be ready. Complaining about how OP some unit is, while perhaps justified, does not at all mean that the unit cannot be beaten. You simply have to prepare.

Maybe you need a Quadgun against the Heldrake, or maybe you need a Stormtalon (which I rather like, I usually take two). Not being prepared is no excuse for a unit facerolling. That'd be like a Dark Eldar player knowing he's going to be playing GK Draigowing and taking only Lelith and Wyches. That's not really going to work. Taking 3 Ravagers with 3 Disintegrators each would be better. Or maybe he simply knows he'll be playing Space Marines. What's he going to do? Play his pure Wych Cult list? No, he's going to try to find ways to both put out lots of shots/attacks as well as negate those 2+/3+ armor saves.

Dark Lances are actually better against Paladins than Disintegrators are. They only fire 1/3 the shots, but those shots wound on 2's instead of 3's and inflict instant death (so ignore 2W and FNP).

You'll get about 25% more casualties from a Dark Lance.

 Flinty wrote:
Allied Guard. A cheap hq, a penal legion troops squad and then 2 or 3 hydras for heavy support and/or some vendettas.

Doesn't the FOC for allies only allow 1 fast attack choice?

Obrac wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Allied Guard. A cheap hq, a penal legion troops squad and then 2 or 3 hydras for heavy support and/or some vendettas.

Doesn't the FOC for allies only allow 1 fast attack choice?

Guard can squadron a bunch of their units. Allowing you to get up to three of the units with one slot.

Checked out the vendetta. I don't know if it fits in with a DKOK themed army but it would kill Helldrakes nicely. IG allies are definitely the answer. I plan to ally Death Korps with my Marines Malevolent, and with my CSM...

Quick hijack ...

Would allying in Dark Eldar with their Razorwings be a viable counter to the Helldrake? Seems like the Baleflamer would do diddly against one.

Obrac wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Allied Guard. A cheap hq, a penal legion troops squad and then 2 or 3 hydras for heavy support and/or some vendettas.

Doesn't the FOC for allies only allow 1 fast attack choice?

vendettas can be taken in squads of 3.

 orchewer wrote:
Quick hijack ...

Would allying in Dark Eldar with their Razorwings be a viable counter to the Helldrake? Seems like the Baleflamer would do diddly against one.

you forgot something the helldrake can vectorstrike the thing and kill it ... otherwise you might kill it then you might not, 4s to glance 5s to pen is pretty standard for darklances anyway. Luck on the day really

@ OP-anyway, it might sound harsh but the thing should die ASAP, the stormtalon has a decent chance at killing it, you have to accept the fact that you have to plan to encounter one and take a counter...

Though if you have problems with the Helldrake, good luck fighting the dinobots (forge fiends mostly) as they can just be as resilient

phoenixrisin wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Allied Guard. A cheap hq, a penal legion troops squad and then 2 or 3 hydras for heavy support and/or some vendettas.

cool. $200 worth of models later and now i can counter a single model. sounds reasonable.

There are 2 of them remember Also I don't remember cost being a concern of the OP

2 helldrakes is tough.
This Weekend, i had to endure 3, with 4 allied necron crescents.
Awful game, boring as hell...

This picture is the exact reason why I'm not a big fan of tournaments (except for the fact that it gives you the opportunity to battle different opponents) because this kind of game isn't fun
A challenging and tough game is great, a boring and one-sided one because you're not fielding 3 Vendettas "just in case" is just plain crap

I sure hope it wasn't a "friendly" game (note that some of my previous co-gamers in France were all for the power-meta-ubber-army for every single game)

TanKoL wrote:
This picture is the exact reason why I'm not a big fan of tournaments (except for the fact that it gives you the opportunity to battle different opponents) because this kind of game isn't fun
A challenging and tough game is great, a boring and one-sided one because you're not fielding 3 Vendettas "just in case" is just plain crap

I sure hope it wasn't a "friendly" game (note that some of my previous co-gamers in France were all for the power-meta-ubber-army for every single game)

The picture above is why I hate allies in tournaments.

-Matt

Rugrud , interested to know whatelse was in that heldrakex3 list?

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Rugrud , interested to know whatelse was in that heldrakex3 list?

Terminator Lord
2x5 Plague Marines
3xHelldrakes

Necron lord
2xImmortals + Crescent
1x Deathmarks + Crescent
1x Heavy Crescent

Full battle report here (in french):
http://armees-franssoue.blogspot.fr/2013/01/masters-de-boulogne-partie-3-contre-les.html

Previous game in the tournament was againts 5 Crescents + 1 Helldrake...
http://armees-franssoue.blogspot.fr/2013/01/master-de-boulogne-2e-partie-contre.html