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What are peoples opinions on running a melta vet squad with three melta's plus the Demo perk in a chimera? The demo charge is a nice last 'up yours buddy!' and I like the idea that if they miss their intended target that they can charge in and wipe it out in CC. Is 30pts too much for this luxury?

 Deceiver wrote:
What are peoples opinions on running a melta vet squad with three melta's plus the Demo perk in a chimera? The demo charge is a nice last 'up yours buddy!' and I like the idea that if they miss their intended target that they can charge in and wipe it out in CC. Is 30pts too much for this luxury?

Demolitions is quite nice if you want to make a taac list and want to make sure that your melta vets can tackle hordes somewhat, along with other vehicles and terminators.

Put it on one or two.

If you put it on every vet squad, might as well have just brought another flyer/vet squad/tank or two.

I always take one if I'm riding in a Chimera. But I prefer Grenade Launchers and Plasma to Melta Guns.

 phantommaster wrote:
But I prefer Grenade Launchers

For what, paperweights?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
But I prefer Grenade Launchers

For what, paperweights?

I second, Grenade launchers are a no go

Demo on vets are pretty good. You will probably get better use out of them if you put them in a valk though. If you really want to get crazy, put three demo charges in a SWS, drop them off somewhere with a valk, and enjoy the fireworks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I wouldn't expect to be charging anything once you get out of that chimera. Quite the opposite really with the new rules, especially if you are in range to throw a demo pack.

You can't fit three demo charges in one SWS. I only allows one. The vendetta's taken i'm afraid.

If Chimeras were open topped, I'd be all over vets with 3x meltaguns, shotguns, democharge and meltabomb.
But, since you can't disembark and assault, and you won't survive sitting in the open if you have a viable target for 10 melta bombs, it seems like over-kill.

I've done better with no democharge, and just having more guys with meltaguns and krak grenades. Anything that the krak grenades can't kill, the meltaguns do.

-Matt

Yeah, the charging may prove a problem but the chimera's generally been wrecked before i've got a melta-gun shot off. My worry is, am I spending 30pts for a very situational benefit? I think I am, but 10 meltabombs is one hell of a benifit.

Unless it got FAQ'd, you can. Take a look at the codex, it says nothing about being limited to 1 demo charge in their entry. It says three guardsmen must choose one of the following so you have three guardsmen with three choices (one each), one of which is a demo charge.

 Deceiver wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
But I prefer Grenade Launchers

For what, paperweights?

I second, Grenade launchers are a no go

5pts cheaper and I don't have to get as close. S6 is enough for most things and the blast is handy for hordes. Especially when I have 17 at 1500pts plus all the backup tanks. Demo charges and Melta Bombs are for up close work.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
Unless it got FAQ'd, you can. Take a look at the codex, it says nothing about being limited to 1 demo charge in their entry. It says three guardsmen must choose one of the following so you have three guardsmen with three choices (one each), one of which is a demo charge.

Yep. I used to do it all the time, and still do from time to time. Sanguinary Guard armies hate it.

Generally, a savy opponent will be wise enough to hve their vehicles avoid things with melta or meltabombs. It's a deterrent more or less to have those melta bombs and the chimera just doesn't give you the mobility to get in your opponents face with said melta bombs like you really need to. You're really only paying for the demo charge at that point. Not sure how I feel about a 6 in range large blast in a chimera. Seems pretty situational. If you're going up against tons of MCs then I could see all aspects of the upgrade going in your favor, but as is, most armies aren't about the MCs.

 phantommaster wrote:

 Deceiver wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
But I prefer Grenade Launchers

For what, paperweights?

I second, Grenade launchers are a no go

5pts cheaper and I don't have to get as close. S6 is enough for most things and the blast is handy for hordes. Especially when I have 17 at 1500pts plus all the backup tanks. Demo charges and Melta Bombs are for up close work.

True but the AP4 struggles against the targets I need the extra strength against. It's better to upgrade to the plasma gun for the rapid fire and better AP. Also, it doesn't really do that well against hordes. For those reasons I use the Plasma gun but this is an anti-tank unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
Unless it got FAQ'd, you can. Take a look at the codex, it says nothing about being limited to 1 demo charge in their entry. It says three guardsmen must choose one of the following so you have three guardsmen with three choices (one each), one of which is a demo charge.

You're right, i've mis-red it in the past and ended up sticking to it. It says 'take A demolition charge'. My head seems to have mis-took for for a single demo-charge. Lol i've been missing out on the fun it would seem.

I don't quite get why you'd take demolitions on a vet squad with three meltaguns. What are you really going to need those meltabombs for that 3 BS4 meltaguns and a bunch of krak grenades can't handle?

Because that's really the point of demolitions. Spending 30 points for a single-shot demo charge is a pretty bad waste of points. Not quite as bad as spending 65 points for a single demo charge with marbo, but still not great.

I'd actually take demolitions as a means of increasing versatility, for example, on a 3x flamer vet squad that gets dropped off at the end of the game by means of vendettas or chimeras. They have the anti-infantry power of 3x flamers + shotguns + demo charge, and they have the anti-tank firepower of a demo charge + a ton of meltabombs.

 Deceiver wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:

 Deceiver wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
But I prefer Grenade Launchers

For what, paperweights?

I second, Grenade launchers are a no go

5pts cheaper and I don't have to get as close. S6 is enough for most things and the blast is handy for hordes. Especially when I have 17 at 1500pts plus all the backup tanks. Demo charges and Melta Bombs are for up close work.

True but the AP4 struggles against the targets I need the extra strength against. It's better to upgrade to the plasma gun for the rapid fire and better AP. Also, it doesn't really do that well against hordes. For those reasons I use the Plasma gun but this is an anti-tank unit.

I agree entirely, I think it comes down to how we use our armies. Tanks are for AP3/ AP2 IMO.

I see where this is going. I'm not taking the demo perk for the demo charge. That's a little bonus. I'm more curious about whether 30pts is a good investment for the almost guaranteed destruction of any vehicle they can reach. The main problem is the fact they can't charge from a chimera and they'll die without it. I'll leave the perk at home. Cheers guys.

 phantommaster wrote:

5pts cheaper and I don't have to get as close. S6 is enough for most things and the blast is handy for hordes.

Hate to burst your bubble chief; but you're wasting some awesomely useful Special Weapon slots by stacking up on Grenade Launchers.

Run the math; they're pretty damn bad.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't quite get why you'd take demolitions on a vet squad with three meltaguns. What are you really going to need those meltabombs for that 3 BS4 meltaguns and a bunch of krak grenades can't handle?

Because that's really the point of demolitions. Spending 30 points for a single-shot demo charge is a pretty bad waste of points. Not quite as bad as spending 65 points for a single demo charge with marbo, but still not great.

I'd actually take demolitions as a means of increasing versatility, for example, on a 3x flamer vet squad that gets dropped off at the end of the game by means of vendettas or chimeras. They have the anti-infantry power of 3x flamers + shotguns + demo charge, and they have the anti-tank firepower of a demo charge + a ton of meltabombs.

Yeah, but the difference with Marbo is that it's pretty much a guaranteed demo hit anywhere on the board, thus the cost.

As for the flamer vets, it just feels like a waste of their BS4. If you're just using them as an objective holder why bother with the demolitions at all? Might as well go Forward Sentries for the camo-cloaks and defensive grenades and sit them on an objective in cover. The thing when it comes to the demo charge is that if you plan on using it, you have to be ready to sacrifice the unit considering how close you have to get. You have to be ready for when that demo charge fails, or worse, blows up in your own face. Putting them on anything other than a melta-vet squad means they are a danger to themselves. I say melta-vet squad because you already have to get in close to use their special weapons anyway so why not throw the demo charge in with them?

In 5th I would have said take them. I use to run a harker squad with 3x meltas, shotguns & the demo's upgrade then outflank them to take out some nasty. But now you can't assault from reserve nor can you assault from a vehicle even it didn't move. So now that squad has been benched. I can't really find a way to use a squad with demo anymore without them getting creamed.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Yeah, but the difference with Marbo is that it's pretty much a guaranteed demo hit anywhere on the board, thus the cost.

Marbo isn't getting anywhere that vets piling out of a vendetta can't reach, and the blast of the vets is only 1 point of BS worse.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:As for the flamer vets, it just feels like a waste of their BS4.

So? What matters is what they can accomplish, not what their statline is, per se. Flamer vets with a demo charge and meltabombs can handle anything and, most importantly, they can dig enemy scoring units out of cover, and then score on the objectives themselves. Any other loadout for vets is going to be worse at accomplishing this job.

If you don't want to accomplish this job for whatever reason, then yeah, don't take demolitions.

 Ailaros wrote:

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Yeah, but the difference with Marbo is that it's pretty much a guaranteed demo hit anywhere on the board, thus the cost.

Marbo isn't getting anywhere that vets piling out of a vendetta can't reach, and the blast of the vets is only 1 point of BS worse.

I could think of a few places Marbo could go that Vendetta-vets couldn't: the third floor of a building, behind an enemy parking lot, or anywhere else the vendetta's footprint or vet squads footprint would be too large to disembark successfully. Also, Marbo is more expendable than the vets. You are more likely to throw him into dangerous spots to clear things out than a valuable troops choice.

That and for less than half the points you could do the same thing with a PCS full of flamers compared to the vets with flamers. Sure you lose out on the demo charge, but even you've stated that it is a questionable use of 30pts. With the PCS you lose out on bodies (and the versatility of melta bombs I guess), but gain another flamer (for a specifically focused unit), and have spent less points in the long run to do a similar amount of damage against the infantry dug in wherever. Depending on your target this may or may not be enough. If it's the latter, and you took vets, then there goes 100+pts down the drain.
I don't see the added benefit of the melta bombs here mixed with the flamers, especially when you can't assault out of transports now. You have this versatility, but is it versatility you will even get a chance to use? Once you get out, you're kind of a sitting duck and those meltabombs aren't helping any.

 Ailaros wrote:
Marbo isn't getting anywhere that vets piling out of a vendetta can't reach

Sure he is. You're talking about arriving anywhere on the table with no scatter vs. a risk deep strike with a high chance of scattering out of demo charge range or waiting until turn 3-4 to hover the Vendetta and disembark. Of course Marbo is going to be better at getting where he needs to be.


As for demolitions in general, it's sometimes worth it. It used to be awesome on squads attached to a Hades drill, but FW killed that option rather thoroughly. In Chimeras or Vendettas it can be decent, the demo charge adds a lot of firepower to a unit that is often at suicidally close range and needs to wipe out a target entirely, but it's a lot of points. I'll sometimes take them, but those 30 points will often be the first to be cut if it will let me fit in an entire additional unit.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:I could think of a few places Marbo could go that Vendetta-vets couldn't

But it's not a matter of "can you possibly think of a use for marbo?

Vets do WAY more damage, having access to special weapons, among others (like 9 more meltabombs), are WAY more survivable, having 9 more squadmates, and they score.

The point is is it worthwhile to spend 30 points for just a demo charge, and the answer is no, even in a unit that's way better than marbo here.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:That and for less than half the points you could do the same thing with a PCS full of flamers compared to the vets with flamers

You have half the durability, no demo charges, and no meltabombs. Put another way, you've cut the number of things you can kill way down, and you're less able to hold objectives. That's not even to mention the whole putting a whole platoon in reserves thing just so that you can put the PCS in a vendetta.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:I don't see the added benefit of the melta bombs here mixed with the flamers

Versatility.

You can spend 85 points, and be good for only clearing off infantry from objectives and then claiming them yourself, or you can spend 115 points to clear off infantry and take objectives and LIQUEFY any tank or monstrous creature that even a couple of surviving vets are left to deal with. The demo charge also makes them MUCH better against MEq and TEq as well.

Put another way, 30 points takes a squad that can do something, and turns it into a squad that can do anything.

You don't have to reserve a platoon to put a PCS in the Vendetta. Please stop misreading the FAQ.

 Ailaros wrote:
The point is is it worthwhile to spend 30 points for just a demo charge, and the answer is no, even in a unit that's way better than marbo here.

But you're missing the point here. Having melta guns is irrelevant when the question is "how good is this unit at delivering demo charges"? Those melta guns make it a good unit, but not necessarily a better demo charge delivery system. If you're instead asking whether you want to add a demo charge to the already-good unit the question is how well can it deliver the demo charge, and the answer is not all that well. If the melta unit is in a Chimera getting within 6" can be difficult, and if it's in a Vendetta it won't arrive until relatively late in the game and requires hovering the Vendetta, something you may not want to do yet.

Marbo, on the other hand, costs more points for the same demo charge, but is MUCH better at getting the demo charge to its target successfully.

He's not, and I don't see the point in bothering with grenadiers if you're already taking meltaguns. It's an upgrade for a different squad loadout.

Corollax wrote:You don't have to reserve a platoon to put a PCS in the Vendetta. Please stop misreading the FAQ.

Check out page 96 of your codex. The entire infantry platoon counts as a single troops choice when deploying. That means that they all need to go into reserves, or they all need to start on the table.

The FAQ just updates when you roll to come on the board with regards to a non-dedicated transport. It doesn't change the pertinent rule in the codex. It's an addendum, not a superceder.

 Ailaros wrote:
Check out page 96 of your codex.

Oh FFS. READ THE ERRATA.

Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to: “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a
single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be
deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking
roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in
reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are
instead rolled for separately.”

The limit of in place of a single unit ONLY happens in missions which limit the number of units that can be deployed. Since there are none of those missions in the main rulebook this limit would only apply in a special scenario with non-standard deployment rules.

It's an addendum, not a superceder.

No, it explicitly says "CHANGE TO". The text as-printed in the codex is gone, so please stop quoting it and misleading people who might read your comments and think that you know what you're talking about.

 Ailaros wrote:

WhiteWolf01 wrote:I could think of a few places Marbo could go that Vendetta-vets couldn't

But it's not a matter of "can you possibly think of a use for marbo?

Vets do WAY more damage, having access to special weapons, among others (like 9 more meltabombs), are WAY more survivable, having 9 more squadmates, and they score.

The point is is it worthwhile to spend 30 points for just a demo charge, and the answer is no, even in a unit that's way better than marbo here.

Vets also cost more, iirc