Mantic Games - Sci-fi News & Rumors: Sci-Fi Zombies released.

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**Bolognesus**

Hmm, I seem to remember having heard of plenty of KS backers getting replacements. I also have seen them offer refunds here and there, if I'm not mistaken. Have you emailed stewart gibbs directly? If not, I suggest doing so. Feel free to PM me for the email adress if you don't have it already.

**Souleater**

I'm currently pledged at $90 for Deadzone. Pictures like the above do not fill me with confidence :(

**Bolognesus**

@Souleater
What pictures are you referring to, specifically?

**RiTides**

Zweischneid wrote:
Mantic Games is putting some of their new-found digital-sculpting skillz to use for DreadBall!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/dreadball-the-futuristic-sports-game/posts/489280

Quoting this sweet image onto the new page so it doesn't get lost / missed.

**Agent_Tremolo**

Goodness gracious.

I'm not too sold on sports games so I've been carefully skipping Dreadball so far, but that mini looks simply awesome. Wonder if I can strap a gattling gun there somehow...

**Compel**

That'll probably come in the Warpath kickstarter, Tremolo.

Maybe even the last days of Deadzone if we're lucky?

**Souleater**

Bolognesus wrote:
@Souleater
What pictures are you referring to, specifically?

The ones on pg10 of this thread. I don't mind cleaning up the mould lines but the sharpness of the sculpting is pretty poor, IMO.

**PsychoticStorm**

Souleater wrote:
Bolognesus wrote:
@Souleater
What pictures are you referring to, specifically?

The ones on pg10 of this thread. I don't mind cleaning up the mould lines but the sharpness of the sculpting is pretty poor, IMO.

I have the same models and seem to have no issue, so? localized problem?

**judgedoug**

nkelsch wrote:

Oh Really? I asked for replacements and refunds, and was told their website email form often doesn't function. I want a refund for season 3 to cut my losses if that is a possibility.

So this 'offer to replace them' I have yet to find out how to get this accomplished as they do not respond to their emails

this is after emailing them using the direct email address you were provided with?

**Bolognesus**

Hmm, I see what you mean. I had that same apprehension with WM/H Plastics, then with restic, then again with SW plastic - I've since learned that that stuff photographs like gak and you only see how sharp much of the detail actually is once the primer goes on. My helder figure looked pretty much the same but now the primer is on, I'm quite sure it's actually quite a sharply detailed model.
What *is* the case, however (and this goes mostly for the girls and the judwan, due to the nature of the models) is that the detail is more subtle than you're used to from GW models. it's much more like CB stuff in that regard - though a lot more defined and easier to paint than Wyrd plastics seem to be (which are good on their own too, just something to be really careful with).

If you're used to slapping on the paint by the millilitre, you're in for a tough time with these. if you paint with a bit of care, you shouldn't have any issues. Really, all the PVCish plastic models (which are all the rage nowadays) are like that; they look like *crap* until you get some paint on them at which point they really shine.
Detail somewhat to the side of the mould pull direction is actually a lot sharper on these kinds of models I've heard, and it mirrors my experiences. Sorry, I've got a thesis deadline coming up so no time to document this with 20 zillion pics but really, you're fine. don't worry

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PsychoticStorm wrote:
Souleater wrote:
Bolognesus wrote:
@Souleater
What pictures are you referring to, specifically?

The ones on pg10 of this thread. I don't mind cleaning up the mould lines but the sharpness of the sculpting is pretty poor, IMO.

I have the same models and seem to have no issue, so? localized problem?

To be fair the mold lines on my s2 stuff are actually worse than that; it doesn't seem to be more work to clear them off than smaller lines would be though. just a lot worse-looking if you don't

**PsychoticStorm**

Sad to hear that, my only "excessive" mold-line is on orky's head, I remember one or two models need some cleaning, but on one location and not to that extend.

**Compel**

I'll try to back that up and bring me into positive land again.

Using a similar colour scheme on a Dreadball model as a 40k one. The Dreadball model took 3 hours all told. 40k was closer to 15.
However Dreadball models don't like drybrushing And spraypaint misbehaving can really mess then up, but that's more my fault. See my modelling blog for details.

**BobtheInquisitor**

That Dreadball mech needs a knife.

@nkelsch: I got a reply from Stewart very quickly when I contacted him through the Deadzone KS's "ask a question" button (2 days, I think). That seems to be where his attention lies. My email to him went unanswered for well over a week. Maybe you can pledge a dollar, ask your question and unpledge when he answers?

**CptJake**

Pretty much every mech needs a knife when you put it that way.

**Azazelx**

Zweischneid wrote:

I dunno. I see these guys both on Dakka in the Mantic threads and on the Mantic forums. I am not sure what exactly it is about Mantic that attracts these kind of zealots that think criticism is something bad and blind obedience (and blind lashing out at anyone with even the slightest inkling of critical thinking) is something good. But yeah, Mantic has some truly terrible fanatic-fans that seriously hurt the broader appeal of their games in this day and age of internet-vibes.

I hardly even read the Deadzone thread on Dakka anymore. While I think the game looks ace, the thread is so thoroughly orchestrated, artificially hyped and cleansed of all "natural" discussion, it can hardly be called a forum-discussion at all anymore at this point.

A little bit hyperbolic there, mate. I agree that fanatics can hurt the broader discussion, and sometimes I don't find the moderation to be reasonable (I had a post removed in the first days because my talk of "fake stretch goals" apparently hurt SS's feelings - or maybe because I replied when he rode in to attack a post I hadn't made "to" him after a mod asked us to stop - but before I saw the mod post). But I'd argue that GW also seems to have a lot of white knights in threads discussing their product, and there's that guy who apparently wants to defend all game companies, but I'm still posting in the DreadZone thread, and I'm still happily pointing out what I think is good, bad and otherwise.

Please read the multiple posts where I am in fact heavily critical of Mantic before doing so though. Hell, there's a post a few up from this one where I'm agreeing with nkeslch.

Agreed. Credit where it's due, and you've been critical of the trolls and initial Orks rather than slavering fanboi. I think the difference with those is that you're willing to cut Mantic much more slack than others because you're such a self-described fan. Buying new figures in order to attempt to rebuild the trolls, etc is really not something any of us should need to do, and not really something that would come to mind for most of us when there's an opportunity to swap them, put them in a box forever, or a rubbish bin within throwing range.. ,

**Compel**

A great response from mantic on that thread. I really am impressed.

JamesMHewitt wrote wrote:Hi guys! James here. I'm afraid the Deadzone Kickstarter (and a dozen other things!) have meant that I haven't been able to properly engage with the forums yet. Hopefully in June that will change! (Also I will be able to get sleep, I've been told. Precious sleep...)

I think there's a lot of debate here from a lot of people who all want more or less the same thing. Let's see if can step in and mediate a bit before people start buying plane tickets and starting fist-fights!

No game is perfect. No matter how finely you balance a game, if it gets played enough it will tip in one direction or another, or people will find loopholes to exploit, or they'll figure out every strategy and discover an unbeatable strategy for winning. That's why games get patched, re-released, updated and so on. Even chess!

It's impossible for a designer to predict how every single player will play a game, which means there's always room for improvement based on feedback. This is why playtesting is so essential. The more people play a game, the more things come up that otherwise wouldn't have. We playtested DreadBall like crazy, and I think that's why it's received such high praise for its rules. I think it's an awesome game (I'm biased, of course ), but do I think it's perfect? No! Is that a bad thing? Not at all!

Without constant feedback from players - preferably well-structured constructive feedback, but even the occasional bout of formless enraged shouting from time to time - a game can't grow. That's why Jake maintains the FAQ on his blog. It lets him see what people think of the game, which is a great first step. The more feedback he gets the more he can see patterns and the more easily he can sort the wheat from the chaff.

Saying that you think a rule needs to change isn't the same as attacking the designer, and I think we need to be careful, as a community, not to assume that the two are the same. Yes, it's important to grow the DreadBall community, and positivity is a great way of doing that, but shutting down criticisms can be more damaging than helpful.

So what do we do?

Here's what I'd say. When someone says that they think a rule is broken, or something needs to change, or XYZ, we should thank them for their opinion, then question it further. Why do they think that? What evidence is it based on? This shouldn't be an interrogation, just a chance to gather information. If they're saying "Marauders are broken!" after playing one game and losing to them, it's probably a case of encouraging them to try again - maybe switching sides - and see if they still feel the same. If, however, they've played a dozen games and the same issue has cropped up in eight of them... they might well have a point. Ask them what they'd do to fix it, and point them towards Jake's blog where they can explain what they think is wrong, why they think that, and what they'd do to overcome it. If you disagree with them, fair enough. You're allowed your opinion! Say what you'd do differently, but please don't tell someone there's no issue if they've experienced it on multiple occasions. At the end of the day, Jake gets to make that call.

If we do this, we can keep growing DreadBall into something increasingly awesome.

How about we give it a try?

Thanks for reading

**MajorTom11**

Zweischneid wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:

If you want to complain about me personally, feel free to do so. I don't like sideways jabs.

Was thinking more about Black Nexus actually. And this JS-Digby guy. Etc.. . Believe it or not, I consider you - relatively - as one of the saner posters Squig, even though you're far from impartial. 0

Hell, sometimes I even wonder what Mantic pays a certain Primarch-named MOD. If Dakka-mods would clamp down on GW-criticism like he does on Mantic-criticism, Dakkadakka itself would probably cease to exist.

Is it hard to see the keyboard past your tin-foil hat lol?

Seriously though, this idea that Mods are paid by companies is absolutely ridiculous... I wish that weren't the case though I would love to be on the take lol! Free $ is always welcome

**Kroothawk**

Bolognesus wrote:
Hmm, I seem to remember having heard of plenty of KS backers getting replacements.

According to your judgment, would you say that there were a lot of complains and a lot of justified returns in this kickstarter? If yes, what would be the reason for this?

BTW, if Dakka wouldn't allow Mantic critical posts, my post count would be 10% smaller

**overtyrant**

Great post from James there. The Dreadball community is still young and growing fast. I hear of stories of more and more people playing the game (its not even a year old!), I myself have giving several demos at my club and I believe Mantic have sold over twice as much core sets then from the KS so they must be doing something right. So lets not throw hisses at each other (all the different forums) and scare new people away, we have a great game here and its going to be great watching it grow!

**Bolognesus**

Kroothawk wrote:
Bolognesus wrote:
Hmm, I seem to remember having heard of plenty of KS backers getting replacements.

According to your judgment, would you say that there were a lot of complains and a lot of justified returns in this kickstarter? If yes, what would be the reason for this?

BTW, if Dakka wouldn't allow Mantic critical posts, my post count would be 10% smaller

I think, going by what I've seen, there were actually relatively few complaints once people had stuff in their hands.
To be honest though, I've been crazy busy with exams and thesis during both delivery periods so far, so I haven't done an expansive analysis exactly

I believe mantic replaced a lot of models with ill-fitting tabs and unacceptable mold lines, but that was it mostly. Now in my (rather big: completionist with all upgrades!) season two shipment I've been hit with both hose issues. To be honest though, aside from a few min here and there fixing tabs the cleanup doesn't take all that much longer; I don't feel as if it's complaint-worthy. I'll be mailing about a mispack and an MVP damaged in shipment once i've checked and built everyhing, but I'm not exactly all that disappointed tbh.
So basically I've got one of the 'bad' shipments for this wave and even then it's not all that bad; I think the relatively few complaints have something to do with this: most experienced modelers with a decent craft knife won't blink at fixing any of this, so aside from mispacks and shipping damage, I feel that relatively few replacements (should) have been issued.
Mantic is always a bit polarizing; this does mean a rather small group will make a LOT of noise in the way of complaints, even for a wargaming matter. You'll see 95% of the harsh criticism comes from a very, very small group.
Of course on the other hand there's folks like SS and me who would cut them a rather big it of slack at times, so I won't say it doesn't somewhat balance out

On balance though, I think you'll find most backers were really quite satisfied with dreadball so far.

**Zweischneid**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Is it hard to see the keyboard past your tin-foil hat lol?

Seriously though, this idea that Mods are paid by companies is absolutely ridiculous... I wish that weren't the case though I would love to be on the take lol! Free $ is always welcome

Yes. I know that forum Mods are not REALLY paid by game companies.

But that, if anything, only makes it even more in-explicable why there are so vastly divergent standards in moderating criticism directed at Games Workshop and criticism directed at other miniature gaming company.

**PsychoticStorm**

on other news on the Deadzone comments mantic admitted tighting up the quality control in production and visiting the factory for that reason.

Not bad news.

**Compel**

You do have to wonder though, was that before or after the Robot teams were made?

**PsychoticStorm**

They will go, so after.

I am assuming here but, the season 1 had issues because the moulds were used too fast to make the deadline, mantic identified the issue and asked for moulds to be done in normal speed for season 2, the problems that showed up probably means that at some point the factory started again the speed production, somebody in this thread speculated because they got another more important order, so they will go over there to make sure production runs smoother.

Again this is speculation from things I read.

**RiTides**

Z- tons of Mantic criticism in this and the KoW thread the last few pages I've seen, with zero mod intervention. It's not always a conspiracy

**Sining**

I've emailed Stewart on Monday regarding a missing figure from my S2 shipment, got a reply on Wed. Maybe nklesch shouldn't write his emails in the same tone as he writes his forum posts.

**Azazelx**

That could well be it. I emailed Stewart at the same time as I sent my first post about the trolls, and got a reply within a day that the figure would be sent out immediately. Got it Friday.

**streetsamurai**

wow, the flash and mold lines on these models are unnaceptable. Might cancel my 300$ deadzone pledge after seeing this, especially since it seem quite an odyssey to get replacement.

**nkelsch**

Sining wrote:
I've emailed Stewart on Monday regarding a missing figure from my S2 shipment, got a reply on Wed. Maybe nklesch shouldn't write his emails in the same tone as he writes his forum posts.

I will be glad to post the content of my multiple emails to mantic and Stewart included. I just sent him yet another email with an added bit complaining about the hoops needed to jump through for customer service... I can't believe so many people think it is "OK" to be ignored through the webpage contact us form and think it is 'ok' that you should be forced to pledge the new kickstarter to access the 'ask a question' button or email secret email addresses not posted on the website.

If GW functioned that way, people would have an aneurysm complaining about how terrible the customer service is.

I also think the rationalization is getting worse and worse by the bucket brigade. "Oh, Mantic models look terrible by photos when every other mini ever made can look fine in photos." "Mantic models have shallower detail which require primer to look good." "Oh when you paint detail and don't use a lot of paint, they look great, they are for advanced painters." "Oh you should expect heavy flash and mold lines, experienced modelers should have no issues and just accept it." Really? So the bad models are the fault of cameras and lack of skills of the customers now? And I should pledge Deadzone in order to get my answer? Pay further into the Ponzi scheme?

Regardless, I am a paying customer who deserves a response and have valid issues with my product.

**RiTides**

Did he respond to you, nkelsch?