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Nice hard plasticenforcers could get me back to playing sci fi again, but I have no interest in restic.

 Yonan wrote:
In addition to seeing the production minis, Mantic should really setup a big board full of terrain ASAP, 10-20 battlezones worth, Even unpainted, or with a ghetto basecoat + drybrush it would still look epic. The little teaser vid seriously whet my appetite for that stuff again ; p

Thinking the terrain would go beautifully as AvP colonial marine / their corporate overlords pre fab stuff since it's a very similar theme to mantic corporations iirc.

I think Mantic's might be OVER utilizing the "What's hot now" strategy. They understand miniature projects aren't gonna keep doing as well as they have been on KS. You see the same names in 90% of the projects. Mantic has had good success using the system and established themselves as one of the better "bang for your buck" companies, enticing people to jump in for all the "freebies" (Hooray ). But this has already warn many of us down, and projects have been coming in and we are getting less interested in the new Project (make no mistake, the thing that hurt Bones II the most from passing Bones I was people realized how many minis they had from the first they didn't know if they were ever gonna use). Also as Mantic is a small company, you can tell most of them bump, shift, and slide to fill mulitiple roles (Customer Service guys assist in Warehouse, Sculptors assist with painting projects etc. Those things might not be happening specifically but you get it). They are stretching themselves a little thin to get all these projects in whilse they can.

I really think they need to take a bit of a breather after Mars Attacks (I suppose maybe the Warpath KS if the planning is already underway). Jake could afford sometime to reassess and address the rules issues with his current projects. Dreadball and KoW could use a look at which models they could afford to redo in the next couple of years (Basic Veer-myn team might be a start) and a general assessment of the company should be made from the inside of which games are working and which aren't and if there is anything they can do about it. A look at if they even need to do Kickstaters anymore to expand/reboot/reinvigorate/start-up new games and projects should be made. Giving folks close to $500 worth of stuff for $150 is awesome for each of us, but how many would spend $150 on $150 worth of stuff anyway, or often even up to the entire $500 (with less potential of flooding the market with 2nd hand sales on ebay hurting brick and mortar initial sales)? Folks were crying that they needed to be allowed to order everything off the 2nd survey so they could see it first, but how much is that gonna hurt their penetration into the market post KS since they are getting from the company AFTER it has hit store shelves at rock bottom prices? Not to mention all the piggy backing that is going to happen from friends as opposed to buying it from the store since they know they can wait after getting the minimum ( assuming you are just giving them/loaning them your stuff).

In general, it is a bad sign if the company can't break away from kickstarter (eventually, I understand their strategy right now even more then I'm letting on) because either we don't like their stuff enough to buy it for full price so expect it damn near at cost, they never get the market penetration they are looking for because anyone that wanted it got it off the KS, or because they overlap their projects so much, they never get the revenue they need to sustain everything and we stop buying the existing projects we enjoy since we got burned on a later KS.

So yeah, it would be nice for them to get to the point to where they could dedicate a little more promotional time to a particular project, instead of just pushing the next project on everyone through the connections they made through the previous projects. But Ronnie might have a 5-year plan on this, or he might be flying by the seat of his pants.

Earth Dragon wrote:


I think Mantic's might be OVER utilizing the "What's hot now" strategy. They understand miniature projects aren't gonna keep doing as well as they have been on KS. You see the same names in 90% of the projects. Mantic has had good success using the system and established themselves as one of the better "bang for your buck" companies, enticing people to jump in for all the "freebies" (Hooray ). But this has already warn many of us down, and projects have been coming in and we are getting less interested in the new Project (make no mistake, the thing that hurt Bones II the most from passing Bones I was people realized how many minis they had from the first they didn't know if they were ever gonna use).

I would disagree, the thing that held back Bones 2 was lack of focus, "B-team" sculpts and screwing over the international backers, not a lack of interest from the fans.

As far as I know all of the mantic kickstarters have been more successful then the previous.

I may have overstated "the most". But it surely impacted it in the end. If folks didn't have other projects on order, they would have been more enticed to jump on in (or go in for Core or Expansion 1 or whatever). This is going off of what many were saying, so I'm not just pulling this out of the air. And of course what you are saying is what impacted it the most of yourself. But that is also a good example how expectations from KS compaigns is getting to a level where they are hard to reach. (Obviously they still did well. You don't generate over 3 mil and call that a failure, but people expected more on multiple levels).


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and Mars Attacks does not look like it will defeat Deadzone. KS hasn't hiit it's "peak" but it is getting close to capacity as far as miniature games go and it with eventually die down a bit.

Earth Dragon wrote:
In general, it is a bad sign if the company can't break away from kickstarter

I think you're significantly underestimating the working capital cycle benefits that Kickstarting offers even to companies that don't need to use Kickstarter.

Forget capital cycle benefits, the customer excitement generated early, the way it makes customers feel invested in that product line - the way KS creates a market share before a single unit has been produced is a much greater benefit to the mid-sized companies you mean IMO.

 judgedoug wrote:
I know nobody likes to have their opinion disagreed with, but...

the Veer-myn are pretty awesome. This image alone makes me want to own them

I have the Veer-myn, I like the sculpts. The material leaves a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, many of Mantic's products have one problem or another. You have some with bad sculpts. Others are made from bad materials.

This being said, I really like Mantic. They make some really great games, at lower prices than many other companies. I am hoping that they begin to fire on all cylinders. From my perspective they are moving in the right direction. Their newest restic formula seems to be an improvement over older ones. They are pushing forward with hard plastic production again.

I anxiously await the release of Deadzone.

 carlos13th wrote:
Seriously impressed with the terrain. I thought you would be able to assemble glue in place then you are done but it seems like its genuinely modular which is great.

Stuff like this becomes a lot less modular once you start painting it, though. I imagine that if I get a pile of this scenery, it'll end up and assembled into permanent structures since I'll want to paint it...


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 judgedoug wrote:
I know nobody likes to have their opinion disagreed with, but...

the Veer-myn are pretty awesome. This image alone makes me want to own them


I really haven't done anything at all with the small number of them that came with Pandora, but that image makes me want to see if I can replace the Mantic heads with well-sculpted, proper plastic skaven heads and see what kind of a difference that makes.

...but first I need to finish these bloody Ogres.

 Azazelx wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Seriously impressed with the terrain. I thought you would be able to assemble glue in place then you are done but it seems like its genuinely modular which is great.

Stuff like this becomes a lot less modular once you start painting it, though. I imagine that if I get a pile of this scenery, it'll end up and assembled into permanent structures since I'll want to paint it...

This is the first thing I want reviewed and why I couldn't accept them. Modular terrain is awesome... when it is cast in toy-like plastic and pre-painted or papercraft like the old necromunda stuff. If I put acrylic paint on it, (like other modular terrain) it can't be reconfigured without damaging the paintjob and ruining the terrain. So It becomes static terrain. Which is fine, if it looks good. There is better stuff for modular which will be permanent terrain.

I really need to see how legitimate this stuff can be as fully painted models which can be assembled and disassembled with the clips and all and how a normal paintjob will hold up to that. Else it simply becomes static terrain, (which is potentially fine and not a dealbreaker, but lessens the amount needed to a few pieces.)

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I like the trolls. Lol. Screw you haters.

Buy My Trolls!

Then we both win!

I'll experiment with it, but certain things I plan on having permanent, like the top of a tower, and maybe some catwalks. I wouldn't want to glue where the ladder is or the supports determining how high it is though. From what I'm seeing, this shouldn't cause any problems.

Doesn't there appear to be longer "corner" clips that go over everything as well? So even if there was a little bit of wear you may be able to cover it up.

Exciting for sure.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:


I think Mantic's might be OVER utilizing the "What's hot now" strategy. They understand miniature projects aren't gonna keep doing as well as they have been on KS. You see the same names in 90% of the projects. Mantic has had good success using the system and established themselves as one of the better "bang for your buck" companies, enticing people to jump in for all the "freebies" (Hooray ). But this has already warn many of us down, and projects have been coming in and we are getting less interested in the new Project (make no mistake, the thing that hurt Bones II the most from passing Bones I was people realized how many minis they had from the first they didn't know if they were ever gonna use).

I would disagree, the thing that held back Bones 2 was lack of focus, "B-team" sculpts and screwing over the international backers, not a lack of interest from the fans.

As far as I know all of the mantic kickstarters have been more successful then the previous.

I think you're both right - along with Bones 2 being so close (too close?) on the heels of Bones 1 fulfilment. There are a lot of factors in a campaign that size, after all...

I think you could always get away with making stackable buildings like they have designed for Infinity (couple of companies, forget names). Assemble and glue tiles together to make sections and combine them in different combinations etc. I know I know, you can buy that kind of thing already but still.

I plan to potentially dip/brush on minwax and matte seal mine to make then fairly durable. Will have to test it and see if I can get the clips to work with the paint+sealants... but I'm hoping to work something out.

I will probably glue some of my 14 battle zones into pemanent combindable structures for use as bases to build deadzone paintball arenas from, but I want a set that's very durable and modular that I can port around and use for demos.

Well I intend to glue together my landing pad battlezone and I think il make a few sub assembles such as towers and walkways. To be honest its the customization of the scenery thats the coolest thing imho rather than being able to take it apart after each game.

Earth Dragon wrote:
And of course what you are saying is what impacted it the most of yourself.

I could say the same to you

 Azazelx wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Seriously impressed with the terrain. I thought you would be able to assemble glue in place then you are done but it seems like its genuinely modular which is great.

Stuff like this becomes a lot less modular once you start painting it, though. I imagine that if I get a pile of this scenery, it'll end up and assembled into permanent structures since I'll want to paint it...

Thats a very good point. Maybe a varnish and a seal will protect it enough that it can survive being taken apart without to much damage to the paint job. Time will tell i suppose.

If not ill just pretend its battleworn.

I may buy Veer-myn and rename them Marauders those sculpts are awesome

Veer-myn will have their chance.

Just you wait.......


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 ulgurstasta wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
And of course what you are saying is what impacted it the most of yourself.

I could say the same to you

You could, but I pledged

I still hope to see Veermyn get their own future expansion... Deadzone: Infestation

Theoretically, the only damage the terrain should suffer would be in the areas under the connectors. Even some solid varnish there might not be enough to protect the paint job from the force it looks like you'll need to use. That said - the connectors will cover these up again, and if for some reason you don't use a connector there, Mantic are providing a bunch of decorations to clip in to cover them up again. The outer surface of the connectors won't be damaged so the paint should stay in tact there.

I can't see the modularity causing a noticeable level of damage to the paint job.

 Azazelx wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I like the trolls. Lol. Screw you haters.

Buy My Trolls!

Then we both win!

Haha. I have 12 already.

 judgedoug wrote:
I know nobody likes to have their opinion disagreed with, but...

the Veer-myn are pretty awesome. This image alone makes me want to own them

Well, the Veermyn seem to be pretty polarizing. I have the Dreadball team, and I just don't see the diamond in their rough, but then again, I am one of the few who likes their elves, so I can sympathize. The heads were also a lot more shocking back in the days when Mantic was known as the "true-scale plastics" fantasy miniature company.

Also, as much as I and you and all of Dakka dislike the Basileans, they are selling extraordinarily well and the rest of the internet seems to like them (going by the positivity on other sites), so shrug.

Could you please post a link to this information? I just have a hard time believing that they aren't just talking about the paladins and elohi. I suppose people are buying the Basileans based on the quality of their rules and fluff, but I simply cannot imagine people can be uniformly positive about minis that have two distinct problems just gluing their damn monkey arms on. (I'm talking about the shoulder strap overhang and the lumpy, rounded attachment point that needs to be cut or filed before gluing.) And keep in mind that I actually traded for more Men at Arms. (Mostly because I saw their potential for a compulsive converter with a large bitz box. I doubt most gamers or modellers or people would be willing to spend so much time just to get "good enough" results.)

Yeah, the trolls are crap. (wait i thought i was a mantic fanboi)

Usually, I would be on that side, too. I have full armies of elves, dwarfs, undead, orcs, Men at Arms/Elohi, and Forgefathers. I pledged fairly big for KoW and Dreadball, and only lowered my DZ pledge after the KoW fiasco. But I'm sick of defending them. No, I'm sick of HAVING to defend them. Mantic has made so many mistakes again and again that it is really frustrating beyond reason. I want them to succeed. I want them to produce wonderful models that everyone will love and to have the best reputation around. However, Mantic doesn't seem to want any of that, based on their method of interacting with the KS pledgers, i.e. the early adopters and their most enthusiastic customers.



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I still have a troll that needs a home. And an entire Dreadball Veermyn team. Somebody please think of the Veermyn.


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 dragqueeninspace wrote:
Nothing wrong with the cat horses, they look awesome same with the Werewolves.


I don't mind the trolls tbh.Funny proportions are hardly a new thing see almost everything GW and PP ever released.

Humans however should be in proportion since everyone knows what a human should look like riders of said cathorses.shouyld have been stopped and changed.

The cat-horses have really put off a lot of backers because they look awkward and, more importantly, are not the monstrous cavalry that backers pledged for.

The werewolves were the kit that actually got me to pledge. The concept art looked great--a bit hulking and muscular, but not off-puttingly so. The final sculpts were only loosely based on the art, by an artist who didn't understand what made the sketch work. First of all, the heads are too small and docile looking. The torsos are hypermasculine V's, like Johnny Bravo on steroids, which is not a trait one expects to see in werewolves. (Werewolves should be somewhere between a human and a wolf in shape, not Mighty Mouse.) Their forearms are thicker than their thighs at some points. The sculpting of fur was sparse enough to give the wolves the appearance of having "landing strips", and the nipples, although shrunken, were still comically placed and exaggerated. The poses were sillier than intimidating, although I suppose a skilled converter could fix that. Frankly, the werewolves were a disappointment.

Even the nuns were getting a lot of positives on Beasts of War this week.

As for the terrain, it seems to me that assembling all the terrain before every game might be unnecesarily time consuming, and making a selection of ground floors and a few complete buildings that you can then reconfigure as you want is the "sweet spot" for usage.

Indeed. As someone who owns a crate's worth of Necromunda, Platformer, Hexagon and Syberclicks I can attest that there is no way you'll want to put it all together and break it down again every time you play.

I will probably leave 1-2 battle zones in pieces for my travel set, the rest will be assembled into parts and left. If stability demands it, certain structures will be glued as necessary.

Looking forward to having too much to do, its a good problem.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Well, the Veermyn seem to be pretty polarizing. I have the Dreadball team, and I just don't see the diamond in their rough, but then again, I am one of the few who likes their elves, so I can sympathize. The heads were also a lot more shocking back in the days when Mantic was known as the "true-scale plastics" fantasy miniature company.

I had almost no interest in them until people started complaining, and then I looked them up, and I really like them! Azazelx mentioned he doesn't think the heads are rat-like enough, but I don't mind... they look like rag tag mutant rat guys with guns. That works for me. *If anyone has Warpath Veermyn they don't want and are willing to sell them, message me*

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Could you please post a link to this information? I just have a hard time believing that they aren't just talking about the paladins and elohi. I suppose people are buying the Basileans based on the quality of their rules and fluff, but I simply cannot imagine people can be uniformly positive about minis that have two distinct problems just gluing their damn monkey arms on.

Dude, I know. But for instance, watching the KoW week on BoW, I saw these comments http://www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/kings-war-week-basilean-faction-breakdown/#comments
and it blew my mind. Sure I think the Elohi and Paladins are cool but there's tons of praise for the battle nuns. I have no idea.
"Those are some good looking models. This faction looks really interesting."
"the sisterhood deffo look cool, i dunno, there’s something about scary battle nuns"
"I do like those minis, not sure about the colour scheme the studio ones are painted, but they do look good."
"The detail on them looks great and even the simpler “rank and file” troops like the Sisterhood look good too."
"I love the look of the models"
"Panther riders? Ok that’s fairly cool."
"Really love the look of this army. I’m going to take the plunge into KoW"
"Big cats and angels look awesome"
(all just from the first page of comments...)

As for sales, this is purely anecdotal on my part. Every day I have a morning routine where I check frpgames.com's new clearance items, see the MiniatureMarket deal of the day, and check Warstore's bargain basement. So I'll see each website's "new releases", so I watched as the Basileans arrived in frpgames and thewarstore and saw that most were sold out within a few days (the AM hours at work are pretty boring so I tend to catch up a lot on Dakka and whatnot during this period). Frpgames just got a restock (as they are the retail arm of a distributor) but Warstore is now completely sold out. MiniMarket is always behind so has a few units in stock. So entirely anecdotal but the Warstore is straight up sold out of everything after they had everything in stock.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Usually, I would be on that side, too. I have full armies of elves, dwarfs, undead, orcs, Men at Arms/Elohi, and Forgefathers. I pledged fairly big for KoW and Dreadball, and only lowered my DZ pledge after the KoW fiasco. But I'm sick of defending them. No, I'm sick of HAVING to defend them. Mantic has made so many mistakes again and again that it is really frustrating beyond reason. I want them to succeed. I want them to produce wonderful models that everyone will love and to have the best reputation around. However, Mantic doesn't seem to want any of that, based on their method of interacting with the KS pledgers, i.e. the early adopters and their most enthusiastic customers.

I literally knew almost nothing about MAntic for years, occasionally seeing reference to them or a few models here and there. It was the KoW KS that got me into them. At first I did't like the Elves either but once I got my hand on them I fell in love (they really are intricate beautiful sculpts). I'm not beholden to Mantic but I do like most of the crap they do so I'd very much like them to succeed too. I feel most of the problems can be traced to "too much growth, too fast". I really have a feeling over the next year they'll be able to settle in and catch their breath. Meanwhile, I'll still be playing Kings of War (and hopefully Deadzone if my group likes it) I don't feel a need to defend Mantic, as I obviously don't like a lot of stuff they do either - but I don't feel the need to go out of the way to attack them (ala Kroot), or make random-ass speculations based on half-baked theories and some evil intent.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
Indeed. As someone who owns a crate's worth of Necromunda, Platformer, Hexagon and Syberclicks I can attest that there is no way you'll want to put it all together and break it down again every time you play.

Yeah, same here - and I just added 10 of Proxie Models' plastic modular buildings to my pile, too. With Deadzone coming soon I will probably just wind up gluing it together.

With the terrain I'm thinking of keeping separate levels as separate assemblies to make it easy to transport.

I'll be going to the open day and picking up my DZ pledge so there will be some nice production pics of all the deadzone stuff for you guys on Dec 1st.

Deadzone pre-order is go, everyone. All four teams and several mercs in a £100 deal.

Link:

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/pre-order/deadzone.html

That's the first time they've shown the counters. So a Battlezone is £25 versus $25 in the KS good saving then. EDIT ah the £25 includes an accessory sprue which the KS Battlezone didn't so it's £25 versus $30 (£19) still £6 is £6 saved.

Ah so those rifle Enforcers pictures are the Warpath ones that Ronnie talked about. So the KS and retail backers will get those until early next year when we get the hard plastic frame for free?