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i use 2 Las sponson Acannon preds in my chaos force i find them very durable ifi have the points ill throw a vindicator in

 michaelcycle wrote:
I could care less about being able to shoot longer before dying.

How much less could you care?


In general, I have to say I like 6th ed vehicle rules more than those of the 5th. Yes, it was a nerf to the tanks, but that's okay. However, one thing I dislike is how easy vehicles are to kill in close combat, that just doesn't seem right. Bunch of guys with grenades shouldn't be able to blow up a main battle tank just like that.

 Crimson wrote:

 michaelcycle wrote:
I could care less about being able to shoot longer before dying.

How much less could you care?

LOL! Man I only just manage to control myself every time I see that awful phrase, thanks for making me chuckle.

If you don't care about how long you're shooting and thus contributing what exactly do you want from you're vehicles? Sit there looking pretty while they're stun locked each turn?

Something I've noticed in play is that my opponents who are having the worst luck with tanks are the ones trying to use transports as MBT. I think it's been skewing opinions, kind of a "my auto-pwn button doesn't work anymore? Then it purely sucks because it isn't auto-pwn!"

Rhinos are only dead if they are your only armor. Drop pods, to me, force early game commitments and I can't adjust to enemy movements as well.

Thinking to my battles against tanks in 6th Edition, the common issue my opposition seems to have is I hit the tanks early and hit them hard with my Rail-guns and missile pods at the start then later deep strike fusion blasters in close.

If I were playing Imperium we could say Lasguns and Krak missiles at range with dropped in Meltas and Multimeltas and have a similar sort of impact.

Now while my opponents still play all the lovely metal boxes that the Imperium uses, they also tend to put expensive stuff in their lists. Things like deathstar units, flyers, land raiders and nemesis deathknights. The result is that even early on in the game, I have a surplus of tank killing weapons and rip apart the LRs, Predators and Vindicators very quickly leaving only AV 11 to face a mass of ST 7, 8 and 10. The results are rarely pretty for them and I have a footslogging enemy to deal with.

So what are the counters to this, aside from abandoning tanks altogether.

1) Lots of big LOS blocking terrain. Hide those tanks from view as long as possible before you are ready to use them.

2) Take out the tank killers. I admit broadsides are tough to kill now that you can't arrive from reserves and assault in the same turn, but Devastators and Longfangs go down just as easy as they used to.

3) More tanks. Yes I can peel off a land raider a turn. But I can only deal with a couple of anything else in a turn unless the dice totally fall in my favor. If I have to shoot up a half dozen Razorbacks and a platoon of Predators, some of those Razorbacks are going to get in close where some angry dudes in power armour can jump out and wreck my gak.

How about this: don't use death stars and present multiple targets with distributed firepower.

Besides, Tau are pretty much the gold standard for killing tanks anyway.

If you don't care about how long you're shooting and thus contributing what exactly do you want from you're vehicles? Sit there looking pretty while they're stun locked each turn?

I want to have a terribly annoying wall packed full of melta guns and plasma guns you really have to struggle with to get to the soft insides. Not a 1 turn use armor save I just paid 50 points for per unit. What little firepower chimeras have never hits anyhow.

 michaelcycle wrote:
I play ig. I felt the pain first game I played. I could care less about being able to shoot longer before dying. Because now I die after a turn as opposed to castling and shooting 3 turns then moving on objectives the last two rounds and pray I drive close enough to drop my guys off before being popped. Small arms fire rips apart transports now too.

The biggest problem is that transports got a big nerf. Proper tanks didn't get a big hit because av 13/14 is still solid and now they can shoot consistently. And the problems with the transport nerf is that some armies rely on their transports as armor (ig) where as marines really don't need them to be effective.

This is what we get when fluff bunnies and casual players squeal loud enough and long enough. And gamesworkshop doesn't know how to balance anything so there you have it.

I really hate to be a jerk, but this post comes off as really missing the point on the vehicle change. So you can't just sit back for 3-4 turns bunkered in vehicles where my enemy can't hurt you, too bad. I apologize for singling you out, but lets be honest, a simple transport with AV11 or AV12 armor should not be able to shrug off lascannons or missiles for any amount of time.

In a transport you SHOULD have to utilize cover to its fullest and you SHOULD need to make the enemy choose between popping a cheap transport and shooting at a higher threat, higher armor vehicle.

If you want something to shrug off high str, low ap, anti armor weapons (barring melta, because almost nothing can take melta to the face) then you should be rolling heavy AV13/AV14.

Transports get troops where they need to go and protect said troops from anti troop weapons. Anything beyond that is a blessing from the Emperor (or whatever heathen idols you filthy heretics and xenos worship )

6th has brought a watershed change to how i play vehicles, so perhaps this advice will help.

Small transports are dead, and 6th edition killed them. Bringing those rhinos and chimeras out of cover at all will result in them dying horribly a good portion of the time, as glancing hits are easy to come by against av 11 or 12, and all the heavy ordinance that people pack into their lists seldom has a better target the first turn anyway. Having to keep them 'in' cover as was suggested negates their only advantage, the fact that they are faster than the infantry riding inside.

So you should instead consider deepstriking lists, outflanking lists, and/or some other method to get troops from point A to point 'kill-stuff-now' with a minimum of fuss. Fliers are good for this too. (especially the necron variety)

The above said, i've still had decent luck with dreadnoughts, razorbacks, and other light (cheap) vehicles sporting long-ranged weaponry. These you can easily keep in cover and still expect to do their thing, just don't count on them as transports and you should be fine.

Small transports are hardly dead. They still protect from small arms fire and templates and blasts.

Deep striking requires reserving, which is usually a disaster as you piecemeal yourself. I love it when people reserve.

Rhinos are cheap and enemy armies do not have unlimited amounts of anti-tank fire. Sure, they are going to die, but they are so cheap its well worth it.

Why doesn't the enemy have anything better to shoot at? If you reserve as little as possible (flyers) they should be faced with almost all of your list. Do you comprehend how *many* Chimeras the IG can throw at you? Cover is only 5++, and have triple the hulls works much better.

Tanks are fine. Fielded properly, they do what they are supposed to do: heavy firepower and bullet-shield/magnets. However, the same people who want every codex to have an MTG-like lock on the game are usually the same ones who figure a tank is safe everywhere on the field.

Its called tactics. Start using them.

Tanks are pretty much useless here, but only because we have a Tau inflation (that I am a proud part of)

If I get the first turn, Mr. Tau, my BA still get 24" closer to you. That's not useless. Any rail gun or plasma rifle shooting a tank is not shooting something that I care about.

Martel732 wrote:Small transports are hardly dead. They still protect from small arms fire and templates and blasts.

Deep striking requires reserving, which is usually a disaster as you piecemeal yourself. I love it when people reserve.

Rhinos are cheap and enemy armies do not have unlimited amounts of anti-tank fire. Sure, they are going to die, but they are so cheap its well worth it.

Why doesn't the enemy have anything better to shoot at? If you reserve as little as possible (flyers) they should be faced with almost all of your list. Do you comprehend how *many* Chimeras the IG can throw at you? Cover is only 5++, and have triple the hulls works much better.

Figure i'll address a few of the above:
Protection from small arms fire means very little if the transport doesn't ever make it into small arms fire range. Ditto, templates. Blasts tend towards stuff that can pop AV 11, so that one is hit or miss, if you'll pardon the expression.

If you are going to deepstrike (and i do recommend doing so) there are plenty of options that will insure most of your stuff comes in on the second turn. (if not the first). Why take deepstriking units and do nothing to support them? Failing anything which gives you a bonus to it; your units still stand a 2/3rds chance of coming in each time you roll for them which is hardly 'piecemeal'.

Because your stuff is all in metal boxes? Sure you may have 100 models on the army list but if they are mostly in tin cans those vehicles are going to bear the brunt of the initial assault unless you presented a more tempting target elsewhere. All the incidental krak missile, rail gun, eldrich lance, etc fire is going to be aimed at blunting your advance across the board so many of those vehicles are never going to make it to their intended destination.

Peregrine wrote:
But if you get that 6 you then have a 5/6 chance of stopping the tank from shooting next turn, and even that one bad result permanently immobilizes it.

All true. But quite often you may have taken multiple hits in a turn, and now instead of just sitting around for a turn, it's dead instead. And it's not like tanks don't still have penetrating hits inflicted on them with great frequency.

In 5th you could spam a ton of shots and hope for a suppressing glance, but in 6th all you do is take off a hull point and the tank keeps shooting.

Assuming a single glance.

Suppression is no longer possible

It's still entirely possible, you just need a pen to do it. Many weapons will penetrate much more often than they'll glance (e.g. Autocannons vs AV10/11, Lascannons vs anything but AV14, etc)

Anyway, in 6th it's simple:

Not quite so much.

Against melta/lascannons/etc there's no change. You're probably dying to an "explodes" result before HP loss is a factor, and the chances of that result are the same as in 5th.

Yes, but having *TWO* overlapping kill systems drastically reduces the average life expectancy. For instance, the chance to kill a Leman Russ with a Lascannon by penetrating and rolling a 5/6 hasn't changed, you still need an average of 18 hits. However, because of HP's, you only need an average of 9 hits to kill through HP's alone, only half what it takes for a penetrating kill. Taken together, since the system is "If X *OR* Y is met" this means you actually need an average of about 7-8 hits before one or the other has been met as a non-mutually exclusive kill system, meaning we've reduced the average number of lascannon shots needed on average to kill that Leman Russ by less than half, almost a third.

Against assault there's no change.

There's actually quite a very large change, cripplingly so.

Technically you go from being hit in a 4+ to a 3+ (few tanks could reduce it to a 6 without giving up shooting)

Anything Fast could, but it was an option either way for everything that no longer exists now as a tactical alternative.

, but in 5th you were still screwed if anything more threatening than a single tactical marine got to assault your tank.

A 10man squad with krak grenades hits a 6" or less moving vehicle under 5th. 5 hits, 1.66 pens, 0.55 kill results, in other words, in other words, a slightly higher than 50/50 average result to kill with straight average rolling.

Under 6th, you only get 0.37 kill results, but inflict an average of 3.33 hull points in HP damage. This means that, while the chance to kill through a Damage Table result is reduced to about 2/3rd's of what it was, with straight average rolling you'll kill the tank, even with somewhat below average rolling you'll likely still kill it.

Moving the average result from "almost certainly dead" to "massively overkilled" is not a meaningful change, it just lets assault players laugh at how they removed 15 HP in a single charge.

No, it's gone from "slightly worse than a coin flip odds" with the option (if you move over 6") to swing it massively in your favor, to "assured destruction with no mitigation" as long as they don't roll total crap.

Against other weapons it balances out. Tanks die faster, but are more likely to function effectively until they die instead of being suppressed and useless until someone finally rolls a 5+ on the damage table.

Except that the suppression mechanic still exists, all that's changed is glancing hits which against most AT guns are a minority of hits.

The only time your tanks will be firing more often is if your opponent is doing a single glance a turn and nothing more and not bringing bigger guns to bear. That's it. That's the only time you'll really get more mileage out of them. That's a relatively niche condition even under previous editions.

Additionally, against a competent opponent concentrating fire or multi-weapon AT units, chances are often that you'll simply be dead instead of disabled for a turn.

On top of that, they have no ability to affect mission objectives at all anymore, even with embarked infantry units.

So, it all depends on how you look at it. If your tanks are there to kill stuff or deliver a unit they got better. If your tanks are there to be a 7-turn bunker on an objective they got worse. But for units like the Leman Russ 6th is an improvement over 5th.

Again, only if you're talking about taking 1 glancing hit a turn and nothing else, even then it's debateable because they likely won't be there towards the end of the game as often.

Leman Russ tanks also got hit with Heavy, which, you'd think would be nice, but since GW retained the restrictions on Ordnance weapons, makes the basic and primary heavy models significantly less useful on top of that

 Neorealist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Small transports are hardly dead. They still protect from small arms fire and templates and blasts.

Deep striking requires reserving, which is usually a disaster as you piecemeal yourself. I love it when people reserve.

Rhinos are cheap and enemy armies do not have unlimited amounts of anti-tank fire. Sure, they are going to die, but they are so cheap its well worth it.

Why doesn't the enemy have anything better to shoot at? If you reserve as little as possible (flyers) they should be faced with almost all of your list. Do you comprehend how *many* Chimeras the IG can throw at you? Cover is only 5++, and have triple the hulls works much better.

Figure i'll address a few of the above:
Protection from small arms fire means very little if the transport doesn't ever make it into small arms fire range. Ditto, templates. Blasts tend towards stuff that can pop AV 11, so that one is hit or miss, if you'll pardon the expression.

If you are going to deepstrike (and i do recommend doing so) there are plenty of options that will insure most of your stuff comes in on the second turn. (if not the first). Why take deepstriking units and do nothing to support them? Failing anything which gives you a bonus to it; your units still stand a 2/3rds chance of coming in each time you roll for them which is hardly 'piecemeal'.

Because your stuff is all in metal boxes? Sure you may have 100 models on the army list but if they are mostly in tin cans those vehicles are going to bear the brunt of the initial assault unless you presented a more tempting target elsewhere. All the incidental krak missile, rail gun, eldrich lance, etc fire is going to be aimed at blunting your advance across the board so many of those vehicles are never going to make it to their intended destination.

Deep striking large amounts of forces is a poor scheme. A 2/3 chance ensures nothing, so you are indeed piecemealing your army. I imagine the comeback to this is the aegis comm uplink. However, the portion of your list that starts on the board is going to take it in the face badly while waiting for the miracle deep strikes to happen. When the deep strikers do show up, they often get one turn of shooting and then assaulted in the face. If you use drop pods, the stuff that has to start rolling on turn 2 by definition can't be there on turn 1 to support. The turn 1 guys will likely already be in HTH when the turn 2 guys show up. They can't shoot into said HTH fights. You get dismantled piecemeal.

If they shoot at my metal boxes with troops, then they are not shooting my metal boxes with guns. I'm fine with that, because if I shoot their shooters, while their shooters are shooting my transports, I can just proceed to win the ensuing shoot out and mobility is not as important.

As an Ork player I have been feeling the changes in my games. I face DE fairly often Tyranids and of course marines of all types. Not only have I noticed my battle wagons popping allot faster but when they do I am losing half of the boys inside now. I think DE got hit in that respect as well. Battle wagons are notoriously easy to get side shots on and lances don't need even need to open topped giving a + on the damage chart but still inflicting st4 hits just hurt a little to much. People are bringing allot more melta and ap2 weapons now days to deal with terminators and that does not help either. I really don't like that a vehicle moving flat out can be hit just as easily as anything else in cc either that one just seemed wrong to me as well. It's made me change my game up allot and how I move around the table but I no longer look at my vehicles with any confidence what so ever that they will achieve their purpose which is what really kinda bothers me the most I know it's all chance but just from the games I have played they just don't perform their duty more often than not. I would probably feel different if I actually counted on those units to shoot something but again I play orks so ya can't really rely on them for that unless it's a dakka jet.

Martel732 wrote: Deep striking large amounts of forces is a poor scheme. A 2/3 chance ensures nothing, so you are indeed piecemealing your army. I imagine the comeback to this is the aegis comm uplink. However, the portion of your list that starts on the board is going to take it in the face badly while waiting for the miracle deep strikes to happen. When the deep strikers do show up, they often get one turn of shooting and then assaulted in the face. If you use drop pods, the stuff that has to start rolling on turn 2 by definition can't be there on turn 1 to support. The turn 1 guys will likely already be in HTH when the turn 2 guys show up. They can't shoot into said HTH fights. You get dismantled piecemeal.

If they shoot at my metal boxes with troops, then they are not shooting my metal boxes with guns. I'm fine with that, because if I shoot their shooters, while their shooters are shooting my transports, I can just proceed to win the ensuing shoot out and mobility is not as important.

You appear to have a hypothetical cheap to field army that can shoot and assault well, and can buy cheap vehicles in which to do so as well. Which one is that again? as most armies are 2 out of 3 of those at best. I'd suggest sticking with the theme of a specific army type when addressing my points. (you appeared to have chosen guard for this purpose from your previous posts right up until you said that you'd assault stuff coming out of drop pods with impunity...)

The stuff you tend to bring in for a deepstriking list are your long-ranged support elements. The stuff that you can put in cover and that doesn't need to move around much to do it's thing. Then you drop pod (or what have you) your forward elements to shoot at targets of opportunity (typically the enemies long-ranged support elements as they tend to give the best cost-per-action taken) and give your opponent a much more immediate threat than your long-ranged support units. It actually works pretty well if the dice don't absolutely hate you on reserve rolls and scatter.

I guess it depends a lot on which army is deep striking as well. But in general, I think deep striking and reserves suck hard.

Reserves used to be good, when you could throw your entire army in reserve to ignore turn 1 entirely if you went second, however this was only reliable if you had an astropath or hive commander, something of that variety. Now you lose the game if at any point you don't have anything on the board.

I did that a lot as guard too. Wasting a turns means my sardine cans ignore a turn of stunned or shaken, maybe even destroyed. That's huge, making a typically 5 turn game into a 4 turn game. The longer I can hide in my cars the better since a 5+ save is a joke. Marine players can squeal about their razor back rhino spam lists getting nerfed but I'm tired of hearing it. You get a 3+ you should be foot slogging - guard and dark eldar need transports.

My friend would reserve everything in his dark eldar list unless he went turn one so he could get a nice salvo of dark lance fire before his paper planes were wrecked turn 2 or 3. A viable tactic for paper planes. Now de are lucky if their cars last beyond the first turn.

While the low AV vehicles are crap they still serve a vital purpose - protecting the squad inside. Also rhinos, razorbacks and chimeras still block LOS and can be kept relatively alive for one turn by popping smoke.

Now if we are going to expect a Razorback to stand up as well as a true tank, we are going to be sorely disappointed. If we look at it that I can have two razorbacks instead of one predator, it is not so bad.

The best thing in 6th is the bonus that the LR, LR demolisher and any other large blast template got... Since only the template has to touch a tank, we are talking S 8 hits on anything... Including 3 rhinos side-by-side!!!

Rhinos are really only for shooting units, and should be transporting such.

Tanks actually got better this edition, no longer could a stray glance immobilize, weapon destroy or shake/stun your vehicle.

You need to saturate your tanks or take 1-2 very high AV ones. If you simply take a rhino or two, they are not going to do much.

Reserving your entire army in 5th was a good way to hand your opponent an easy victory. Reserves have never been good, because they are a strategic concept, not a tactical one. In 40K, you want stuff shooting and drawing fire from turn 1. It also doesn't help that you can instagib your own unit when deep striking and you are basically stuck in place after you do it. It sucks and always has.

Martel732 wrote:
Reserving your entire army in 5th was a good way to hand your opponent an easy victory. Reserves have never been good, because they are a strategic concept, not a tactical one. In 40K, you want stuff shooting and drawing fire from turn 1. It also doesn't help that you can instagib your own unit when deep striking and you are basically stuck in place after you do it. It sucks and always has.

I cannot disagree more. I ran a null deployment IG army in 5th edition and not only was it amazingly effective, it was fun as hell.

It wasn't hot gak because it maximized the number of turns it spent shooting. It was hot gak because it minimized the opponent's opportunities to shoot and assault friendly units while maximizing the effectiveness of your shooting through location alone - it put you in the right place, at the right time, to do damage. It did, however, have the benefit of 3+ T2 reserve rolls and nearly half of the army was capable of outflanking or deep striking.


Now that they've boned full reserve armies, playing IG isn't nearly as much fun for me anymore to be honest.

Another thing I'd note is that close combat isn't actually as bad for vehicles as it initially looks.

Now, as then, you automatically hit vehicles that didn't move, and when vehicles moved a little bit, they got hit on 4's, and are now hit on 3's. Not the hugest deal in the world. Yeah, it's a lot easier to hit tanks that moved really far in the previous movement phase, but I can count on one hand the number of times that actually happened in 5th ed. I mean, seriously, good luck catching a skimmer in close combat. They can move way faster than you can, and can always stay out of threat range.

Meanwhile, krak grenades are now 50% less likely to wreck a vehicle with a penetrating hit, and frag grenades can't hurt vehicles AT ALL now. I definitely glanced rhinos to death in 5th, something I can't do now with my swarm of guardsmen.

Add to that the fact that there are specific buffs to vehicles against assaults (like being able to overwatch against dudes who assault your transport), and that assault in general is much, much worse than it was in 5th, (so you're not even all that likely to have stuff that CAN assault your tanks anymore), and, if anything, tanks got relatively BETTER against assault than they were in 5th ed.

And the anecdotal evidence I have supports that. I took out a couple dozen vehicles in close combat in 5th, and haven't even gotten close to this yet in 6th, and I certainly saw my fair share of S8 powerfists taking down vehicles in 5th, and I've yet to see that happen even once in 6th. Your tanks can't be killed by powerfists anymore if 6th ed has forced everyone to stop taking powerfists.

 juraigamer wrote:
Rhinos are really only for shooting units, and should be transporting such.

Tanks actually got better this edition, no longer could a stray glance immobilize, weapon destroy or shake/stun your vehicle.

That's the only thing they gained, that doesn't mean they got better.

The average number of shots required to kill most vehicles is roughly halved in most cases, and a tiny number of glances will kill any tank without ever having to bother with the damage table, they are practically auto-killed in CC with no mitigation, they cannot even contest mission objectives even with embarked infantry, transport state affects embarked infantry, smoke launchers became less functional, etc.

There's no way tanks are better this edition.

 Ailaros wrote:
Another thing I'd note is that close combat isn't actually as bad for vehicles as it initially looks.

Now, as then, you automatically hit vehicles that didn't move, and when vehicles moved a little bit, they got hit on 4's, and are now hit on 3's. Not the hugest deal in the world.

It kinda is, especially in conjunction with HP's.

Yeah, it's a lot easier to hit tanks that moved really far in the previous movement phase, but I can count on one hand the number of times that actually happened in 5th ed. I mean, seriously, good luck catching a skimmer in close combat. They can move way faster than you can, and can always stay out of threat range.

It happened all the time in 5th ed, Not everything is a Starengine Fast Skimmer, a lot of time it was just the difference of moving 6" or 7". It's not like the game doesn't have Bikes, Cavalry, Jump Infantry, Flying creatures, etc, and average and max charge distances have increased with 6E.

Meanwhile, krak grenades are now 50% less likely to wreck a vehicle with a penetrating hit, and frag grenades can't hurt vehicles AT ALL now. I definitely glanced rhinos to death in 5th, something I can't do now with my swarm of guardsmen.

You don't need to kill it on a pen. HP's will do it for you. Even rolling below average, a 10man squad with krak grenades will inflict enough HP damage to kill any 3HP rear AV10 tank without ever having to roll on a damage chart no matter how far it moved.

And while basic guardsmen can't hurt them (at least without paying 1ppm), Veterans certainly can.

Add to that the fact that there are specific buffs to vehicles against assaults (like being able to overwatch against dudes who assault your transport),

Which, unless you have an embarked infantry unit with template weapons, isn't likely to do much of anything, especially as the tanks cannot overwatch.

and that assault in general is much, much worse than it was in 5th, (so you're not even all that likely to have stuff that CAN assault your tanks anymore),

It's entirely possible, I see it happen almost every game. Just because you can't outflank and assault from the board edge doesn't mean you'll never see tank assaults.

and, if anything, tanks got relatively BETTER against assault than they were in 5th ed.

In what possible way?

In every way the rulebook lays out, tanks are significantly easier, practically auto-killed, by anything that gets into them with even half-hearted AT ability.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Rhinos are really only for shooting units, and should be transporting such.

Tanks actually got better this edition, no longer could a stray glance immobilize, weapon destroy or shake/stun your vehicle.

That's the only thing they gained, that doesn't mean they got better.

The average number of shots required to kill most vehicles is roughly halved in most cases, and a tiny number of glances will kill any tank without ever having to bother with the damage table, they are practically auto-killed in CC with no mitigation, they cannot even contest mission objectives even with embarked infantry, transport state affects embarked infantry, smoke launchers became less functional, etc.

There's no way tanks are better this edition.

Yes way. Tanks got a hell of a lot better. The average mech will get an extra couple of turns of shooting due to not being glance-locked - for free. Turn 2/3 mech is a hell of a lot scarier dakka-wise than it used to be.

BryllCream wrote:
Yes way. Tanks got a hell of a lot better. The average mech will get an extra couple of turns of shooting due to not being glance-locked - for free. Turn 2/3 mech is a hell of a lot scarier dakka-wise than it used to be.

This assumes they only inflict a single glancing hit and nothing else. That's it. That is the only time you'll get that. That's a hugely minority case, most weapons being turned on tanks will inflict pens at least as often, if not more, than glances, and if they're doing more than one glance the tanks likely dead or nearly there.


So yeah, if all your opponent does is glance (not pen) each tank exactly once, you'll get more shooting early on. That's not the reality of the game of 40k in the vast majority of cases.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
Kinda. One of my biggest complains is that 6th edition is clearly made so that every player has to buy a $70 (give or take) flyer in order to be even slightly competitive.

I object, a CSM army could just bring loads of missile launchers with the flakk upgrade - they'd be capable of massacring hordes, munching on tanks, and firing so many flakk missiles into the air that your flyer goes down on turn 1 or 2 (whichever it arrives). This kind of tactic is quite easy to accomplish too - In a maxed FoC you could fit: three havoc squads, each with 4 ML, six ten-man CSM units with a ML each (for a total of 18 ML's) and then just bring whatever else you want (maybe a flying daemon prince to F*** your s*** up in the air?).

EDIT: You could also just use shooty orks (which are surprisingly valid now), the huge rate of fire that normally makes up for their poor BS allows them to just point a few lootaz at the sky, and knock down the fliers, and then proceed to do the same thing to all ground targets.

and then there's the usual MEQ option of decking out your infantry units with a ton of heavy weapons, and watching your enemy cry as he lascannons down one man at a time, while you sit 48" away, blasting at everything in sight.