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People are going on and on about how awesome DW knights are and I just dont see it. AP4 just doesnt cut it. I dont mean power maces are bad, I like them on sergeants, but when you have the 2+/3++ you really want something that hits hard and at AP2.
Sure they can smite for str10 ap2 and are WS5 but that only goes so far.
What happens when you get into combat with a tactical squad? DW knights do only double the damage of assault marines, but those are assualt marines. It is not like they are particularly good in assault.

When they get in with other terminators, they must use smite to do any damage. But what if those other TDA have SS as well? Most of them will survive and then in sucessive rounds wont do any damage.

Lychguard and Pratorians are also a problem. Wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ hurts. Not getting through the armor and then WWB(RP)

What about elite eldar? Do you really want to have to use smite on scorpians and incubi? What happens when once it is used you then get stuck by a wraithlord or talos?

Basically I feel they need smite to beat anything have competent. They also need smite to avoid getting bogged down by heavy chaff. When a tactical squad has a chance to keep you engaged for 3-4 rounds of combat your pure melee crushing machine can be in trouble.

Yeah, highly overrated. STR 10 AP 2 at initiative is good, but AP 4 is bad and not being a scoring unit is even worse. The only thing they're good for is countering an enemy death star unit (since your "powerfists" hit at initiative and kill the unit before it can swing, and you rarely have more than one death star to kill so the one-shot attack is fine), but that's a pretty narrow role.

I haven't ever used them, so take this with a grain of salt, but from the looks of it, they seem to add a bit of synergy during DWA. You've got this group of guys that land in your deployment zone, and if you don't deal with them at least by throwing a unit into combat with them, you're going to get assaulted with some AP2 goodness. They're T5 when they lock up, 2+/3++, basically a nice "rock" unit to take the heat off of some of your other Terminators.

Good opponents will probably throw sacrificial squads at them and shoot your other Terminators...have to play test to find out.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
You've got this group of guys that land in your deployment zone, and if you don't deal with them at least by throwing a unit into combat with them, you're going to get assaulted with some AP2 goodness.

But regular terminators do that just as well, and are scoring. The special attack only really matters when you're dealing with other death stars that swing at I1 and take you down with them unless you wipe them out at I4, for killing random tactical squads and stuff regular deathwing are more than good enough.

I think the unit was designed and is semi decent as a "amvil" unit. They cannot really deal with other terminators unless they smite. However they can definitely handle tac squads, devastators and any other "soft" back fielders. They are also cheaper that SS/TH termies in the same codex and for that gain +1T when "bunched" together, BTW the quotes are cause they only need half the squad bunched together. I can definitely see dropping them into the backfield near several vulnerable targets and letting the enemy chew them up while the rest of your force does its thing.

I do however think they will never be croissant spam or the next longfangs.

Certainly not an amazing must take unit, I rather like it that way. If they are just better than TH/SS Termies it would be just silly.
I like the fact their cool bits comes in the box so you can have more variety of termie models.

I totally agree with your analysis of the knights.
They are woefully overrated against anything that is a non chaos meq/teq.

 ansacs wrote:
However they can definitely handle tac squads, devastators and any other "soft" back fielders.

But anything can deal with those "soft" units. Why settle for this unit when you have outflanking ravenwing/teleporting deathwing/etc to deal with them while also being better at other things?

They are also cheaper that SS/TH termies in the same codex

But they also aren't scoring. I'd rather pay the few extra points for deathwing and get another scoring unit. Even if the knights are better in some situations they aren't better enough overall to justify losing scoring status.

and for that gain +1T when "bunched" together

That's of pretty marginal value. Most things that really hurt terminators wound on a 2+ against both T4 and T5, so you don't really gain anything besides greater vulnerability to blast/template weapons.

Well someone said that you can get speed bumped by power armor marines but I'm pretty sure with belial and a librarian attached, between them and the knight master's ap3 attacks they can handle power armor... Not to mention the 20 WS5 str6 attacks they get... Yea pretty sure I'm not worried about it.

tautemplar wrote:
Well someone said that you can get speed bumped by power armor marines but I'm pretty sure with belial and a librarian attached, between them and the knight master's ap3 attacks they can handle power armor... Not to mention the 20 WS5 str6 attacks they get... Yea pretty sure I'm not worried about it.

I think you're missing the point of a speed bump. Even if you kill it in one turn you still have to spend a whole turn killing that cheap and expendable unit, and that's what kills a death star. Then you get to spend another turn getting shot to death, and are not even guaranteed to be able to charge anything meaningful on the next turn. You spend all of your time overkilling speed bumps and never kill enough to justify the huge increase in point cost over a weaker unit that would still slaughter the speed bump units just as fast.

A unit that ties you up in combat forever is a tar pit, not a speed bump. For example, if you assault an IG blob squad you will not be leaving that combat before the game ends, and the blob squad is a lot cheaper than the knights + characters.

tautemplar wrote:
Well someone said that you can get speed bumped by power armor marines but I'm pretty sure with belial and a librarian attached, between them and the knight master's ap3 attacks they can handle power armor... Not to mention the 20 WS5 str6 attacks they get... Yea pretty sure I'm not worried about it.

a lot of things can be used to hurt 3+ save things, when you add 300 points in characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are a lot of semi soft units that can give them fits. Without smite can they really deal with Death Company, Grey Hunters?

I think you're supposed to use them with the ravenwing grenade launcher. That's when the magic happens.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/500639.page

This thread has been done before. And on the front page, too.

 Exergy wrote:
People are going on and on about how awesome DW knights are and I just dont see it. AP4 just doesnt cut it. I dont mean power maces are bad, I like them on sergeants, but when you have the 2+/3++ you really want something that hits hard and at AP2.
Sure they can smite for str10 ap2 and are WS5 but that only goes so far.
What happens when you get into combat with a tactical squad? DW knights do only double the damage of assault marines, but those are assualt marines. It is not like they are particularly good in assault.

When they get in with other terminators, they must use smite to do any damage. But what if those other TDA have SS as well? Most of them will survive and then in sucessive rounds wont do any damage.

Lychguard and Pratorians are also a problem. Wounding on 3+ instead of 2+ hurts. Not getting through the armor and then WWB(RP)

What about elite eldar? Do you really want to have to use smite on scorpians and incubi? What happens when once it is used you then get stuck by a wraithlord or talos?

Basically I feel they need smite to beat anything have competent. They also need smite to avoid getting bogged down by heavy chaff. When a tactical squad has a chance to keep you engaged for 3-4 rounds of combat your pure melee crushing machine can be in trouble.

Well, everything what has been said here is true. But in a game, the Knights will only need to go once into the smite mode to wipe out an enemy unit in cc. This works vs all enemy units up to Assault Termies with storm shields. I find them very useful.

I play mine with a character in it, starting now with an interrigator chaplain w/ mace. All those re-rolling hits and woulds are awesome for any mode.

I don't have a lot of experience for them, but in the games I played so far:

game 1: Thier land raider blew up from mass leman russ fire, and they footsogged across the board, soaking up tons of fire as the rest of my units moved into the enemies back field. Ended up being just a Company master w/ mace and the knight master, but they destroyed 2 leman russes in assault and opened up another to rear shots. They also contested an objective.

Game 2: Charged a prince in a throw away game against daemons, but they stuck in combat from turns 2-5, killing fateweaver. the knights where the last unit on the table too.

Game 3: Interrigator lead unit charged a C:SM honor-guard squad with a chapter master, and completely slaughtered them from weight of attacks/smite, loseing none and giving me slay the warlord.


I rather like them, as they are killy enough for me, and can make your warlord a pain to remove, even while being a fire sponge. besides, if you don't like them, then take A DW squad w/ TH/SS in place of a knight squad w/ relic. same amount of points, and enough AP2 to please your needs. you could even go cheaper with 3 TH/SS and 2 lightning claws.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, highly overrated. STR 10 AP 2 at initiative is good, but AP 4 is bad and not being a scoring unit is even worse. The only thing they're good for is countering an enemy death star unit (since your "powerfists" hit at initiative and kill the unit before it can swing, and you rarely have more than one death star to kill so the one-shot attack is fine), but that's a pretty narrow role.

Wait on a minute you think beating a 10 man hammenator unit with 10 guys at initiative and then glancing a dreadnought or 7 down every turn.
or killing a 10 mega Nob and then stalling the the rest of the Ork army with one unit. How powerfull did you want them to be? You understand that there OP with Divination and they can have it for 65pts
They can literally kill any unit even in Apoc

I so hope Orks get this rule for the WAAAAAGH that would fix every problem with the Ork codex

Not overrated or overcosted. They earn their points, are the ultimate bubble wrap, have excellent control of the timing of their CC victories, and even have a little fluffy flair to them. They're not too far from an easy button yet just avoid being cheese. These guys and the black knights are my exhibit A and B as the DA codex being the best release in 5 years.

If you think they're overrated, then I'm guessing you've not fielded them yet. On paper they're good/meh, on the TT they are game changers when used thoughtfully. I truly think every future codex should follow the spirit of the CSM/DA releases, with more Deathwing Knights and fewer Mutilators.

 Lobukia wrote:
Not overrated or overcosted. They earn their points, are the ultimate bubble wrap, have excellent control of the timing if their CC victories, and even have a little fluffy flair to them. They're not too far from an easy button yet just avoid being cheese. These guys and the black knights are my exhibit A and B as the DA codex being the best release in 5 years.

Both, the Knights from DW and RW are decent units. Not sure if its the best release in 5 years since Necrons cough* cough* were released not long ago.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Not overrated or overcosted. They earn their points, are the ultimate bubble wrap, have excellent control of the timing if their CC victories, and even have a little fluffy flair to them. They're not too far from an easy button yet just avoid being cheese. These guys and the black knights are my exhibit A and B as the DA codex being the best release in 5 years.

Both, the Knights from DW and RW are decent units. Not sure if its the best release in 5 years since Necrons cough* cough* were released not long ago.

I didn't mean best as in winniest, I meant as in done right, enhances the game and improves the meta. Crons were good, but too much transport cheese (to me that's a poorly done 'dex, not a good one). I don't see any single unit in the DA dec that is an exploit waiting to happen yet there are many that are solid 40k units but don't feel like a cheat when you're on the receiving end.

 Lobukia wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Not overrated or overcosted. They earn their points, are the ultimate bubble wrap, have excellent control of the timing if their CC victories, and even have a little fluffy flair to them. They're not too far from an easy button yet just avoid being cheese. These guys and the black knights are my exhibit A and B as the DA codex being the best release in 5 years.

Both, the Knights from DW and RW are decent units. Not sure if its the best release in 5 years since Necrons cough* cough* were released not long ago.

I didn't mean best as in winniest, I meant as in done right, enhances the game and improves the meta. Crons were good, but too much transport cheese (to me that's a poorly done 'dex, not a good one). I don't see any single unit in the DA dec that is an exploit waiting to happen yet there are many that are solid 40k units but don't feel like a cheat when you're on the receiving end.

Yeah, I know what you mean and I think you're right. Nevertheless, when you're play Knights (DW or RW), the opponent at the receiving end will eventually have a hard time to deal with them.

They're as good as any other terminator, which is to say, terrible.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They're as good as any other terminator, which is to say, terrible.

They could certainly be a bit cheaper to take but dealing with a 2+/3i model for most armies is a royal pain in the ass. In my tournament their smite attacks easily downed a T9 Tervigon, a full unit of TH/SS plus half of another (was against another DW player) and in my last game a GW Dreadnight. They are the best Terminator unit in the codex and should if played right, always get back their points cost at a minimum.

 yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:
Wait on a minute you think beating a 10 man hammenator unit with 10 guys at initiative and then glancing a dreadnought or 7 down every turn.
or killing a 10 mega Nob and then stalling the the rest of the Ork army with one unit. How powerfull did you want them to be? You understand that there OP with Divination and they can have it for 65pts
They can literally kill any unit even in Apoc

The aren't overrated because they're not powerful enough, they're overrated because they're expensive overkill outside of a narrow role. Yes, you can kill an entire TH/SS unit before it swings, but if your opponent didn't bring a unit like that you're going to spend the whole game killing Rhinos and 5-man tactical squads. And since regular deathwing terminators are just as good at killing Rhinos and 5-man tactical squads and are also a scoring unit the only reason to take the knights is if you expect to face a similar death star in your opponent's army.

They dont just kill TH/SS termies, they kill anything that generally absorbs damage from almost any targets. TW cav, nob bikers, tyranid tyrant deathstars, tervigons, and can get locked in combat at a moments notice to avoid plasma fire just to break out on their turn and go punching more stuff. Also, AP4, while mediocre, is irrelevant vs vehicles. These things are just as good as any terminator in punching vehicles to death. So you lock yourself in melee with a decent sized squad, break out during their turn with your smite, then punch a vehicle and easily make your points back and still have a tough unit stuck in the enemy backfield. One of the best ways to kill terminators outside plasma is quantity of wounds. These guys make that tactic much harder with T5 absorbing most S3-4-5 shots.

While i would have liked to see Belial make them ~20 points cheaper (and ravenwing knights for Sammael), they are pretty good as is. Personally i like the flexibility of striking at I and getting stuck in combat by choice over regular terminators. It makes them much harder to deal with.

Someone has mentioned to me, the following combination:

Belial
Ezekiel
6 Deathwing Knights

Crusader.

I then wished to slap the Heresy off his face for suggesting this.

It's not a bad combo, but it's mighty expensive in a Mechinator army. Footslogging with max squads and the fnp banner, might work.

Any other opinions?

zephoid wrote:
They dont just kill TH/SS termies, they kill anything that generally absorbs damage from almost any targets. TW cav, nob bikers, tyranid tyrant deathstars, tervigons,

And if your opponent didn't bring those units they're a giant point sink that will never accomplish anything. By taking them you're gambling on your opponent bringing one of those units and giving them a role.

and can get locked in combat at a moments notice to avoid plasma fire just to break out on their turn and go punching more stuff.

Err, how? How do you avoid killing the 5-man tactical squad you just assaulted to "avoid plasma fire"?

Also, AP4, while mediocre, is irrelevant vs vehicles. These things are just as good as any terminator in punching vehicles to death.

Worse, because they're not STR 8 like other terminators. Not that it matters, because normal deathwing kill vehicles just as well but are also a scoring unit.

I'm thinking the advantages to Deathwing Knights are T5 in close order (thereby reducing their vulnerability to gunfire) and the Precision Strikes; you don't use them to go after elite close-combat units, you use them to root out scary people in squads with mixed weapons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm thinking the advantages to Deathwing Knights are T5 in close order (thereby reducing their vulnerability to gunfire) and the Precision Strikes; you don't use them to go after elite close-combat units, you use them to root out scary people in squads with mixed weapons.

But how common is "scary people in squads with mixed weapons"? If you're talking about a single power weapon then challenges take care of it and precision strike is irrelevant. If you're talking about taking the melta gun out of a shooting unit then who cares about precision strike, you're already wiping out the entire unit with normal deathwing and killing the special/heavy weapon in the process.

Then use a DW squad in place of them! same amount of points if You build them right.

personally, I don't want everything to be troop choices. you usually only have four slots. I would like a unit to be something else other than an objective holder.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
personally, I don't want everything to be troop choices. you usually only have four slots. I would like a unit to be something else other than an objective holder.

Err, what? You have six troops slots plus allies (and since 6x deathwing is at least 1500 points that's more than enough slots). Where are you getting four slots from?

And why would you hate the idea of having objective holders? If unit A does all the things unit B does, costs the same, and also holds objectives why would you ever want to take unit B in a game where objectives are important? The fact that a unit CAN be used to hold objectives doesn't mean that you have to put it on one and never move the whole game, it's just an option that's available when you need it (and one that B doesn't have).