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Simple Question: If I MSS a unit of Deathwing Knights, am I allowed to activate his Smite mode when he does his attacks on his own unit?

On your turn you would have the option to activate it before your opponent, since you can choose the order in which things resolve. On his turn if decides not to activate it you can do so. However, always look at both sides of the coin, why would you WANT to activate that ability unless the lord with MSS is alone? Suddenly you have attacks that can ID any lord with the MSS (and his unit) when he has a 3+ invulnerable save to rely on, and you might kill up to 3 terminators when he's going to tear through any unit in the Necron codex, most likely including wraiths since they will be subject to the instant death from the S10 attacks.

OK found it.

Yes, it's an ability of the weapon, why would you not be able to use it?

 yakface wrote:

Smite mode?

What is that?

As in the smite mode from their Maces of Absolution that make them S +6 AP 2 until the end of the turn (one use in the game) instead of their normal profile of S +2 AP 4.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 yakface wrote:

Smite mode?

What is that?

As in the smite mode from their Maces of Absolution that make them S +6 AP 2 until the end of the turn (one use in the game) instead of their normal profile of S +2 AP 4.

Yeah sorry. Figured it out and deleted my stupid post.

I do think MSS can utilize this attack and doing so would force the entire unit to burn their smite mode at that time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
On your turn you would have the option to activate it before your opponent, since you can choose the order in which things resolve. On his turn if decides not to activate it you can do so. However, always look at both sides of the coin, why would you WANT to activate that ability unless the lord with MSS is alone? Suddenly you have attacks that can ID any lord with the MSS (and his unit) when he has a 3+ invulnerable save to rely on, and you might kill up to 3 terminators when he's going to tear through any unit in the Necron codex, most likely including wraiths since they will be subject to the instant death from the S10 attacks.

Question:

Why are you saying this is a thing that is decided by whose turn it is? The reason I ask is because at least in the digital codex version of the rule I'm looking at, there is no 'timing' listed as to when the Smite mode is declared, only just that all models in the unit must use their Smite mode at the same time.

So if the Necron player takes control of one model in the unit and forces him to use Smite Mode, then the rest of the models in the unit would have to do so. Similarly, if the Necron player takes control of one model and doesn't want to use Smite Mode, but the opposing player decides to use if for the squad, then still the MSS model would have to activate Smite Mode as well.

Basically if either player chooses to utilize Smite Mode then all the models use it that round.

I don't see how which players turn it is at the time has any effect in this particular case.

 yakface wrote:

OK found it.

Yes, it's an ability of the weapon, why would you not be able to use it?

I don't think you can use it because the whole squad has to do it, and you don't have control over the whole squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
'"All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolutions
smite setting at the same time.

This tells me that the guys that aren't MSS'd can refuse to use it and stop it from happening. There is nothing in MSS that suggests a single model can override the will of the entire squad. There is also nothing that suggests a single model can force the whole squad to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Probably needs and FAQ ruling, however I doubt one model can burn it for the whole squad.

This is why I think is should be activated by a LD test or something.

tgf wrote:

 yakface wrote:

OK found it.

Yes, it's an ability of the weapon, why would you not be able to use it?

I don't think you can use it because the whole squad has to do it, and you don't have control over the whole squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
'"All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolutions
smite setting at the same time.

This tells me that the guys that aren't MSS'd can refuse to use it and stop it from happening. There is nothing in MSS that suggests a single model can override the will of the entire squad. There is also nothing that suggests a single model can force the whole squad to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Probably needs and FAQ ruling, however I doubt one model can burn it for the whole squad.

What you're proposing would be correct if the rule said something like: "The Mace Mode can only be utilized in a phase where all models use it" or some such nonsense like that.

But the rule doesn't say that. It just says that all models must use [...] the Smite setting at the same time.

MSS gives the controlling player the option to use "any abilities and penalties from [the model's] close combat weapons (the controller of the MSS chooses which, if there is a choice)."

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

 yakface wrote:

Question:

Why are you saying this is a thing that is decided by whose turn it is? The reason I ask is because at least in the digital codex version of the rule I'm looking at, there is no 'timing' listed as to when the Smite mode is declared, only just that all models in the unit must use their Smite mode at the same time.

So if the Necron player takes control of one model in the unit and forces him to use Smite Mode, then the rest of the models in the unit would have to do so. Similarly, if the Necron player takes control of one model and doesn't want to use Smite Mode, but the opposing player decides to use if for the squad, then still the MSS model would have to activate Smite Mode as well.

Basically if either player chooses to utilize Smite Mode then all the models use it that round.

I don't see how which players turn it is at the time has any effect in this particular case.

I said because there may be some effect (can't think of one off the top of my head) that may go off at initiative 1 that would prevent the Smite mode from being activated. If it were the MSS controlling player's turn he can chose to have the maces activate smite mode then have the secondary effect happen, thereby allowing him to activate the smite mode by choosing the order that the effects happen. I feel it's always better to offer a small reminder of rules like that.

I don't think there is any RAW to support either side of this argument and that with out an FAQ this is silly to argue about.

 yakface wrote:
MSS gives the controlling player the option to use "any abilities and penalties from [the model's] close combat weapons (the controller of the MSS chooses which, if there is a choice)."

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

Technically I would say it's not so much a weapon "ability" it's just a choice of profiles, much the same as choosing between Frag or Krak missiles, I think there's some room for debate as to whether the RAW grants the Necron Player the selection of which profile such a model would use, the latest wording of the rule from the FAQ only specifically says the Necron players chooses which weapon is used, whether that choice includes choosing a specific profile seems questionable.

Drunkspleen wrote:

 yakface wrote:
MSS gives the controlling player the option to use "any abilities and penalties from [the model's] close combat weapons (the controller of the MSS chooses which, if there is a choice)."

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

Technically I would say it's not so much a weapon "ability" it's just a choice of profiles, much the same as choosing between Frag or Krak missiles, I think there's some room for debate as to whether the RAW grants the Necron Player the selection of which profile such a model would use, the latest wording of the rule from the FAQ only specifically says the Necron players chooses which weapon is used, whether that choice includes choosing a specific profile seems questionable.

You have got to be kidding here. Other than unreasonable speculation, there is no reason given to date that would imply the MSS do not get to select the weapon abilities, profile, anything.

Heard this arguments before. "You have permission to use the Force ability of the Force Weapon but it the owner's choice to spend the Warp Charge" rings any bells? MSS gives full control of the weapon and its abilities. If the Necron player choose to activate Smite, he can do so.

 azazel the cat wrote:
You have got to be kidding here. Other than unreasonable speculation, there is no reason given to date that would imply the MSS do not get to select the weapon abilities, profile, anything.

Other than unreasonable speculation, and of course, the RAW...

"the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice"

Here's a list of all the weapons a Deathwing Knight is equipped with:

Mace of Absolution

The RAW says the Necron player gets to choose a weapon from that list, and will benefit from the associated special rules.

The RAW doesn't clearly give the Necron player permission to choose a specific weapon profile.

You guys can dismiss the argument based on your preferred RAI interpretation if you want, but there's merit to it, and there will continue to be unless you refute it from a meaningful position.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 yakface wrote:
MSS gives the controlling player the option to use "any abilities and penalties from [the model's] close combat weapons (the controller of the MSS chooses which, if there is a choice)."

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

Technically I would say it's not so much a weapon "ability" it's just a choice of profiles, much the same as choosing between Frag or Krak missiles, I think there's some room for debate as to whether the RAW grants the Necron Player the selection of which profile such a model would use, the latest wording of the rule from the FAQ only specifically says the Necron players chooses which weapon is used, whether that choice includes choosing a specific profile seems questionable.

Is it really debatable? The FAQ says the Necron player chooses the weapon, the codex wording says the Necron player gets to choose to use the abilities that the weapon has. Unless you can find some sort of empirical evidence clarifying exactly what is or isn't a weapon's ability then I think the vast majority of people can recognize that if something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

At some point the general purview of a rule has to be taken into consideration because they simply cannot account for every possible permutation of wording. So far they've made essentially two clarifications regarding what kind of control the Necron player has since the original printing of the book and in both cases (being able to choose the weapon and being able to make the model activate his force weapon) they've followed the concept that Necron player is the one who gets to choose, which makes complete sense given the explanation of what the rule is representing.

So yes, I think there is absolutely no doubt that the Necron player gets to choose the weapon used, which in turn means he is choosing which profile of that weapon to use if there is a choice.

 yakface wrote:
The FAQ says the Necron player chooses the weapon, the codex wording says the Necron player gets to choose to use the abilities that the weapon has.

Is it really reasonable to consider both?

The entry from the FAQ is an errata, meant to replace previous wording, it wouldn't be reasonable to insist you still have to roll to spot Harlequins with Veil of Tears because that is how the codex read at one point, I think the same rules should apply here.

It is my opinion that they changed the rule to clarify that the Necron Player doesn't get to choose abilities, but only weapons, as opposed to the earlier wording which was entirely non-indicative of if it was referring to abilities or weapons.

Further the FAQ about Force Weapons and other Instant Death inflicting abilities only clarifies that abilities that are normally optional, or at the very least conditional, are covered by the purview of the wording which states a weapons special abilities apply, it's not granting additional control beyond the choice of weapon, it's merely clarifying how special abilities which aren't always active are handled, it may be relevant if you accept that a profile choice is a special ability, but I don't believe it is.

I would go on to argue that, despite your earlier disagreement with the point, because the rules for the Mace of Absolution demand the whole unit use their special profile at the same time, the Necron player is utterly incapable of meeting the requirements for activating the secondary profile, the Necron Player cannot exert control over the decision making process of models which aren't affected by Mind Shackle Scarabs, a rule saying all models must use the second profile at the same time is not the same as a rule saying if one model chooses to use the second profile all others must also do the same, it's still an individual choice for each model, just with a restriction demanding they all make a simultaneous choice otherwise said decision is voided.

Much as the Necron player couldn't trigger a force weapon instant death attempt if the enemy didn't inflict a wound previously, they cannot possibly nominate a second profile to be used unless they can meet the requirements demanded by it, that being that all the other models not controlled by the Necron player make the same decision.

copper.talos wrote:
Heard this arguments before. "You have permission to use the Force ability of the Force Weapon but it the owner's choice to spend the Warp Charge" rings any bells? MSS gives full control of the weapon and its abilities. If the Necron player choose to activate Smite, he can do so.

Yes but the force weapon only effects the MSS'd model, it does effect the rest of the squad that is no MSS'd making a decision for uncontrolled models. This is where the problem lies with the arguement for impacting the rest of the squad. If it was only the MSS'd model that used smite then it would be a no brainer, it happens. But smite is a squad activated ability, everyone in the squad has to use it at the same time. My opinion is it requires consent of both the MSS player and the player controlling the other 3 non-MSS'd knights. If both players say use smite it happens. If either one of the players says no smite it doesn't happen.

This is why I believe any kind of debate on this topic is a bit silly without an FAQ. There is really no situation like this that has occured in the past nor rules to cover it. An FAQ is needed to clarify it.

The other point I would make somewhat supporting the not able to trigger argument is MSS does not allow you to break other rules, for instance if the librarian is out of warp charges the necron player can not activate the force weapon, The necron player does not control all the knights and should not be able to make a decision for them.

tgf wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Heard this arguments before. "You have permission to use the Force ability of the Force Weapon but it the owner's choice to spend the Warp Charge" rings any bells? MSS gives full control of the weapon and its abilities. If the Necron player choose to activate Smite, he can do so.

Yes but the force weapon only effects the MSS'd model, it does effect the rest of the squad that is no MSS'd making a decision for uncontrolled models. This is where the problem lies with the arguement for impacting the rest of the squad. If it was only the MSS'd model that used smite then it would be a no brainer, it happens. But smite is a squad activated ability, everyone in the squad has to use it at the same time. My opinion is it requires consent of both the MSS player and the player controlling the other 3 non-MSS'd knights. If both players say use smite it happens. If either one of the players says no smite it doesn't happen.

This is why I believe any kind of debate on this topic is a bit silly without an FAQ. There is really no situation like this that has occured in the past nor rules to cover it. An FAQ is needed to clarify it.

The other point I would make somewhat supporting the not able to trigger argument is MSS does not allow you to break other rules, for instance if the librarian is out of warp charges the necron player can not activate the force weapon, The necron player does not control all the knights and should not be able to make a decision for them.

There has actually been a damn-near similar situation in effect since MSS were released: Grey Knight Force weapons. Its the reason that, when it matters, GK players burn Hammerhand at the start of the assault phase so that the MSS model can't activate his Force Weapon. And of course if he activated his Force Weapon this applies to the entire unit.


You guys do realize that what you're arguing means that if a Necron player successfully MSS a Deathwing Knight then it you're saying that the Dark Angel player now cannot use his 'Smite Mode' for his unit because somehow this can't 'force' the model under control of the Necron player to use Smite Mode if he doesn't want to?


This all works perfectly fine if you just follow the rules and assume (which is within complete reason) that Smite Mode is an ability of the weapon.

If both the DA player and the Necron (MSS) player's Deathknights are swinging at the same time, then either player may choose to use Smite Mode, and if they do, the entire squad uses it. But conversely, if the MSS Deathknight model was also in base contact with a Whip Coil Wraith from the start of the combat sub-phase (thereby reducing his I to 1) then the Dark Angel player would be swinging first and if he chose not to engage Smite Mode then when it came to the I1 step and the MSS Dreadknight swings he now would not be able to engage Smite Mode as doing so would now break the rule (all models in the unit would not be using Smite Mode at the same time).


Since MSS were released people keep trying to come up with reasons as to why they don't work in this situation or that situation instead of just accepting that, yes, they're awesome like most of the rest of the Necron codex.

Smite Mode is an ability of the weapon and therefore the Necron player can choose whether to use it or not, provided he's not swinging at a later step than the rest of his squadmates (and they chose not to use Smite Mode). I mean, if this ability didn't have the proviso that the whole squad had to use it at the same time I guarantee this part of the argument wouldn't even be discussed.

tgf wrote:
Yes but the force weapon only effects the MSS'd model, it does effect the rest of the squad that is no MSS'd making a decision for uncontrolled models.

Don't you know GK squads must activate their Force Weapons at the same time? So if 1 model is controlled via MSS and it activates Force, all models' Force Weapons get activated. So yes the MSS can make such decision for uncontrolled models.

copper.talos wrote:

tgf wrote:
Yes but the force weapon only effects the MSS'd model, it does effect the rest of the squad that is no MSS'd making a decision for uncontrolled models.

Don't you know GK squads must activate their Force Weapons at the same time? So if 1 model is controlled via MSS and it activates Force, all models' Force Weapons get activated. So yes the MSS can make such decision for uncontrolled models.

I have not seen this ruling, It only mentions librarians in the FAQ. If this is the case then maybe there is a better argument for burning smite with MSS.

It only mention librarians? Really? Let me refresh your memory:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model with a force weapon or a weapon which allows the wielder to inflict Instant Death with a successful Leadership test, can the Necron player force the enemy model to utilise this ability? (p81)
A: Yes.

It's always better to know the rules/faqs before you start making arguments...

Hehe this trick is best saved for a DLord with wraiths.

The wraiths would at least get their 3++ and it wont ID the DLord.

guesz i didnt re,ember the faq that way. i thought it specificly said 'ibrarian. oh well.

Ok, I see it two possible ways.
1) The controlled model uses smite, which forces the rest of his squad to smite. As the necron player has control and chooses to smite.
2) The squad chooses not to smite, so the necron player cannot choose to smite because it isn't a valid option, unless the whole unit smites, and the MSS doesn't provide control of other models.

I'd like to see it FAQ'd,
I would run necrons with #2 and let my opponents run option #1. I don't think it will come up all that often, so I'm not going to make a big fuss over it.

-Matt

I think I agree with Yak. If MSS work, either player may decide TO use Smite, presuming the models are all striking at the same Init. If the model suffering MSS is striking at a different Init for some reason, than whoever gets the first opportunity to choose (due to controlling the knight/s striking at higher Init) will get that choice.

 yakface wrote:

tgf wrote:

 yakface wrote:

OK found it.

Yes, it's an ability of the weapon, why would you not be able to use it?

I don't think you can use it because the whole squad has to do it, and you don't have control over the whole squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
'"All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolutions
smite setting at the same time.

This tells me that the guys that aren't MSS'd can refuse to use it and stop it from happening. There is nothing in MSS that suggests a single model can override the will of the entire squad. There is also nothing that suggests a single model can force the whole squad to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Probably needs and FAQ ruling, however I doubt one model can burn it for the whole squad.

What you're proposing would be correct if the rule said something like: "The Mace Mode can only be utilized in a phase where all models use it" or some such nonsense like that.

But the rule doesn't say that. It just says that all models must use [...] the Smite setting at the same time.

MSS gives the controlling player the option to use "any abilities and penalties from [the model's] close combat weapons (the controller of the MSS chooses which, if there is a choice)."

Using Smite Mode is a weapon ability and it is a choice, so the MSS player is free to choose it, and if he does the Smite rule forces the rest of the unit to use it as well.

The rule on page 62 says:

All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolution's smite setting at the same time.

At what point are MSS strikes resolved? I believe that happens separately and before init step. So no you can't use MSS to activate Smite per the rules. This is different from force weapons.

It happens when the model would normally swing during the unit steps.

The MSS test happens before Init pile-ins. If the model failed it, then at its normal Init, it deals d3 automatic hits to its own unit instead of attacking, and the Necron player makes all choices about what weapon if any will be used, and relating to that weapon. So the Necron player can activate a force weapon, etc. IIRC this decision is made at the usual time, so at the Init when the model strikes.

Ah yes confirmed MSS'd unit's strike on init step.

It occurs to me that this rule helps units like Wraiths with whip coils. If the Deathwing Knights aren't all on the same Init step for some reason it seems like Smite can't be used. Reactions?

 jadedknight wrote:
Ah yes confirmed MSS'd unit's strike on init step.

It occurs to me that this rule helps units like Wraiths with whip coils. If the Deathwing Knights aren't all on the same Init step for some reason it seems like Smite can't be used. Reactions?

Yeah, 'at the same time' is incredibly vague and needs to be FAQ'd because its open to interpretation. I do not think it means 'at the same initiative step', because as you point out if any models in the unit are swinging at a different Init step (due to Whip Coils, for example), then this would prevent the unit from using Smite Mode, which is pretty absurd.

Rather I think it just means all the models must choose to utilize Smite Mode at the same time. Meaning the CHOICE occurs at the same time even if the attacks end up being staggered by Initiative.