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I'll say this, and it is no reflection on Mark, or anyone. I'm just bummed out. I'm a fairly impatient person, and felt I was being a good boy, not even peeking into the closets to see where Santa had stashed the gifts. But now I just feel meh inside. Mark, you need not dignify this in no way with a response to devote time to this. This is all on me, not on you.

I just needed to air it out.

Yeah it is disappointing. The delay, but also the lack of "reparations" that WGF seem willing to consider. When I was under the impression that "something" might get done to make up for the 1.5 year+ delay I was sunshine and rainbows, but Mark clearing up that WGF don't seem interested in the idea sours me substantially on them. Not on DFG - Mark is a champ. I hope Mark continues with WGF as they produce imo the best plastics on the market when they have someone like Mark doing the designs (individually poseable fingers and toes Mark... honestly ; p) but there will definitely need to be very clear improvements to the whole process before further cash is forked out up front WRT to WGF if they're not going to make up for this delay somehow.

I know they had their troubles initially with the take-over, and this project is probably a money-sink in the short term due to lowballing the costs, but a 1.5 year delay with no compensation is hard to swallow. That compensation that most of us want is even just the ability to add more products to our pledge, which will not only make them more money in general, but more money by skipping the distributor and retailer cuts for the (relatively small theoretically) overhead of altering some pledges, even if done manually as it should all be stored in a database - with DB Admin as part of my job description, you can very easily do what would be required if the system was done well enough initially.

Shouldn't it be worth their while for instance in my case, to send a paypal invoice for 3xHanomags +Zeus things +60xValkir +3xCommand squds, including the KS listed shipping rates, to be shipped from WGF China with the box they'll already be sending? You'd think it would be worth some temp staff or extra over time for the increased margin on this alone, let alone the goodwilll it would generate. I know WGF aren't a retailer, they deal in bulk - but they're already doing the shipping of Aussie orders from WGF China. Combining 2 invoices into 1 order does not seem like a large overhead, especially as it's unlikely to be all *that* many of the backers going for it... just us vocal whiners I guess ; p

At this point with me I'm even further "gone" from where you all are. Though I would love to add product to my order(skipped wave three because I didn't think the timeline was feesble), I just have no plans on ever using these now. The game which has nothing to do with WGF is nowhere, an opposing force is at this rate four years away and not the force I would want anyway. Marks been good (great to begin with but poor lately) on follow up with what's happening and delay issues. I've got my army of big stompies, and GW has come to the rescue oddly enough with rules . Don't get me wrong if more leviathan scale stuff comes out then great, but I think too much was bitten off with the first kickstarter.

As for the other items still not released. What about doing a second kickstarter NOW. Even if the goal is just to fund another leviathan model or a tank, but offer all the wave 3 products as possible add ons. This would give a chance to get more money influx for mark, and give all the backers a chance to order more goodies at those prices or even slightly more. The molds are almost done and the second kickstarter could help pay off some of the fees associated with the first. We all know the first will eventually be completed, but if WGF could see how much potential there is for sales out there still, then maybe they would speed things up a little.

I can and do understand the frustration everyone is feeling but I think shouldering WGF with this is not correct either, They have spent over 5-10k of their money already on getting items here by air in wave 2 in order to help things move a little faster, this was an expense they were not obligated to but did so to help me and you out.

The KS collected far less than would have been needed if I purchased the molds at retail, by my estimation there is roughly $860,000.00 worth of mold work for this Kickstarter, add to this about $35- $40,000 in shipping costs and WGF has more than carried their share of the costs.

I do not take offence when I ask them to carry even more burden and they tell me that at this time, they cannot. It is not their responsibility to make things right between me and my backers. That is my job…. And unfortunately I am not in a position to make that happen for you. I asked WGF if they could do me a favor and help me out with these requests, they cannot and I completely understand why.

If you want to be upset with anyone, it should be me, the kickstarter was run by me the products are mine and the agreement was between you and me.

Ultimately though, the production is on them. And even allowing for stretch goal madness and lessons learned, it's incredibly behind with what we all now recognise as a likelihood of getting nothing in the full calendar year of 2014 becoming increasingly likely. BSing you (and by proxy, us) about the release quarters (not months, quarters) endlessly is only going to damage both their and your reputation and brands for the future.





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 Theophony wrote:

As for the other items still not released. What about doing a second kickstarter NOW. Even if the goal is just to fund another leviathan model or a tank, but offer all the wave 3 products as possible add ons. This would give a chance to get more money influx for mark, and give all the backers a chance to order more goodies at those prices or even slightly more. The molds are almost done and the second kickstarter could help pay off some of the fees associated with the first. We all know the first will eventually be completed, but if WGF could see how much potential there is for sales out there still, then maybe they would speed things up a little.

Seriously?

I don't know how well it might do, but I wouldn't touch something like this with a barge pole. Look at KD and SWM Tablescapes for consistency across WGF's manufacturing efficiency. Imagine the backlash, and not from the calm people like us here in this thread. (Though I would definitely make an endless string of shamefully negative jokes that might make HMBC's head implode with nerd raeg.)

Hm. Might be worthwhile, then.

Thanks for the insight into some of the things WGF has done for the project Mark above and beyond their initial float of credit. While it doesn't change the fact that they've hideously overbooked their manufacturing capability, it does help me feel like the DFG work wasn't dumped on a back burner the moment they landed some of that other work. Minor mitigation there I suppose, but better than nothing.

Az is correct though. The "optimism" they continue to project on the timelines is more the problem at this point. Same situation as KD:M; any date we're told is likely to slip to the point that Adam just stopped giving dates. Quality takes the time it takes, and I don't think anyone can call WGF's work slip-shod, but the constant moving the finish line is what gets to me. Things happen all the time to push plans back and I can certainly understand that, but to have it happen on a continual basis is worrying.

I'm also unfortunately in the same boat as RiTides; the projects I wanted the models for have long since fallen by the wayside. They're still very nice models and I'm not going to be sad to have them around, but until there's an actual game for them it'll be more for display than anything else.

It seems like WGF pre-Leviathans and post-Leviathans are two very different companies.

My timing/memory may be off, but I think Mark is getting the short end here due to...other things.

 Alpharius wrote:
It seems like WGF pre-Leviathans and post-Leviathans are two very different companies.

My timing/memory may be off, but I think Mark is getting the short end here due to...other things.

Like what?

my memory might also be off since its been years...but wasnt Mark the first / one of the first into WGF (of the recent companies to go to WGF?) Pretty crappy if he was one of the first of the recent boom into the WGF doors only to get jerked around due to WGF taking on too much business

WGF was doing models for Wyrd before Mark approached them with his Kickstarter plans. I don't know who else they were doing models for but DFG was certainly the one that opened the floodgates.

Some of the other business (eg kingdom death) actually provided funds to buy new/more machines so may not have had as much impact as you think although there will certiainly have been some

Wyrd has also gone from trying out a few things in plastic to a full scale switch to it both replacing old stuff and all their new stuff since the Dreamforge KS funded which will have needed more WGF time/machines

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It seems like WGF pre-Leviathans and post-Leviathans are two very different companies.

My timing/memory may be off, but I think Mark is getting the short end here due to...other things.

Like what?

Well:

ironicsilence wrote:my memory might also be off since its been years...but wasnt Mark the first / one of the first into WGF (of the recent companies to go to WGF?) Pretty crappy if he was one of the first of the recent boom into the WGF doors only to get jerked around due to WGF taking on too much business

Breotan wrote:WGF was doing models for Wyrd before Mark approached them with his Kickstarter plans. I don't know who else they were doing models for but DFG was certainly the one that opened the floodgates.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Some of the other business (eg kingdom death) actually provided funds to buy new/more machines so may not have had as much impact as you think although there will certiainly have been some

Wyrd has also gone from trying out a few things in plastic to a full scale switch to it both replacing old stuff and all their new stuff since the Dreamforge KS funded which will have needed more WGF time/machines

Of course I can't say for sure, but from what I can see, it certainly looks as if that, even though Mark was one of the first, he seems to have been dropped way down the priority list.

I think it's more about money talking. Mark showed everyone what they were capable of with good designs, but as he mentioned before the costs the molds would run were much higher than his kickstarter brought in. Groups like kingdom death brought in the tidal waves of funds so they take precedence as those $$$$ see true return on investment where DFGs $ might recoups over the long haul. Not absolutely sure about timing but once KD:M finished funding I think is when WGF moved into the larger facilities and got more people and equipment. So while mark was first between those two, WGF his floated a lot of the costs and has had to back burner mark in favor of the person with cash in hand. Is it fair to us who backed DFG, well the expected dates have come and gone but product is slowly trickling out. WGF is not the one to be upset with as they need to ensure they stay in business while waiting for the money to come back in on the models. So if they can get returns from multiple games KD:M and Wyrd, then float more of the mold costs for mark then I think they've done the correct thing.

All this is speculation on my end, but is also the reason I didn't order any wave three items, because I didn't know how mark was going to cover the costs of the molds for so many items in the KS.

I applaud Mark for his efforts and his mature attitude. His kits are some of the best on the market in any material.

That being said, I think this is a case of WGF being penny wise and pound foolish. Wyrd will never be more than a niche skirmish game. Kingdom Death, as nice as the miniatures are, will never be able to hit mass retail due to subject material. It will remain a niche (and a weird, dark, sad niche) product with a dedicated base of fans.

Dreamforge and Iron Core has the potential to be big. Dreamforge and Iron Core actually have a shadow of a chance of being really, really, big. GW does what, 250-300 million in revenue annually? Of everything that WGF is producing, only Iron Core could realistically hope to hit 25-30 million in revenue in the next decade. The sci-fi plastics market has big potential. Dreamforge stuff is useful for a variety of games and rulesets.

If WGF expedited the delivery of the remaining items, and even offered a modest discount at the store in order to regain some community trust and build enthusiasm, Mark could turn around the month after Wave 2 was delivered, and run a 1.5 million dollar KS campaign.

WGF is neglecting the one mega cash cow they've got for short term revenues from products that are destined to be niche forever.

 Theophony wrote:
I think it's more about money talking. Mark showed everyone what they were capable of with good designs, but as he mentioned before the costs the molds would run were much higher than his kickstarter brought in. Groups like kingdom death brought in the tidal waves of funds so they take precedence as those $$$$ see true return on investment where DFGs $ might recoups over the long haul.

One of the problems with this is that WGF have shot themselves in the foot by being so slow. Imagine how many Hanomags they could have shifted if they were actually out in time for the IG/AM codex from people who have now bought Rhinox instead. Same deal with the Widows. Cut, paste, and repeat with the other figures as their proxies go.


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 Gallahad wrote:
I applaud Mark for his efforts and his mature attitude. His kits are some of the best on the market in any material.

That being said, I think this is a case of WGF being penny wise and pound foolish. Wyrd will never be more than a niche skirmish game. Kingdom Death, as nice as the miniatures are, will never be able to hit mass retail due to subject material. It will remain a niche (and a weird, dark, sad niche) product with a dedicated base of fans.

Dreamforge and Iron Core has the potential to be big. Dreamforge and Iron Core actually have a shadow of a chance of being really, really, big. GW does what, 250-300 million in revenue annually? Of everything that WGF is producing, only Iron Core could realistically hope to hit 25-30 million in revenue in the next decade. The sci-fi plastics market has big potential. Dreamforge stuff is useful for a variety of games and rulesets.

If WGF expedited the delivery of the remaining items, and even offered a modest discount at the store in order to regain some community trust and build enthusiasm, Mark could turn around the month after Wave 2 was delivered, and run a 1.5 million dollar KS campaign.
WGF is neglecting the one mega cash cow they've got for short term revenues from products that are destined to be niche forever.

I disagree on Iron Core. I think it will be yet another stillborn/generally ignored ruleset. There's clearly not the manpower, resources or interest to make it into something big - along with every other "we make not-warhammer models but have our own game where they really belong for reals" ruleset. If anything, I think Mark should be working hard on something like getting his models turned into an official faction for DeadZone or even Warpath, in the same way that Mantic cooperate with Avatars of War and even sell their models on the Mantic Website:
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/avatars-of-war.html

I do agree with you on the models' potential - I think the models have/had a lot of potential to make a decent sized splash in the sci-fi gamespace - for those who can stomach space-not-nazi-(really!)-wehrmacht, anyway. Partnering with Mantic in some limited-but-official way would only help both companies, as they fill a niche/hole in one another's product ranges - hard plastic spacemans, vehicles and giant robots for Mantic, and an actual popular, released game with the guaranteed sales that it brings besides the pipe dream of Iron Core for DFG.

That's without getting into the nerdspoogeing of WGF making HIPS stuff for Mantic. The three-year turnaround would probably make it unworkable on that front, anyway.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
I can and do understand the frustration everyone is feeling but I think shouldering WGF with this is not correct either, They have spent over 5-10k of their money already on getting items here by air in wave 2 in order to help things move a little faster, this was an expense they were not obligated to but did so to help me and you out.

The KS collected far less than would have been needed if I purchased the molds at retail, by my estimation there is roughly $860,000.00 worth of mold work for this Kickstarter, add to this about $35- $40,000 in shipping costs and WGF has more than carried their share of the costs.

I do not take offence when I ask them to carry even more burden and they tell me that at this time, they cannot. It is not their responsibility to make things right between me and my backers. That is my job…. And unfortunately I am not in a position to make that happen for you. I asked WGF if they could do me a favor and help me out with these requests, they cannot and I completely understand why.

If you want to be upset with anyone, it should be me, the kickstarter was run by me the products are mine and the agreement was between you and me.

Out of curiosity (I dont know how appropriate a question this is, feel free to not respond if you don't feel like it) but what sort of agreement did you have with Wargames Factory, specifically regarding the financial side of all this? Are you the sole owner of the miniatures line or is it a split ownership type affair where you put up say half the costs and they did as well and they get a cut of the profits, etc?

Azazel - Are you at all familiar with whats going on with Iron Core? The ruleset has been in development (or at least a conceptualization of it, whether or not precinct omega carries that over remains to be seen), and promises to be something truly unique. Whether or not it turns into something successful is another story, but it has the potential, certainly moreso than the derivative/recycled crud that mantic keeps feeding us.

No, not really?

As much as I want to believe otherwise, so far, given what we've seen and know?

Azazelx's view appears to be more right than wrong.

Especially given the pace this thing is 'moving' at.

We really don't know much about Iron Core, except that the original 'draft' by Mark was very very different to whats out there, and that PrecinctOmega is developing the rules (at a glacial pace), and that some of the mechanics revealed by him (Of which there really haven't been that many) are also very different to whats out there.

Unfortunately, DFG is largely relegated to the role of yet another company that makes alternate models for 40k (although very nice ones) until such time as there are at least two opposing factions available to even play a game with. So, there's really no point in rushing rules out when there aren't two factions available to fight each other.

If the game was good enough and finally satisfied IronBovin's thirst for a balanced yet excruciatingly tactical game, then I'd have no problem using other companies' models/paper chits as proxies.

Big block of pink insulation foam as leviathans!!! RAwwrr!1!!!!!

I love how Alpharius' reply was very telegraphic... borderline cryptic.

Well, that is most certainly very true (unfortunately).

No offence ment but there is only one faction for this, if DFG wanted customers playing with there miniatures with there ruleset (how is it coming along? Any links for alpha/beta testing?) then they should of started with 4 factions with a small selection or starter set for each with a set of rules for a small skirmish game get people interested in the world and factions and build from there. As it is I look at these and think of GW stand ins and move on. I have a box set of the basic squad and they are lovely model kits, but I have no incentive to buy anymore as there are no rules system I can use for them. If there was no desire for a skirmish game to wet our appetite then DFG should of taken a leaf out of Mantics KoW book, get a few choices out for several factions then release your ruleset. I really like these kits but at this rate maybe in 3-4 years time there will be only two armies for a ruleset, which lests be honest if there are only two factions to choose from for a rule system it does not make for an interesting game.

I beg to respectfully differ. There is a reason Mantic's motto is "Mantic... almost." If do you need to look at more pictures of those armsmen (aptly named), go ahead.

Sure, I would love to have 4 forces, and I've been advocating that future releases follow a "Core infantry, core vehicle" model until we have more factions. But not at the cost of quality that some of the Mantic seem to suffer from.

Yeah, overtyrant I'm going to have to disagree as well, releasing a few models from a few different ranges wouldn't have done much for DFG IMO. In fact, I think it would have hindered the models usability as counts as in other games systems. With the current releases for the Eisenkern I can at least make a force almost entirely out of Eisenkern minis if I so choose. While not every possible option might be present, there are enough available that I could still come away with a viable force until any other potential 'holes' are filled.

Just because there isn't an IronCore Rule set out currently doesn't mean you cannot use these models as a cohesive force in other games. Yes, it's not IronCore, but there are multiple other rules sets to use until IC does come out. StarGrunt, Tomorrows War, FUBAR, Gruntz, and others.

I do wish there was a dedicated team working on the rules set, but that costs money, lots of money, and time.

Robey at Precinct Omega http://precinctomega.co.uk/wp/ is currently working on the rule set with Mark. Being as Mark isn't made of money and isn't paying for rules, it's going to take time.
Robey is making progress, and we should hopefully see some alpha rules hopefully by years end, if not by end of summer.

Mark has a considerable amount of history and fluff for the setting. Rules will come.

I'm sure if there were an independently wealthy gamers here, they would just love to dump a ton of money into Iron Core, both rules development and models. But.. it seems Mark has to work with his backers and with WGF to get the models done, get a rules set out, and try to recoup the money to pay off his considerable loans from WGF.

The problem isn't money, it's lack of product for people to purchase. Mark makes a stellar product but people can't throw money at a product line that doesn't exist. I've got plenty of money but nothing to buy yet.

I was originally very interested in the alien faction on which the free backer model was based on but can't even remember the name anymore because it's been so long. At this rate, we're looking at 3-5 years before the eisenkern troopers have anyone to fight from their own universe.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:I beg to respectfully differ. There is a reason Mantic's motto is "Mantic... almost." If do you need to look at more pictures of those armsmen (aptly named), go ahead.

Sure, I would love to have 4 forces, and I've been advocating that future releases follow a "Core infantry, core vehicle" model until we have more factions. But not at the cost of quality that some of the Mantic seem to suffer from.

I was not referring to there quality of miniatures but to how KoW came about, Mantic is getting to be a big company even if there quality is not there for some of there stuff (opinions may differ of course) they have great rulesets for what 4/5 games systems where you can multi purpose there models in 2 maybe 4 of them. Maybe DFG should have a motto then if Mantic have one, nah I won't it's disrespectful to the company, but they could have one.

chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, overtyrant I'm going to have to disagree as well, releasing a few models from a few different ranges wouldn't have done much for DFG IMO. In fact, I think it would have hindered the models usability as counts as in other games systems. With the current releases fr the Eisenkern I can at least make a force almost entirely out of Eisenkern minis if I so choose. While not every possible option might be present, there are enough available that I could still come away with a viable force until any other potential 'holes' are filled.

ski2060 wrote:Just because there isn't an IronCore Rule set out currently doesn't mean you cannot use these models as a cohesive force in other games. Yes, it's not IronCore, but there are multiple other rules sets to use until IC does come out. StarGrunt, Tomorrows War, FUBAR, Gruntz, and others.

I do wish there was a dedicated team working on the rules set, but that costs money, lots of money, and time.

Robey at Precinct Omega http://precinctomega.co.uk/wp/ is currently working on the rule set with Mark. Being as Mark isn't made of money and isn't paying for rules, it's going to take time.
Robey is making progress, and we should hopefully see some alpha rules hopefully by years end, if not by end of summer.

Mark has a considerable amount of history and fluff for the setting. Rules will come.

I'm sure if there were an independently wealthy gamers here, they would just love to dump a ton of money into Iron Core, both rules development and models. But.. it seems Mark has to work with his backers and with WGF to get the models done, get a rules set out, and try to recoup the money to pay off his considerable loans from WGF.

I think what's currently happening is hindering the company, how long are we going to have to wait for a second army? 2 years? Another 2 years for a third army? They could of at least have a small skirmish ruleset out with a taster for several factions. I like the look of there alien faction but what is the reliable timescale of these? I believe some people have already pointed out that what they where going to use there Eisenkern miniatures for has been and gone because of the wait. You need to have a good choice of factions for a ruleset to be viable, having the best ruleset out the with the best figures, but only one faction does not make for a viable option. Should of started small with more options then trying to do one at a time. I'm not interested in stand ins, im interested in a good ruleset with several factions worth of good models, I don't see this happening for DFG for a looooonnnnng time at this rate, which is a shame as I really want them to succeed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:
The problem isn't money, it's lack of product for people to purchase. Mark makes a stellar product but people can't throw money at a product line that doesn't exist. I've got plenty of money but nothing to buy yet.

I was originally very interested in the alien faction on which the free backer model was based on but can't even remember the name anymore because it's been so long. At this rate, we're looking at 3-5 years before the eisenkern troopers have anyone to fight from their own universe.

What agnosto said! Said it better then I did!

I can see that side. I would love to see the Shadokesh, and right behind them the Republic, as that faction is what I plan to actually play in IC.

Maybe going forward Mark and WGF can start small with a couple different factions, and advance from there.

Core units, Leviathan equivalents, and maybe a vehicle, for 2 factions. Then start adding in units over time.

ski2060 wrote:
I can see that side. I would love to see the Shadokesh, and right behind them the Republic, as that faction is what I plan to actually play in IC.

Maybe going forward Mark and WGF can start small with a couple different factions, and advance from there.

Core units, Leviathan equivalents, and maybe a vehicle, for 2 factions. Then start adding in units over time.

Completely agree, start of small for each faction to get people's intrest salivating, get a rule set out there for people to play with and wet there appetite and go from there, and I'll bet with DFG attention to detail the rulset and miniatures will be gorgeous and people will be all over them in a heartbeat!

What about metal & resin? Sure plasic is awesome, but can't ya do some starter troops for other factions the old fashioned way, and save the plastics for leviathans and vehicles for now?