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I still like that double barreled revolver. It's goofy, just a goofy I like.

I'm happy to see so much potential Russian-based goodness, but more so from Palmetto State Armory. The AK-based market has gone full slow lately, and not in a good way. The import restrictions on the better AK rifles has led to a ridiculous price jump.

The US needs factory-fresh AKs, either classic or modernized...but we don't need them at $1500-2300. There are too many companies trying to convince people that you can only have a reliable/accurate modernized AK if you spend crazy money, making them into boutique ultra-expensive rifles.

I think the big issues on the price points is that until very recently was imports being made on fully amortized machinery churning out enormous production runs with eastern european labor rates and decades of experience doing the same thing made for a product that simply could not be replicated at the same price point in the US with US labor rates and new tooling and QC/production teething issues on relatively limited production volumes. What might cost Romania $150 to make might legitimately cost $2-3k to make in the US from scratch in a totally new factory, particularly without large production runs (such as for military contracts). Parts kits were an option, but with the barrel ban and lots of surplus drying up costs are spiking on those as well.

As eastern Europe has developed, increased pay, invested in new tooling, developed new products, prices have risen. WASR's and Zastava's are $700 not $250 anymore, Bulgarian and Polish guns are $1k+ if you can get them, and Russian & Chinese guns are just straight gone. Meanwhile US producers (DDI, Century, IO, etc) have been trying for years to get costs down and lots of companies have failed doing so trying to match eastern european prices at the same quality. PSA bought the assets of some of those older companies (DDI) and are now in a position to take advantage of their learning experiences and appear to now be able to match expected AK pricing as european prices have risen.


PSA is definitely the hot thing in firearms engineering these days, they seem to be getting into everything and doing it well.

I'm hoping they can get their PSLs back into stock. I've wanted a PSL for a while.

Ive noticed a slight uptick in our costs and a lowering of availability for ARs from our distributors since the Virginia 2A rally. Funny how when something is threatened to be pulled, people rush out to "get theirs".

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Ive noticed a slight uptick in our costs and a lowering of availability for ARs from our distributors since the Virginia 2A rally. Funny how when something is threatened to be pulled, people rush out to "get theirs".

It's how America has always worked, there's a threat of a ban, so everyone runs out and hoards as many of them as they can get. It's why we still find caches of booze from Prohibition. Though I have to say, VA's new proposed law bans a lot more than ARs with how it's written. and allows seizures.

Yep, the Virginia stuff is downright tyrannical..it's not the average stupid legislation.

So is this legit? Or a trap?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/854858128

Allegedly its an underbarrel 37mm launcher that is NOT a DD. No ATF paperwork needed.

Website of the company that makes it also claims as much.

https://www.exoticammo.com/Tac-D-37mm-Underbarrel-Launcher_p_107.html

37mm launchers are legal all day long. Grenades are 40mm, so the bore is small enough this isn't really even a weapon, it can't chamber any existing weapon round. It's ultimately a flare gun, really. LMT has been selling them for years.

They sell an adapter to fire smaller flares, shotgun size - and the adapter is also cut to not allow a full size shotgun shell, so it too is not a firearm nor does it make a firearm when so installed in said launcher.

The concerns you have are more along the lines of your locality's specific pyrotechnic weirdness mixed with, I am guessing, burn\flare prohibitions in dry areas.

Huh. I was sure that 37mm was firmly in DD territory and that there were 37mm grenades. I thought anything greater than .50 was a DD unless it was a shotgun that had a sporting purpose.

Probably illegal in CA anyway though.

There is no ammo in that caliber, so it's not a "weapon" - it's not expelling what would legally be a projectile. Otherwise roman candles and most firework mortars would also be DD's.

Hell, aren't paintball guns like .68" or so?



Edit: The ATF wrote a much lengthier explanation saying the same thing but using many more words.

Of course, as you noted, what is federally legal may have tighter state and local restrictions.

I watched a video (sorry no link) about a new round and rifle combo. They are calling the round a 500 Blackout. It is basically a .338 Lapua casing necked out to 50 caliber with an 850 grain projectile. The gun uses a lot of AR components (proprietary magazine) and is semi-auto.


So, it looks cool, but I am wondering what it would be good for. Quick plugging a bear at medium to close range?

Well yeah, but paintball guns aren't using exploding gas to get launched.

Anyway, did some digging. They are legal in CA. But to mount them on a firearm it needs to be a fixed magazine firearm that you disassemble to release the mag. If its the standalone version its also fine.

I could be spicy and stick it on my Mosin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I watched a video (sorry no link) about a new round and rifle combo. They are calling the round a 500 Blackout. It is basically a .338 Lapua casing necked out to 50 caliber with an 850 grain projectile. The gun uses a lot of AR components (proprietary magazine) and is semi-auto.


So, it looks cool, but I am wondering what it would be good for. Quick plugging a bear at medium to close range?

That would definitely be a specialized hunting caliber. Moose, Elk, Bear, etc...

Though I'm not sure what you'd really gain other than "RAARRG 50 CAL!". .338 Lapua is already plenty for anything on this planet.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well yeah, but paintball guns aren't using exploding gas to get launched.

The NFA specifies: Any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may readily be converted to expel a projectile, by the action of an explosive or other propellant,

So the reason none of these things are DDs isn't the mechanism by which they are expelled, but what they aren't (weapons) and to a lesser extent, what they are expelling (paintballs or flares). You load your 37mm launcher with a flare and a half pound of nails, you now have a DD.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I could be spicy and stick it on my Mosin.

Nyet! Rifle is fine!

Which I find them explicitly saying non-lethal rounds are DDs is weird.

Its fine for me to have a real gun, but if I have a beanbag launcher attached to it it is a DD! Sure, beanbag rounds hurt but they're still just beanbags...

Same logic behind banning bayonet lugs. All those bayonettings needed to be curbed eh?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Which I find them explicitly saying non-lethal rounds are DDs is weird.

Its fine for me to have a real gun, but if I have a beanbag launcher attached to it it is a DD! Sure, beanbag rounds hurt but they're still just beanbags...

Same logic behind banning bayonet lugs. All those bayonettings needed to be curbed eh?

It's been a while, but I think the actual stats are that there have only been 3 murders with bayonets (while attached to a gun) in the last 100 years in the US.

The laws mentioning bayonet lugs aren't intended to prevent bayonettings, any more than the laws requiring abortion providers show a woman the video of an ultrasound or to have hallways x wide or to have admitting privileges are actually intended to enhance women's health. They're all ways of chipping away at a right - banning weapons with bayonet lugs allows a roundabout ban of whole heaps of "military style" rifles.

Between talking about the "tyranny of Virginia gun laws" and the wisdom of how gun control laws are written, we're functionally discussing gun control in general - an unambiguously political topic - we seriously endanger a 7 year running thread.

The reason this thread has survived despite how corrosive the discourse between some of us has been on other topics has been that when someone pokes in here and asks "wHy dO yOu aMeRiCaNs nEeD aLl tHeM gUns aNyWaY", we've all immediately responded in a strong, unified voice that we don't discuss gun politics here, and it's been true.

Asking about why so and so isn't a DD is a great question, but then expanding into talking about how dumb the NFA\state gun laws are leads to the greasiest slope.

Just my 2 cents, you guys do what you will

 Ouze wrote:
The laws mentioning bayonet lugs aren't intended to prevent bayonettings, any more than the laws requiring abortion providers show a woman the video of an ultrasound or to have hallways x wide or to have admitting privileges are actually intended to enhance women's health. They're all ways of chipping away at a right - banning weapons with bayonet lugs allows a roundabout ban of whole heaps of "military style" rifles.

Between talking about the "tyranny of Virginia gun laws" and the wisdom of how gun control laws are written, we're functionally discussing gun control in general - an unambiguously political topic - we seriously endanger a 7 year running thread.

The reason this thread has survived despite how corrosive the discourse between some of us has been on other topics has been that when someone pokes in here and asks "wHy dO yOu aMeRiCaNs nEeD aLl tHeM gUns aNyWaY", we've all immediately responded in a strong, unified voice that we don't discuss gun politics here, and it's been true.

Asking about why so and so isn't a DD is a great question, but then expanding into talking about how dumb the NFA\state gun laws are leads to the greasiest slope.

Just my 2 cents, you guys do what you will

Alternative offered:

http://otzone.proboards.com/thread/7483/control-becasue-gets-buried-politics?page=5

Though, atm a lot of other long running threads are also getting shut down for pretty much the same thing. We've been barreling toward my prediction coming true again, but until the mods get upset about it enough to reopen OT politics or start remembering that they're supposed to send people to wasteland to talk about it rather than just lock the threads...well...

I just bought .40 dies so I can reload for my P944. Funny thing I learned was that 10mm and .40 auto use the same bullets, just different cases.

Yup, .40 is just a cut down 10mm, FBI wanted to move up from 9mm after the Miami-Dade shootout (blaming the equipment instead of...everything else) but then found 10mm was a wee bit toasty and people had trouble qualifying with it, and in the process of toning that down came up with 40S&W and ironically basically coming back with something equivalent to a very hot 9mm

IIRC you can shoot 40S&W out of some 10mm guns.

Yeah, and .40 is finally being ditched by a lot of departments. The cost/recoil/reduced capacity hasn't been worth the supposed benefits (which are slight to non-existent). I was always frustrated with .40 because my old duty gun was in that chambering. It was small, relatively low-capacity and we shot extremely hot ammo out of it (to ensure function due to our job being in the desert and we were frequently dirtied up). That made for a super snappy and unfun gun to shoot. I was able to shoot it fine during quals but I shot all of my personal 9mm handguns far better.

10 years after I left, they've now just gone to a Glock in 9mm. They're not the only agency I've seen do that either. I highly support that change, particularly because the non-shooters in our agency (i.e. agents who simply didn't put an emphasis on learning to really use their firearm) suffered exponentially worse than those of us who shot a lot and went to the range every week, etc. A lot of the older agents had trouble going from their old double/single Berettas to the new HKs we carried (though the .40 actually broke many of the Beretta frames - I was amazed how many guns were retired due to frame cracks on the Berettas).

Overall I suspect the 9mm Glock (I think it's bizarrely named Glock 45...the new 9mm service model?) will likely be better for most agents.

 Elbows wrote:
I was always frustrated with .40 because my old duty gun was in that chambering. It was small, relatively low-capacity and we shot extremely hot ammo out of it (to ensure function due to our job being in the desert and we were frequently dirtied up). That made for a super snappy and unfun gun to shoot. I was able to shoot it fine during quals but I shot all of my personal 9mm handguns far better.

I agree 100%. When I was first looking for a carry gun, I looked at .40 because on paper, it looks perfect - little more energy than 9mm, little more carry capacity than .45acp. In practice I too found it a very unpleasant round to shoot and fell back to 9mm.

I generally warn people away from .40, particularly new shooters, unless they have some strong reason to adopt it (maybe they're doing local law enforcement and can/must provide their own gun and it must be in .40 for the department etc.). Now in basic "retail" ammo it was far more forgiving. But the duty stuff we shot was straight up miserable (we had a crap trigger too...so overall it was just an unpleasant gun to shoot).

At the academy we did our first 1000-1500 rounds with softer shooting ammo, and then one day we walked in...loaded up (out of different ammo boxes than normal) and were suddenly made aware of how snappy our actual duty ammo would be. Unpleasant surprise.

I've actually liked the .40, but that might just be because I'm a 6'5" tall, large build guy and it take a lot of recoil for me to find anything unreasonable. I also like it because I have a couple carbines in .40 that use the same magazines as my pistols. I think .40 gets a little more out of the 16 inch barrels than the 9mm does.

As for 9mm and .40 S&W, has anyone else noticed that there seems to be a number of manufacturers out there now making revolvers in 9mm and .40? Also a few making 10mm auto revolvers. Some of these don't even require moon clips. It's nifty and all, but I'm not quite sure I understand this trend.

I've seen a handful of normal pistol caliber revolvers...which is indeed a bit bizarre. I mean, fewer ammo types is fewer ammo types. I can see an advantage if you're doing a concealed carry small revolver, so you can shrink the cylinder?

As I've said a few times in this thread, I've been wanting a revolver for quite some time, and I've been leaning towards .357. However, that means investing in a new caliber. As weird as I think .40S&W revolvers are, I might just go that way to keep from buying more ammo.

Really, this is the only thing I can think of other than the "wow, cool!" factor. Don't get me wrong here, I'd appreciate a .357 that could shoot 9mm with moon clips, or a 45 colt that could also shoot 45ACP. If I were just getting into pistols there is no way I'd ever intentionally buy a revolver in a automatic caliber.

If you're considering .357 vs another caliber, I personally find that .357 is magnificent out of a longer barreled heavier revolver, and increasingly begins to imitate a squirmy flash-bang the smaller and shorter you get.

I load my LCR with .38's

I've got no idea how .40 does out of a revolver however personally.

Anything is pretty "okay" out of a revolver, until you get into the .500 and .700 Turbo Nitro Express Unlimited bla bla bla....or you get a sub 12 oz. airweight thing. The lack of a cycling slide should make most any common caliber pretty palatable.

Question for the team.

I've wanted a CZ Scorpion Evo 3 s2 w/ brace pretty much since I saw it. Now they seem to be readily available.

On the other hand, i hear tell on the internets that PSA is about to be putting out some MP5 clones.

You guys think the CZ is worth getting, or should I wait to see what the PSA stuff is like?

Difficulty: the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 s2 w/brace appears to have been discontinued for some reason. So I need to decide sight unseen, most likely. I don't know how long until they dry up.

 Ouze wrote:
Question for the team.

I've wanted a CZ Scorpion Evo 3 s2 w/ brace pretty much since I saw it. Now they seem to be readily available.

On the other hand, i hear tell on the internets that PSA is about to be putting out some MP5 clones.

You guys think the CZ is worth getting, or should I wait to see what the PSA stuff is like?

Difficulty: the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 s2 w/brace appears to have been discontinued for some reason. So I need to decide sight unseen, most likely. I don't know how long until they dry up.

I take it that either way this will just be a "fun gun"? If so, go with whatever you think looks coolest.

That being said, I do like the MP5. It's on my list of "Guns of Die Hard" collection list. I have every gun from that movie except an MP5 and a Styer Aug. I do have an HK91 and HK93, which are basically the same gun, just longer. I have been pleased with them. A little heavy, but ridiculously reliable. It gives you the feeling you can run it over with a car and keep on going. I don't have the same feeling about the Scorpion. Also, I don't know what the aftermarket accessory market looks like for the Scorpion, but the MP5 has some neat stuff out there.