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Was that a Warren Zafron reference?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Was that a Warren Zafron reference?

Zevon. "Stay away from him, he'll pull your lungs out, Jim! I'd like to meet his tailor."

Which brings us to the topic of silver bullets, I suppose.

Kinda pricey, and they don't take the rifling very well.

Besides the price, it is that silver shrinks a bit when cast. It would be very difficult to make a silver bullet that was the correct size for modern firearms without using a CNC machine. That is done for premium solid copper projectiles a lot though, so you could do it as a special order. You'd be looking at ~$40-50 bullets tho. Which honestly if vampires were real wouldn't be a horrible pricepoint...

Once you did that, silver would be fine as a projectile. It's only slightly softer than copper(2.8 vs 3.0 Mohs) and a bit harder than lead(1.5) so it would grip the rifling just fine, again assuming you have CNC'd a bullet to the proper dimensions and not cast it.

It would be easier to make silver bullets for guns that don't use metallic cartridges. There are hand-presses for making round and conical bullets out of pure lead just by squishing it into the mould, and with some muscle power you could do it with silver too and not have to worry about the shrinkage of casting.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Besides the price, it is that silver shrinks a bit when cast. It would be very difficult to make a silver bullet that was the correct size for modern firearms without using a CNC machine. That is done for premium solid copper projectiles a lot though, so you could do it as a special order. You'd be looking at ~$40-50 bullets tho. Which honestly if vampires were real wouldn't be a horrible pricepoint...

Incendiary ammo is much more cost-effective.

Once you did that, silver would be fine as a projectile. It's only slightly softer than copper(2.8 vs 3.0 Mohs) and a bit harder than lead(1.5) so it would grip the rifling just fine, again assuming you have CNC'd a bullet to the proper dimensions and not cast it.

The info I had was someone who used cast silver, which would have been the norm unless you think the Lone Ranger or Van Helsing had access to CNC machines.

It would be easier to make silver bullets for guns that don't use metallic cartridges. There are hand-presses for making round and conical bullets out of pure lead just by squishing it into the mould, and with some muscle power you could do it with silver too and not have to worry about the shrinkage of casting.

At that point, just use the cool silver nitrate round from Underworld.

Just bought a Browning auto 5 the other day. 340 euros, gunsmith tax accounted for. I still need to get a hold of a sling and the attachment but that's quite easy to find on the internet (naturabuy for the win) around 50 euros.

That's quite a decent price here in France really.

I'm gonna use it for short range in my shooting range, wanted to go with the AK but they weren't too stoked about this.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pretty sure I saw a Spitfire doing what I must assume was a test flight the other day.

The genuine joys of living on the Kent Coast!

When I lived in York I was lucky enough to regularly see the last flying Vulkan bomber practicing for airshows (it was based on an old Bomber Command airstrip just outside York where the air museum is). I saw it for a couple of years until it finally retired to a museum for safety reasons.

Absolutely majestic vehicle, yet so terrifying in potential armament. Fascinating to watch such a large plane manoeuvre so well.

Re: silver bullets: depends on how the magic works. Do you need a solid silver bullet to follow the rules of the magic system or can you just use silver core/tip rounds for a normal gun? Fill the tip of a hollow point with a bit of silver (or a splinter of wood for a stake, etc) and good hunting.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Re: silver bullets: depends on how the magic works. Do you need a solid silver bullet to follow the rules of the magic system or can you just use silver core/tip rounds for a normal gun? Fill the tip of a hollow point with a bit of silver (or a splinter of wood for a stake, etc) and good hunting.

This reminds me of a World of Darkness adventure I saw back in the 1990s. The players gradually learn that there are werewolf hunters about and one of the clues is a rudimentary range where the backstop (a large stump) is filled with silver bullets.

You know, because silver is dirt cheap, prefect for target practice and why bother to recover it once the boomstick went bang?

A classic example of something with just enough knowledge of guns to beclown themselves.

Depends on how rare silver actually is. IRL its actually not that rare for a precious metal.

Or, more importantly, how well paid werewolf hunters are in the setting. If you're rich enough it's not worth bothering to recover the silver.

Question.
Does any one know if 60 round ar15 Magazines are the same size as AK47 Magazines ?
My google-fu has failed me.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Depends on how rare silver actually is. IRL its actually not that rare for a precious metal.

Silver isn't rare, but it is expensive if you're loading a lot of rounds. And then using them for practice.

The simple expedient of setting up a shot trap would have made the scene less silly. I recall when we read it we tried to calculate how much money they basically left there for someone else to pick up. Not quite lighting cigars with $100 bills, but very close to it.

 warhead01 wrote:
Question.
Does any one know if 60 round ar15 Magazines are the same size as AK47 Magazines ?
My google-fu has failed me.

Which 60 round AR mags? Which AK mags?

There are 60 round single drum mags and 60 round quad-stack mags.

If you are comparing them to a normal 30 round AK mag they are quite a bit bigger and heavier, though length-wise sticking out of the gun the AK mag is still a little longer.


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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Depends on how rare silver actually is. IRL its actually not that rare for a precious metal.

Silver isn't rare, but it is expensive if you're loading a lot of rounds. And then using them for practice.

The simple expedient of setting up a shot trap would have made the scene less silly. I recall when we read it we tried to calculate how much money they basically left there for someone else to pick up. Not quite lighting cigars with $100 bills, but very close to it.

Well, they may have been planning on returning eventually.

Plus using the silver bullets to practice with isn't as silly as it seems. If you used other ammunition to practice it would perform differently to the silver bullets just due to different ballistic properties(weight, etc...)

Not that practicing with other rounds would be unrealistic. Lots of people don't practice with their carry loads, instead using cheaper ball ammo. But you should practice with the ammo you carry with and might actually use in a situation.

And I would imagine that werewolf hunters would probably need to charge a lot of money simply to cover the costs of ammo, plus the risk factors involved.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Silver isn't rare, but it is expensive if you're loading a lot of rounds. And then using them for practice.

The simple expedient of setting up a shot trap would have made the scene less silly. I recall when we read it we tried to calculate how much money they basically left there for someone else to pick up. Not quite lighting cigars with $100 bills, but very close to it.

It depends on how well-funded werewolf hunters are. If it's like the US navy routinely dumping expensive missiles in the ocean because of maximum landing weight limits then worrying about used ammunition is for poor people. If they're struggling to make a decent wage then yeah, they should be recovering the silver.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Silver isn't rare, but it is expensive if you're loading a lot of rounds. And then using them for practice.

The simple expedient of setting up a shot trap would have made the scene less silly. I recall when we read it we tried to calculate how much money they basically left there for someone else to pick up. Not quite lighting cigars with $100 bills, but very close to it.

It depends on how well-funded werewolf hunters are. If it's like the US navy routinely dumping expensive missiles in the ocean because of maximum landing weight limits then worrying about used ammunition is for poor people. If they're struggling to make a decent wage then yeah, they should be recovering the silver.

The US government is uniquely profligate. I'm too lazy to research 90s silver prices, punch it in to a constant dollar calculator and determine what it would be today.

But I have just enough energy to see that submachinegun (pistol) ammo would be something silly like $5 per round just for the silver content alone. That's nonsense on stilts.

As to training vs carry, it isn't difficult to find a cheaper proxy that has the same point of impact (or one that is consistent so you can adjust for it) as your carry ammo.

It was clear from the way it was written that the "hunters" were a bunch of bubbas shooting up a stump in anticipation of an ambush, and the writer had no idea exactly how much cash was being squandered.

I should mention that the game had extremely abstract combat rules, so that level of detail ("Their point of aim will be 2 inches lower at 25 yards") would have been wildly inappropriate.

It was someone who knew just enough about guns to make a funny mistake.

Why not use a jacketed hollowpoint with a silver core?

The ballistics won't be that much different from a standard jacketed hollowpoint, so you could use those for practice.

Weirdly, I've been thinking about this recently since I'm working on a story where a wizard uses an enchanted Red Nine for personal defense.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Why not use a jacketed hollowpoint with a silver core?

That's what I suggested earlier, and it depends on how the magic works. Is a "silver bullet" a bullet of pure silver or does any quantity of silver magically interfere with the werewolf magic and destroy it on contact? Does a "stake through the heart" have a minimum size for the magic to consider it a valid attack, or does a tiny splinter delivered by a rifle shot through the heart count? Or perhaps it's all a moot point because there is a sacred and unbreakable agreement between the forces of Good and Evil that neither side will use modern technology even if it theoretically could work. Etc. It's all magic so it has no single correct answer, it's just a question of what theme and aesthetic elements you want to have for your story/setting.

Silver as a cure/ward against the supernatural may well stem from handwavium explanations for its now known antibacterial properties.

If so? Then one could argue the greater the volume of silver, the hurtier it is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Silver as a cure/ward against the supernatural may well stem from handwavium explanations for its now known antibacterial properties.

If so? Then one could argue the greater the volume of silver, the hurtier it is.

It has been reported that the 20-lb Parrott muzzle loading rifle's silver ammunition was 100% effective against all targets, living and unliving, up to 2,000 yards.

Of course, the subsequent development of breach-loading artillery resulted in even better performance, and it was noted that as the weight of shell increased, the required silver content was reduced to only a few grains.

That would certainly represent one end of the Harry Potter to Harry Dresden scale of technology vs. magic.

And, if Supernatural taught us anything?

A woodchipper seems to beat anything!

What about the ole, sink them to the ground of the sea/ lake?

Not Online!!! wrote:
What about the ole, sink them to the ground of the sea/ lake?

Not really firearm-related, unless they're anchored with a spear gun or something.

Since we're on the topic, my take on vampires (The Vampires of Michigan, visit www.ahlloyd.com to buy your copy today!) is that they regenerate very fast, don't like sunlight, but sufficient trauma (like blowing them up) does the trick. Severed body parts stay severed, and while the vampire code prohibits unlawful execution, cutting ears/fingers off is something of a gray area.

And it leaves a very lasting reminder.

Lots of guns in that book, btw. One of the protagonists uses a Manurhin revolver to deadly effect.

Speaking of Manurhin, anyone own any? In addition to the iconic revolvers, for a time they made Walther PPs. Some say the quality was better than the ones made in Germany because Walther's QC people were total pricks, looking for any excuse to fail one.

Well the Winchesters did chain an immortal Doctor who had to keep replacing worn out body parts in a fridge then bury him in the middle of nowhere, so that kinda counts?

Also as per World of Darkness, the trouble with shooting Vampires is their bodies, being dead, are naturally trickier to inflict damage on, unless you’re targeting the head or limbs. Certainly they’re not going to bleed out or go into shock.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
What about the ole, sink them to the ground of the sea/ lake?

Not really firearm-related, unless they're anchored with a spear gun or something.

Since we're on the topic, my take on vampires (The Vampires of Michigan, visit www.ahlloyd.com to buy your copy today!) is that they regenerate very fast, don't like sunlight, but sufficient trauma (like blowing them up) does the trick. Severed body parts stay severed, and while the vampire code prohibits unlawful execution, cutting ears/fingers off is something of a gray area.

And it leaves a very lasting reminder.

Lots of guns in that book, btw. One of the protagonists uses a Manurhin revolver to deadly effect.

Speaking of Manurhin, anyone own any? In addition to the iconic revolvers, for a time they made Walther PPs. Some say the quality was better than the ones made in Germany because Walther's QC people were total pricks, looking for any excuse to fail one.

I've got a manurhin 88 in 357, it's a great looking pistol that I got second hand from armurerie de la bourse, but it's a bitch to take aim with and I can't seem to lower my aim. Otherwise it's a fun gun.

I know a guy in my shooting range who owns a defect manurhin 73, because it's got only 5 cartridges, the last emplacement is broken. However, the gun itself is incredibly comfortable, notably by 357 metrics, great accuracy and a real charm to look at.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:Speaking of Manurhin, anyone own any? In addition to the iconic revolvers, for a time they made Walther PPs. Some say the quality was better than the ones made in Germany because Walther's QC people were total pricks, looking for any excuse to fail one.

My wife has a Manurhin P1.



There's a bit of interesting history behind the Manurhin manufacture of Walther firearms; this one has the flower marking on the trigger guard indicating acceptance by the West Berlin police. It's a really nice handgun, just a bit archaic in using single-stack mags, and the frames are known to crack if shot extensively on 9x19mm NATO or commercial +P ammo.

I almost bought one a while ago. After the second world war manurhin started making copies of P38, PP/PPK and long barrelled short version in both 7,65 and 22lr.

Another gun I almost bought but finally prefered sto skip if favor of a Saiga MK103 because spare parts are difficult to get is a Sig Manurhin. When the french army first intervened in Libanon, their MAT49, MAS and other stuff were all outgunned by the AKM. In a rush, before the FAMAS program actually gave results, it was decided to strike some sort of agreements with SIG to produce their guns under license.

They were first and formost handed over to paratroopers.

Civilian versions in 222 or 243 were also made, seperated from military 223. The one I almost bought was in 222 with bipods but no optic ready mount.

Sadly, manurhin was sold to saudis a while ago, and the production of mr73 is now carried out by italian (I think?) firm Chapuis guns.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I almost bought one a while ago. After the second world war manurhin started making copies of P38, PP/PPK and long barrelled short version in both 7,65 and 22lr.

Germany was occupied and its armaments industries shut down. Manurhin took over Walther's contracts and produced licensed copies of their work. The P1 was a product-improved P38 for the Bundeswehr. As I said above, the story is that Walther's people were severely pissed about all this, so they nit-picked the quality control, which had the unintended result of ensuring that Manurhin weapons are actually of superior quality to the subsequent German-made versions.

Sadly, manurhin was sold to saudis a while ago, and the production of mr73 is now carried out by italian (I think?) firm Chapuis guns.

Italy has some excellent firearms manufacturers, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

One thing I do lament is the collapse of national firearms manufacturing. Everyone got onto the band wagon that "just-in-time delivery" was the way to go and the lowest bidder should win, and now a bunch of excellent companies are gone.

Spain used to make very cool, affordable firearms.

Contrast that with the UK, whose domestic firearms production peaked in 1913. I think they were the only country that was still relying on revolvers in WW II. Even China knew that auto-loaders were the way to go, and I think it's funny that the Brits ended up adopting the Hi Power because the SOE types saw the Inglis and demanded a few of their own.

It's not so much that Italy is bad at doing guns, heck not at all, but more that as a french, I'm sad that such symbol of a gun as the mr73 is no longer actually french.

I've never seen a Chapuis made 73 so I can't tell.

France has always had a very decent weapon and cartridges industry, until they decided to stop it which has had catastrophic consequences for the economy, participating heavily in destroying french industry, and the army, which is now in perpetual trouble when trying to get a decent weapon at an affordable cost because poor.

The FAMAS is really just a great gun, the optical mount version is proprietary so it's a bit tedious to get optics on it, but boy that's a great gun: well balanced, short, light, precise, controls are confortable... Only downside is that the trigger is a bit heavy, since it's bullpup, but that remains totally valid once used to.

I wish I could find a civilian FAMAS to buy but those where almost all handed over to you in the US, you lucky Yankees .

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
It's not so much that Italy is bad at doing guns, heck not at all, but more that as a french, I'm sad that such symbol of a gun as the mr73 is no longer actually french.

I hear ya. French arms are pretty rare here in the States, and ammo is hard to come by. I think that most of what we have actually was sent as aid to the Spanish Second Republic, was captured by Franco, and sold to Interarms in the late 50s. Maybe some came back with GIs, but I think they were too busy lugging Lugers and Mausers to bother with Lebels.

(My great-grandfather was part of the AEF in 1918, fought in the Argonne and was subsequently part of the Army of Occupation. He came back with two duffel bags stuffed with, er, things he found, but they disappeared before he died.)

I wish I could find a civilian FAMAS to buy but those where almost all handed over to you in the US, you lucky Yankees .

The combination of our armies being staffed by kleptomaniacs and our population insatiably hungry for things that go BOOM, is why we've got a lot of gun stuff.

Not only that, there's a significant industry to support those old weapons, as in new-manufacture replacement parts. Last time I checked, there are actual Mosin and Mauser replacement barrels being made.