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I shot the HK416 we have a couple of times, it is precise, but handling is cancerous due to poor weight repartition and it breaks continuously. Charging handles get stuck, barrels split, buttons fly... A bit of sand or mud kills it, double feed is almost unmanageable without a knife or tool to extract cartridges, and magazines do not attach correctly half the time.


Maybe it's just our version, but heck it is an absolute catastrophe.

 Slowroll wrote:
In the US they are usually grandfathered.

If the pistol brace ban or the bump stock ban are any indication of how the current ATF works, nothing will be grandfathered. You'll have to destroy the newly illegal firearm, turn it in to your local LEOs, or maybe pay to register it and get a tax stamp (which also makes it difficult to ever legally transfer, and difficult to legally cross state lines with). Otherwise you'll risk federal weapons charges and lose your right to ever own a weapon again.

EDIT: You can also risk holding out and hoping the courts tell the ATF to pound sand, but again, that is a risk.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I shot the HK416 we have a couple of times, it is precise, but handling is cancerous due to poor weight repartition and it breaks continuously. Charging handles get stuck, barrels split, buttons fly... A bit of sand or mud kills it, double feed is almost unmanageable without a knife or tool to extract cartridges, and magazines do not attach correctly half the time.

Maybe it's just our version, but heck it is an absolute catastrophe.

Sounds like terrible quality control, because the core platform is solid and HK is known for quality work.

As for the US regulatory environment, while I don't want to get embroiled in a (forbidden) political discussion, it is important to understand the difference in American law between actual laws (that is, passed by elected legislatures and signed by an elected executive) and regulatory law, which is promulgated by agencies on relying on delegated powers.

The latter are much more easily disposed of in court challenges.

I will also refer people to the thread in this forum on American political jurisdictions, because the federal government has limited direct authority in peoples' everyday lives. Marijuana is still illegal under federal law but many states (including the one in which I reside) have legalized it, and it is sold openly in brick-and-mortar shops without any federal interference.

Interesting. France is managed differently as it is a centralised state with little to no variation on gun laws across the country, if anything they would be temporary limitations, bans of transportation, or longer wait to be granted category B authorisation (see above).

Rumour has it that it is not so much quality control than buying a cheap version with low quality materials. I can't say, but I can assure you the gun sucks. Which surprised me a lot because I also read outstanding feedback about it.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I shot the HK416 we have a couple of times, it is precise, but handling is cancerous due to poor weight repartition and it breaks continuously. Charging handles get stuck, barrels split, buttons fly... A bit of sand or mud kills it, double feed is almost unmanageable without a knife or tool to extract cartridges, and magazines do not attach correctly half the time.


Maybe it's just our version, but heck it is an absolute catastrophe.

Before the Great Boating Accident I had the civilian version and never had any issues. PMAGS and HK and Lancer all fit in and fed correctly, never had a charging handle issue, and probably put 1000-1200 rounds through before it got a good cleaning other than a quick bore snake and spraying bolt with CLP. Piston guns tend to be heavier than their DI counterparts, but the weight on mine seems balanced. Honestly, loved it.

Seems to confirm we probably just bought low end batches then. Spare parts are also tedious to get because deliveries are not always on time so restock is often delayed.

HK stock of parts is crap, unless you're ordering through a USASOC unit. At least HK USA (HK in Germany might be different) never has a lot of spare parts in stock.

I didn't know that, thanks for pointing out. Thought it was an isolated issue

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Interesting. France is managed differently as it is a centralised state with little to no variation on gun laws across the country, if anything they would be temporary limitations, bans of transportation, or longer wait to be granted category B authorisation (see above).

Just to give an example, there are states where no permit is necessary to carry a concealed firearm on your person, and if the firearm is purchased from a private citizen, there is no record of its transfer. Other states allow carry, but have a training and registration requirement. Until recently, some states prohibited concealed carry altogether, but that was recently ruled illegal (or, in American vernacular, "unconstitutional," which is the ultimate form of illegality).

Rumour has it that it is not so much quality control than buying a cheap version with low quality materials. I can't say, but I can assure you the gun sucks. Which surprised me a lot because I also read outstanding feedback about it.

Are you talking about weapon parts not made by HK but in accord with HK's design? We have tons of AR-15 manufacturers, and some are less than stellar.

I get your explanation. There exists an association in France known as ARPAC (association for the re-establishment of citizen gun carry) which demands the return of that long gone right under conditions of training and registration, to allow conceal carry for a number of citizen, so that in any case of aggression, there would be a reasonable chance that an armed citizen would be able to intervene. This is kind of going nowhere at the moment but it exists nonetheless.

As for HK part I don't now who actually produces what, apart from gun barrels that are made in France somewhere but due to cost restrictions are low end endurance wise. I'd say the rest must be German but I've not checked.

I think a lot of high-end manufacturers neglect to maintain a ready supply of parts for people to buy in-case of needing replacements. There isn't much money in it and the stock can languish. A specific part might go years before being bought. Compared to making a whole gun which is a little easier to find a buyer for.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I shot the HK416 we have a couple of times, it is precise, but handling is cancerous due to poor weight repartition and it breaks continuously. Charging handles get stuck, barrels split, buttons fly... A bit of sand or mud kills it, double feed is almost unmanageable without a knife or tool to extract cartridges, and magazines do not attach correctly half the time.


Maybe it's just our version, but heck it is an absolute catastrophe.

That is fascinating - does that mean that some units are resisting being re-equipped until the problems are sorted? Presumably if they are still using that lighter round stocks will run dry at some point. But assuming there are a bunch left maybe Ukraine can get some mileage with the rifle grenades

Are the Navy keeping their variant until last perhaps?

Yes, some units avoided supply of HK416 until the very last moment. Indeed, many people prefer the FAMAS still. Some were re equipped temporally with FAMAS to send back defect HK batches too. Witnessed it once myself.

I don't really know about the navy, as far as I now replacements are also very slow outside of SF but I can't confirm that.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Yes, some units avoided supply of HK416 until the very last moment. Indeed, many people prefer the FAMAS still. Some were re equipped temporally with FAMAS to send back defect HK batches too. Witnessed it once myself.

I don't really know about the navy, as far as I now replacements are also very slow outside of SF but I can't confirm that.

So are your 416s made in France? Could it be a subcontractor issue with quality control?

Because from my experience, HK products are absolutely brilliant. Firing an HK handgun has been compared to holding it while a team of Germans in lab coats calculate what the gun must achieve and then alter the design on the fly. And then you pull the exquisite trigger and hit the center of the target.

I don't know what the secret sauce is, but HKs are a delight to shoot and absolutely increase my accuracy.

The problem is that they are at a very high price point vs other options.

That is probably the issue. The local manufacturer is not matching the HK standards. I know France is very... zealous about their self-sufficiency in national defense so they almost certainly are making them locally. Not a bad thing necessarily, but if the firm is doing a shoddy job then its probably not a good idea. Which is odd, French industry is obviously not Teutonic levels of precision, but it should be more than capable of making a high quality AR clone.

Only gun barrels are made in France, their definitely was a subcontractor issue with them due too them using pig iron to cut prices - they should never break line they do.

All of the reste is apparentlyade in Germany, but since we pushed very hard to get cheap guns, since we can't afford otherwise, they might have replace good components with low end ones, like they did to some batches of Bundeswehr G36 that distorted under heat.

Although in that case, we know some batches we defect, but James Reeves tested one and had no problem, so it's not ALL of them.

Options... We had two main others. A Croation bullpup colloquially know "FAMAS 2", the VHS 2, or an AR15 copy proposed by french manufacturer Verney Carron, called VCD15.

I think it's a great shame they didn't go for the French one: replacement parts would be easier to demand, quality control easier to enforce, there would have been some cashback through developping the last french small arm factory.

Official argument to turn this gun own was that the output would be too small (which is silly considering not all Regiments got their HK by now, program started in 2015), and that they couldn't do to large a bargain on the guns and were far above the 1200 euro mark.

Civilian VCD15 are out there but I never saw any, they are a bit too expensive as they are not many of them but apparently they're pretty unremarkable: good gun in any regards, but not outstanding.

Nice try ATF. Honestly though… All my guns were lost in a boating accident. It was tragic. Now I don’t have any guns.

That's really sad

It doesn't even have to be poor quality overall, it could be that the materials are fine, but the tolerances are off. That would also cause overpressure and malfunctions with other parts that simply can't function out of tolerance.

A lot of Western military procurement seems to operate on the basis that war is impossible, and the most important thing is giving the generals or ministers cushy jobs once they leave office. The way in which government arsenals were completely dismantled and replaced with indifferent private contractors who have zero surge capacity would be inconceivable at any other time.

Agree with you but please no politics illa get censored

Talked with the guys in the armoury about it a couple of times, for one reason or another the inner parts seem to be the problem, as to know whether it's bad tolerances or bad materials they couldn't say. However the instance of guns being shipped back to HK were defectious parts that broke the gas piston system, so they pretty much became bolt action HK416, and in that case that's bad tolerances no questions asked: a ring in front of the piston was too loose and would put itself in a malfunctioning position

If it was bad materials I would expect the guns to work fine at first but parts to begin breaking after a while. If they're having mechanical malfunctions consistently even when brand new, I would expect it to be tolerance issues.

Now that you said it, that makes sense. That must be that

Although wear and tear is also way too high in general, mostly for the barrel and ergonomics (button, sling attaches...) so it has got to be a mixed bag of those two

Apparently, I asked, and the guns were indeed bought at 1200 euros all included each, which kind of sounds cheap to me but prices are high in France in generals so I don't know what it's worth

Well, the US pays about $700 for M4s(not including the optics and extra bits), so $1200ish for that is extremely high. Assuming that is just for the gun itself and not including any extra bits.

I'm pretty sure this was all inclusive, though, but then I guess we got scammed of they decided that a 1200 gun was a bargain


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: without optics though, those are sold separately. No idea about the price of them

Optics are expensive, or at least the good stuff is. The Aimpoint Comp M4 is a common optic used by the US and its a $1000 optic. I'm sure they get bulk deals, but its still very pricy. More than the gun its going on.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, the US pays about $700 for M4s(not including the optics and extra bits), so $1200ish for that is extremely high. Assuming that is just for the gun itself and not including any extra bits.

Yeah, but the US has also bought HK416s, and they came in between $2K - $3K per (a few different contracts for the acquisitions). Some USMC and SOCOM units got HKs.

 CptJake wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, the US pays about $700 for M4s(not including the optics and extra bits), so $1200ish for that is extremely high. Assuming that is just for the gun itself and not including any extra bits.

Yeah, but the US has also bought HK416s, and they came in between $2K - $3K per (a few different contracts for the acquisitions). Some USMC and SOCOM units got HKs.

I'm sure that was under the assumption that HK was of high quality, which in my experience they are.

Again, it may be a problem with subcontractors or poor QC. Weird that HK would tolerate it, as their brand is built upon the highest possible standards. No one is going to pay HK prices for bargain basement quality.

Then again, don't forget HK scammed the bundeswhere with batches of G36 using other material than what was advertised and causing them to bend under heat.

So I'm not so sure they'd care. Plus military markets in Europe are less if a bad buzz because you will rarely hear them complain or this won't reach that many people aside from us gun nerds.

For target shooting.

Have you ever had a gun you just couldn’t shoot accurately? A temperamental beast where no matter the adjustments made or practice, it just wouldn’t behave itself?

Yep, as I mentioned earlier about the manurhin 88 I own, it's a bitch too aim and I can't seem to have a consistent height for my impacts with it.

I've also seen a dude bring an old mosin on which the bore around the exit of the barrel was badly scared and it cause shots to fly in seemingly random fashion. He gave it a Dremel and when I see him again I ask whether he saw any improvement.