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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Nice you had a great time! Arosakas are so so rare here.

There's an alternate timeline in the Multiverse where the French occupied Japan and Arisaka sporters graced hearths from Paris to Marseilles.

The degree to which American GIs looted Japan is simply remarkable. The prevalence of sporterized rifles is indicates that much of it was practical looting rather than trophy-taking: a poor draftee jumps at the chance to get a 'free' rifle that he can hunt with.

American hunting culture is very egalitarian (indeed, it's generally disdained by the upper class - a perfect inversion of Europe).

Buying a license and taking a deer is a very cost-effective way to fill one's freezer for months, and I know people (and hope to be one of them) who don't buy red meat in stores, they harvest it in the woods, process it and live off of it year-round.

My stepfather was like that, and it reached the point where the taste of beef was someone foreign to me - we ate venison instead, including ground venison. No luck this fall, but more in-depth preparations are underway for the coming season.

I’ve said before I’d love to give rifle hunting a go. And I fully appreciate that such an endeavour should include time on a range practising. Because only an awful human bean would want to risk injuring and not killing.

One shot, one kill. Weeks worth of tasty meats.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Limiting it to autoloaders is not silly. Revolvers were horribly obsolete even by WW1. They only stuck around due to institutional inertia, mostly on part of the British who were reluctant to pay to replace all their sidearms.

Hand ejectors, swing out cylinders, etc... are the proverbial lipstick on a pig. Desperate attempts to stave off the irrelevance of Revolvers.

You'd only use a Revolver if autoloaders were available if you were 1) too poor or 2) too stubborn to switch/too cheap to pay.

I'm late to this particular track of the conversation but I want to point out that for the vast majority of users of handguns in WW1, self-loading pistols were not issued with much in the way of spare magazines. Magazines were hand-fitted and typically serialized to the guns, commonly just one per gun or sometimes two per gun as part of a holster system or transport case, with no guarantee that magazines from other guns would fit and feed correctly. The practice of carrying spare magazines for a handgun and swapping them in combat was practiced on an ad-hoc basis by trench raiders, but didn't become common practice until after WW1- more likely you just had a pocketful of spare cartridges to reload your single magazine with. Or carried multiple handguns.

So if your choice is either 6 rounds in a revolver or 7-8 in a pistol, with a time-consuming and awkward reload either way, then I can see the greater reliability of a revolver under trench conditions and with early-20th-century ammo quality being a bit more appealing.

It's worth noting that the complication and expense of fully interchangeable detachable magazines was still a major industrial concern even going into WW2. It's the main reason no nation had adopted a detachable-magazine rifle by the start of hostilities; stripper clips or en-bloc clips were comparatively much cheaper and easier to mass-produce...

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Honorable mention: Mauser C96, which while larger, hit harder and hand longer reach than any of these, as well as a deeper magazine. Had the Schnellfeuer been available, it would have been a heck of a trench clearer.

...which is part of why I would put the C96 a little higher than honorable mention, especially if the Steyr is on the list. The stripper clip system circumvents the early hurdles with detachable magazines, and is a lot faster than people expect. It locks open on empty, you insert a clip, strip the rounds, and as soon as you pull the clip it chambers the first round and is ready to go. I've shot mine on the clock, and it beats the heck out of lower-capacity pistols with no last-round hold-open and heel magazine releases, let alone if spare mags aren't guaranteed.

I mean, by modern standards it's not a great gun. It's huge, the grip sucks, the bore axis is way too high, and it has an annoying tendency to pinch the web of your hand if you choke up high on the grip. But by WW1 standards it's powerful, flat-shooting, high-capacity, exceptionally reliable, and with the stock-holster instantly adapts to a competent pistol-caliber carbine.

The M1932 'Schnellfeuer' on the other hand tries to turn the C96 into something it isn't. The cyclic rate is nigh-uncontrollable (it'll dump the standard ten-round magazine in half a second), it's reliant on detachable magazines that don't interchange as well as you might expect, and the hold-open mechanism relies on the hammer interfering with the bolt and consequently can either fail to work or fail to release after reloading (even in semi). It was developed solely to compete with Astra clones in the Chinese market; the C96 design is much better in semi-auto and by WW1 standards that's still a credible trench fighting weapon.

But all that said I guess it depends on what metrics you're using for a 'top 5', because the biggest problem with the C96 design is that it was economically non-viable as a military weapon. They were incredibly expensive to manufacture even at the time, and every modern attempt to make new ones has ended when the projected cost comes out to $3K+ even with the advantages of modern machining. It works surprisingly well for how early of a design it is, but it's also hideously overengineered in a classically German manner, and it's not surprising that the Heer was desperate to accept any other handgun that could supplement production.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Nice you had a great time! Arosakas are so so rare here.

Really? I would have thought some would have turned up via the Vietnam route? Or were conditions not right to bring home trophies from there?

Some might have, but really few and they almost all disapeared in the meantime apparently. Conditions weren't exactly top notch either to bring back stuff, plus if the french army at the time had the same view of things as it does now, it would probably have been forbidden altogether unless giving the trophy away to the regiment.

Getting ammo for them is also quite unpractical, so that's also a deal breaker, as almost only partizan cartridges are available and i'm not sure they'd make any back then.

Commissar, that's a great dream (plus a profitable one) you've got here! I'd tend to agree to an extent, not necesseraly on safe reliance and that, but because i don't know, I find it heartwarming and thrilling to know you have skills. And to make something real out of it. There's something neat in having the skills to feed oneself from zero.

6.5 Japanese is hard to get in the States as well, and expensive. Brass is available at standard pricing and there are a lot of modern bullets that can be used, so if you were into reloading it wouldn't be too bad. Either way, you don't need a pile of ammo for a hunting rifle.

For holiday gun stuff, I was able to get a Shadow 2 Compact for MSRP just before Christmas. I haven't had the chance to shoot it yet to see if it lives up to the hype, as the local ranges have had over an hour wait each time I've tried to go. Its like the health clubs after New Years, never seen them so busy. It has a fantastic 3lb trigger in SA and the trendy bevelled rear sights. I will try and get used to those rather than replace them.

Reloading supplies in France are rarer and not as wide in scope, so while it is possible and more practical to reload, it's still not quite attractive.

The arisaka would need to come with a sight graduated up to only 300m and probably in a non military cartridge to be legally used to hunt. Athough it used to be far more liberal and people used to hunt with MAS and Mausers a lot!

 catbarf wrote:
...which is part of why I would put the C96 a little higher than honorable mention, especially if the Steyr is on the list. The stripper clip system circumvents the early hurdles with detachable magazines, and is a lot faster than people expect. It locks open on empty, you insert a clip, strip the rounds, and as soon as you pull the clip it chambers the first round and is ready to go. I've shot mine on the clock, and it beats the heck out of lower-capacity pistols with no last-round hold-open and heel magazine releases, let alone if spare mags aren't guaranteed.

I mean, by modern standards it's not a great gun. It's huge, the grip sucks, the bore axis is way too high, and it has an annoying tendency to pinch the web of your hand if you choke up high on the grip. But by WW1 standards it's powerful, flat-shooting, high-capacity, exceptionally reliable, and with the stock-holster instantly adapts to a competent pistol-caliber carbine.

You don't have to sell me on the C96! The reason I kept it out of the top 5 is that it wasn't really a standard issue weapon. Yes, the Germans in desperation put them into service, but it was never widely adopted, so it's kind of a special case.

Regarding the full-auto, with a detachable magazine and stock, I think it would be good to use in short bursts, basically a compact SMG. Of course, they wouldn't have any idea about teaching that back then, so even more moot.

One of the amazing things about it is how long it was in production despite not being adopted on a large scale. People just liked them and bought them. Chinese warlords couldn't get enough of them!

In fact, a few weeks ago I was at a gun show and while waiting for my friends to finish with another vendor, I saw a C96 in a glass case and to pass the time asked to see it. Much to my surprise, I realized it was a genuine Chinese warlord fake! The vendor had no idea - he was selling it out of the estate of an avid collector. At first I think he thought I was trying to scam him, but when he said it was part of a collection the light went off. "A true collector would love one of these. I mean it's a fake, but it's a valuable fake!"

The craftsmanship on it was quite good, the "Mauser" was spelled correctly, as was the factory info. The big giveaway was the serial number, which was not aligned, nor were the right parts serialized. At that point, I noticed the rear sights, which were grossly mismarked. The vendor was still dubious but my friends caught up with me and made a big deal about finding an actual Chinese warlord gun. The guy wanted $2,500 for it and I said that was actually reasonable, given its condition (I would not have shot it for any amount of money, though).

That's pretty cool! I've seen a few of the Shanxi Arsenal guns in .45ACP at local gun shows, but never a knockoff in 7.63/9mm. My C96 is one of the commercial guns made in the 20s and exported from China to the US in the 80s, so it's got similar provenance. I'd be really curious to see what a knockoff Mauser looks like on the inside; you'd need to be a competent machinist to replicate that puzzle box clockwork mechanism of a fire control group, but a machinist who isn't a gunsmith might not appreciate some of the details necessary for safe delayed blowback operation. Chamfer the locking lug and now you have a very spicy straight blowback broomhandle.

And yeah, you can pull short bursts with the M1932, but it's really hard under any sort of stress to avoid dumping the mag, and the muzzle climb is significant even with the shoulder stock. The MP18 (and all its derivatives) was a much better design for an automatic weapon, and considerably cheaper too. Of course, the problem for the Chinese warlords who were interested in full-auto Mausers was that long guns were under embargo, so a 'proper' submachine gun was off the table anyways, and the Mauser had a well-established reputation for quality.

Interestingly, the Rio De Janeiro police bought about five hundred M1932s in the mid-30s, and used them at least into the late-80s- 'modernizing' them in the early 1970s with new metal stocks and foregrips. Here's an article about them. The author's experience tracks with my own- useless in full auto, but a decent semi-auto carbine with the stock.

 catbarf wrote:
That's pretty cool! I've seen a few of the Shanxi Arsenal guns in .45ACP at local gun shows, but never a knockoff in 7.63/9mm. My C96 is one of the commercial guns made in the 20s and exported from China to the US in the 80s, so it's got similar provenance. I'd be really curious to see what a knockoff Mauser looks like on the inside; you'd need to be a competent machinist to replicate that puzzle box clockwork mechanism of a fire control group, but a machinist who isn't a gunsmith might not appreciate some of the details necessary for safe delayed blowback operation. Chamfer the locking lug and now you have a very spicy straight blowback broomhandle.

I really wanted to tear it down, but that wasn't going to work. My sense is that it was probably pure blowback in .32 ACP. The rear sight was almost entirely decorative. It was a Bolo copy, so probably some Big Man wore it proudly on his belt.

There were competent arsenals in China making "normal' mil spec firearms, but the craft guns are fascinating.

Winter finally arrived. We had the usual tease of snow in October as well as November, but December was basically late October on replay. Very dull.

All that's over. We're huddling in the single digits, road salt won't do its work, and I was thinking about shooting in weather such as this.

Has anyone done it?

I've gone out to the range mid-winter when it's below freezing, and there is definitely a change in sensitivity on the part of the action. Extra lubrication is essential because everything wants to stick. Once the parts warm up, it's not so bad, nothing runs as slick as it does on a fine summer day.

Not with blizzard, but I did it twice, and the most difficult part was actually keep good sensitivity over the trigger in my opinion.

Be ot because of gloves or cold fingers, really, you're number than usual and a few flyers happen.

Other than that, I experienced no particular problems, but the weapons were lubricated good anyway.

I actually went to the range last week in poor weather. While it wasn't raining, but it was heavily misting and the ground was a churning mass of ice and mud. Just a reminder that a nice overcast day at home is a range that is inside the cloud layer and its charitably described as wet and cold.

Was actually glad I wore the plate carrier as it kept me warm without being too hot that a big jacket might have.

First time I ever shot was laying in snow while freezing rain occasionally made its presence known.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I actually went to the range last week in poor weather. While it wasn't raining, but it was heavily misting and the ground was a churning mass of ice and mud. Just a reminder that a nice overcast day at home is a range that is inside the cloud layer and its charitably described as wet and cold.

Was actually glad I wore the plate carrier as it kept me warm without being too hot that a big jacket might have.

Plate carrier do keep a bit warm! But I find you tend to notice it more in summer when they make you overheat than in winter when you're freezing

Can't bring one here anyway on a civilian range, chances are too high they get the police on you or throw you out of the range. Which would in all due likelyhood kind of ruin your range day.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Plate carrier do keep a bit warm! But I find you tend to notice it more in summer when they make you overheat than in winter when you're freezing

Can't bring one here anyway on a civilian range, chances are too high they get the police on you or throw you out of the range. Which would in all due likelyhood kind of ruin your range day.

When I went through Army Basic, plate carriers weren't yet a thing. Kevlar vests were where it was at.

Going through basic in winter sucked. My cold weather resistance was utterly shattered, and it took me years to recover it.

On the plus side, MOPP gear felt nice and toasty warm. More CS canisters, please!

I chose winter on the advice of the recruiter, who said allergies would be less of a problem and that if you're cold, just add another blanket. Sure, that's it.

Range days tended to be above freezing, and in any event, the legacy A2s we were issued were so loose that I could have served slushies through them with room to spare.

Had no plate carrier for military basics, rather absolutely prehistoric pieces of garbage some dare to call "load vest" (but it was truly undeserving of the title). Only got them way later on, when I got a squadron.

My 8 month basic got me through winter as well but fortunately it wasn't too harsh that year. Especially, not to much rain. Cold is a thing, but rain -.you can sense your motivation and morale dripping out of your body each passing second

Weapons needed to be dried and replied regularly, although the exterior of them would never dry and soak up your gloves... Of course, when it's cold, the weapon would carry cold and transmit it generously to your hands.

Then surely you just need to liberally fire your weapon as often as possible to get that toasty warmth back into your gloves

If only

Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

Can't bring one here anyway on a civilian range, chances are too high they get the police on you or throw you out of the range. Which would in all due likelyhood kind of ruin your range day.

Whaaaaaat.

While I'd get a couple of odd looks at my sports based range, no one would say anything so long as I followed the rules. At my other range that's used for more tactical training during the week no one would even raise an eyebrow if I rolled up wearing full combat gear. I use my SANDF 83 style chest rig quite often., but that's just a Chi Com style mag pouch chest rig, no armour.

Not my rig, but not far off. AK mags, TQ, and H20.
https://i.imgur.com/MNAoM7E.jpg

 Flinty wrote:
Then surely you just need to liberally fire your weapon as often as possible to get that toasty warmth back into your gloves

Actually, on shooting session, it is truly tempting to get just an inch closer to the hot barrel for that reason!

On the issue if plate carriers, they are in a tricky spot. That's not illegal per say as far as I am aware, but that'll have you marked as a trigger happy potential terrorist in the eyes of many. So it is not authorised in most ranges, or actively discouraged.

And if ever you are described as a trigger happy terrorist by a panicked range member, that could lead to the police coming to say hello to your house on suspicion of radicalisation.

Long story short, anything resemble wargear can be very poorly interpreted. Even kitted out weapons often raise eyebrows here and there. I'm sure they are select few places were it is possible, but in that case, they are specially intended for it and will likely count mostly like minded shooters.

The fact that private ranges are almost non existent might also play a role in this, as you can't just run around YOUR range doing whatever you fancy. They are always shared, public places.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Then surely you just need to liberally fire your weapon as often as possible to get that toasty warmth back into your gloves

Actually, on shooting session, it is truly tempting to get just an inch closer to the hot barrel for that reason!

On the issue if plate carriers, they are in a tricky spot. That's not illegal per say as far as I am aware, but that'll have you marked as a trigger happy potential terrorist in the eyes of many. So it is not authorised in most ranges, or actively discouraged.

Well, I suppose they're expecting you to retain that essential Gallic insouciance.

Maybe a whiff of ennui whilst one takes a jaded smoke break.

My drill sergeants also took a dim view of people who were enthusiastic in the wrong sort of way.

Still, I think American military culture is very much dakka dakka friendly. I recall some years ago fully embracing a writing assignment on our security police squadron and applying praise and superlatives with a trowel. I think I compared them to Audie Murphy.

Their commander purred like six kittens and by way of encouragement, and asked if I'd be willing to accompany them for a weekend of life-fire training - which would of course including familiarization for me so that I could be a better-informed author, wink, wink. I eagerly accepted, but was forced to back out when a mindlessly mundane but unavoidable conflicting assignment came up. The colonel read the disappointment on my face, and offered to elevate his request to HQ, because of all the writers, only I, with my unique Army/Air perspective could fully accomplish this vital assignment. Oh, the temptation...

I played nice, and had to decline his generous offer. Because I was young and stupid. I should have gone.

As my typical disastrous overspending on Christmas fades into the past, the possibility of future firearms purchases becomes increasingly feasible.

Given your respective jurisdictions, what items are you looking at adding to your collection in 2024?

For those with less freedom of action (say all your money is tied up in TOW purchases), what is at the top of your "wish list"? Is it something new, or a hardy perennial?

I will lead off by saying that my top priority is a pistol caliber carbine optimized for deer hunting. Not a huge lift, but my resources are limited.

I might buy a Nerf gun if a cool looking one is released?

This one perhaps?

https://hasbropulse.com/products/nerf-lmtd-aliens-m41-a-blaster

Not at that price, no 🤣🤣

Stuff to upgrade comfort of my saiga 103: just got a picatinny rails under handguard to strap a hera arm false leather foregrip on it. So far so good, waiting to try it out on the range. Would also like to add a cheekpad on the stock, again for added comfort.

Entirely random and highly subjective question.

Here in the UK, we have (maybe had? I’m dangerously close to old) travelling fairs. And one of the attractions I’m a sucker for is the target shooting.

Now I of course know the owners of the attraction have ensured the air rifle’s sights are on the wonk, and I kind of suspect they’ve also mucked about with the barrel (or provide pellets just a bit too small for the barrel?). So even when the customer has a rudimentary idea of how to best aim and shoot (squeeze, don’t pull. Squeeze when breathing out, not in), it’s always a bit off when you wanted the pellet to go.


But for the marksmen among us? Do you reckon* that after a couple of unsuccessful goes, you might be able to win the prize?


*no need to prove it! Spesh as I’m the sort of marksman where the safest place is right in front of the intended target.

If the shot is consistent, you should be able to compensate after a few and start hitting.

I have no idea how it is in other nations, but in Australia the periodic shooting assessment for the armed forces doesn't check for accuracy at all, but consistency.

Sights and scopes are fragile, and subject to wandering/loosing their zero. But if you can consistently bang shots into the same place (meaning, they land close together, even if not where your point of aim is), you can walk/adjust onto your target.