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To my knowledge .223 was designed for hunting and 5.56 was designed as a military round that NATO adopted as standard. That's why the AR10 (7.62) became the AR15 (5.56), so it could be pitched to the military, who added select fire and adopted it as the M16.
That's how I understand it went, anyway.
.223 can be fired in rifles marked 5.56, but not vice versa due to the pressures involved. They are not the same cartridge.
Tests also show that 5.56 tends to penetrate fewer barriers than 00 buck in a home defense situation. So the notion of using a shotgun because it penetrates less is somewhat flawed.
And the notion of "pointing a shotgun in the general direction of the baddie" is dangerously flawed. If you seriously believe that is good enough, please seek training. Anyone who has patterned a home defense shotgun knows it's bs.
Nostromodamus wrote: To my knowledge .223 was designed for hunting and 5.56 was designed as a military round that NATO adopted as standard. That's why the AR10 (7.62) became the AR15 (5.56), so it could be pitched to the military, who added select fire and adopted it as the M16.
That's how I understand it went, anyway.
.223 can be fired in rifles marked 5.56, but not vice versa due to the pressures involved. They are not the same cartridge.
Tests also show that 5.56 tends to penetrate fewer barriers than 00 buck in a home defense situation. So the notion of using a shotgun because it penetrates less is somewhat flawed.
And the notion of "pointing a shotgun in the general direction of the baddie" is dangerously flawed. If you seriously believe that is good enough, please seek training. Anyone who has patterned a home defense shotgun knows it's bs.
read the link I showed earlier, you will find you have erred in one of your assumptions, as to others once again a bullet higher then a .22 will go thru more then a wall while a shotgun fired from the same distance will not. and if you are aiming down a hall way, then yes general direction works.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
A sabot/rifled shotgun slug would probably penetrate drywall...yes?
I get that a shotgun has a bigger spread than a rifle...and is definitely going to be messier up close due to the size of the projectile (if slugs or possibly 00 buckshot are used).
I am thinking though that a semi auto rifle (regardless of ar 15 or not) is going to be more effective:
He is right that there are only a few in that 60grs range with comparable FPS of 1350.
However I think he was a little..off...when he claimed the 32 was lightest "common" handgun.
The 9mm Luger is by far the world's most common handgun, and its standard is I believe 115gr...nearly 2x the weight of a 00 pellet...and only 200fps less (100 if you hollow point).
I would posit then that I would rather take one piece of 00 buckshot than one 9mm shot.
TheMeanDM wrote: A sabot/rifled shotgun slug would probably penetrate drywall...yes?
I get that a shotgun has a bigger spread than a rifle...and is definitely going to be messier up close due to the size of the projectile (if slugs or possibly 00 buckshot are used).
I am thinking though that a semi auto rifle (regardless of ar 15 or not) is going to be more effective:
He is right that there are only a few in that 60grs range with comparable FPS of 1350.
However I think he was a little..off...when he claimed the 32 was lightest "common" handgun.
The 9mm Luger is by far the world's most common handgun, and its standard is I believe 115gr...nearly 2x the weight of a 00 pellet...and only 200fps less (100 if you hollow point).
I would posit then that I would rather take one piece of 00 buckshot than one 9mm shot.
but you would be taking not one piece of 00 buckshot but all 9 fired from the shotgun, as to ammo capacity guess you never heard of shotgun drums? or shotgun mags? obviously since you seem to think they are limited in Ammo count, ROF? you do realize a shotgun fires at the same rate as an AR-15? as fast as you can pull the trigger., reload? same thing as the mags and drums, accuracy only over longer ranges, up close better chance of hitting target with shotgun then a rifle.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Ted Nugent is claiming that a 5.56 caliber AR15 is:
1) not designed to kill people (but is designed for self defense...he says...huh?)
2) would be less effective at killing unarmed people than a "standard issue goose shotgun"
Do you think he is actually correct?
He is not correct on 1) because it's a bit of misdirection. While the AR15 isn't a military weapon and "wasn't designed for killing people", per se, it fires 5.56 and so obviously that was engineered specifically for killing people. At least in North America, 5.56 is a pretty lousy hunting round. It has it's applications - coyote, boars, etc - but I don't think many people immediately think varmints when they think hunting. It's not really large enough to reliably take deer imo although people do it. In my opinion, the hunting and 3 gun applications for the AR15 came later, as a bit of post purchase justification for "buying a cool looking rifle, like the military uses".
So far as 2) I have to say he's incorrect because now I'm going to do the exact kind of technical word parsing he did, since that's the game we're playing. Depending on range, a shotgun round or slug would cause far more trauma than a single 5.56 - you need better shot placement to kill with a 5.56. However, in your quote he says less effective at killing unarmed people, plural, and obviously 30 rounds is going to be more effective against people plural than 6 or 7 rounds.
The obvious framing here is that Ted Nugent is trying to imply that shotguns are more effective in mass shootings/spree killing that a semiautomatic rifle with a box magazine. On that, I think he is clearly wrong. If you want to kill as many people in a short time as possible with a firearm, it's going to be very difficult to beat a semiauto rifle with a drum magazine - specifically, I think, a 7.62x39 AK with a drum magazine, which I don't think we've seen yet.
Is this a good rationale for legislation? Not really. I'm not one for a nirvana fallacy, but I'd suggest if you want to look at legislation against firearms as a way to reduce fatalities, we start with the approx 6,000 people killed with handguns than the 250 people or so killed with rifles. But the truth this that if we continue this tangent, it's probably going to get the thread locked.
So far as self defense applications of the AR15, it will do obviously. Saying it's designed for self defense is probably a fabrication. Is it good for home defense? I don't think that's a binary, yes/no question. I think there are a lot of factors that go into what makes a firearm good for home defense depending on your situation and training level. I know that .223 will penetrate less sheetrock than a buckshot pellet in tests, but I also know a missed .223 is going to go a hell of a lot further than said shotgun pellet... I think it depends on your training and comfort level. If I were to be facing a single attacker inside my home then I think I'd probably prefer my .45acp 1911 than my AR, because I have sent thousands of rounds downrange with my 1911 and am very comfortable with it, and I trust the Gold Dot hollowpoints it's loaded with. YMMV, and if I had been in the military and trained with an M4 I bet I would answer that differently, and if I had been deer hunting many times with my shotgun, I'd answer that differently still.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
So far as 2) I have to say he's incorrect because now I'm going to do the exact kind of technical word parsing he did, since that's the game we're playing. Depending on range, a shotgun round or slug would cause far more trauma than a single 5.56 - you need better shot placement to kill with a 5.56. However, in your quote he says less effective at killing unarmed people, plural, and obviously 30 rounds is going to be more effective against people plural than 6 or 7 rounds.
they do have 20 and 30 round shotgun drum magazines and maybe larger but haven't checked in awhile. since for home intruder defense if you need more then 6-7 shells you are screwed to begin with .
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
You're moving the goalposts, which is what you do because you apparently enjoy engaging in thread destroying garbage posting behavior. It would be swell if you could stop that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/17 01:07:22
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I would wager there are very few people using Saiga 12's with 20 round drum mags (the ones in the above video) loaded with dragon's breath for home defense.
Nostromodamus wrote: I would wager there are very few people using Saiga 12's with 20 round drum mags (the ones in the above video) loaded with dragon's breath for home defense.
I'm pretty sure dragons breath shells are of limited legality. I don't think they are legal in my state, for example.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Nostromodamus wrote: I would wager there are very few people using Saiga 12's with 20 round drum mags (the ones in the above video) loaded with dragon's breath for home defense.
and you are saying that with a serious voice too? there are many of those videos out there and it is very discomfitting, especially the gun range in the second video.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: You're moving the goalposts, which is what you do because you apparently enjoy engaging in thread destroying garbage posting behavior. It would be swell if you could stop that.
also to make note California is about to pass a law that limits magazines to 10 rounds.
no, its just that the shooter in Orlando took a lot longer to do what he did then that guy took to shoot all 100 of those rounds.
as to where dragon's breath is legal or not, these are the locations it is not legal in, in the USA.
Hawaii, Alaska, Massachusetts, Conneticut, Washington D.C., Los Angeles CA, Cook County IL, and New York City.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/17 01:14:24
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Why am I not surprised that this once very cool thread has suddenly taken a turn for the worse...
Can we get back to talking about firearms instead of bickering about dumb gak before this thread gets locked?
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
And I did caveat the 00 buckshot/shotgun with the premise that it would be..messier...up close and personal. But again, it still has spread and there is potential for a person to be hit by only one of the buckshot pellets...which is what I was comparing...one pellet at 60grs and 1350fps bs being hit with a 115grs 9mm at 1100fps. The 115 is going to be more damaging as it is nearly 100% bigger.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Why am I not surprised that this once very cool thread has suddenly taken a turn for the worse...
Can we get back to talking about firearms instead of bickering about dumb gak before this thread gets locked?
we are talking about firearms, unless you do not think shotguns are firearms?
It is a thread talking about firearms and their uses, sharing collections that we own, getting tips for practical uses, and so forth.
Then people started gakposting, throwing out stupid facts, dragging politics into the thread where every other member has been able to follow the "no politics rule", and despite a handful of threads being locked with red text to basically "STFU about Orlando" it has once again been brought up in a thread that has nothing to do with this thread because none of us "own these firearms to use to shoot up gay clubs in Orlando".
But hey, at least we let ourselves get trolled. So people got that going for them, which is nice.
The proliferation of people posting videos of themselves doing mag dumps and firing specialty ammunition does not mean that's what most people use for home defense.
Especially if you know what you're doing and have basic shotgun training/experience, which I'm starting to think certain people in this thread do not have and are either massively ignorant of reality and/or trolling.
In any case, I shall participate in this potentially derailing tangent no longer.
TheMeanDM wrote: And I did caveat the 00 buckshot/shotgun with the premise that it would be..messier...up close and personal. But again, it still has spread and there is potential for a person to be hit by only one of the buckshot pellets...which is what I was comparing...one pellet at 60grs and 1350fps bs being hit with a 115grs 9mm at 1100fps. The 115 is going to be more damaging as it is nearly 100% bigger.
problem is 00 is not even the nastiest of shotgun shells, they have Flechette rounds which are just down right wrong and while banned in more locations then the dragons breath are still permitted in a great many locations and flechette rounds in a crowded location like a nightclub would just be downright inhumane, then you have bolo rounds (yeah bolos that shoot out of a shotgun shell) are not nice, and then you have door buster rounds basically for taking down doors and not beyond them, then you have flash bang shotgun shells and bull dog shotgun shells (6 00 pellets with a slug) and even flare rounds and much more and other then the flechette rounds all are legal where I live in California.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Asterios wrote: we are talking about firearms, unless you do not think shotguns are firearms?
No, you're ruining this thread with your gak posting, goal-post moving, and bickering (much like you do in most threads).
So fething stop it before the mods lock the thread.
CptJake wrote: I'm waiting on my newest to be built and sent. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I can show off some pictures.
I'm still waiting for the shop to finish Cerakoting my receivers so I can start making progress on my .300 AAC build. I have all of the parts to build out the lower and I need to order the barrel and handguard for the upper.
Yeah, it is gonna be another evil black weapon of war.
Don't antagonize!
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Why am I not surprised that this once very cool thread has suddenly taken a turn for the worse...
Can we get back to talking about firearms instead of bickering about dumb gak before this thread gets locked?
we are talking about firearms, unless you do not think shotguns are firearms?
It is a thread talking about firearms and their uses, sharing collections that we own, getting tips for practical uses, and so forth.
Then people started gakposting, throwing out stupid facts, dragging politics into the thread where every other member has been able to follow the "no politics rule", and despite a handful of threads being locked with red text to basically "STFU about Orlando" it has once again been brought up in a thread that has nothing to do with this thread because none of us "own these firearms to use to shoot up gay clubs in Orlando".
But hey, at least we let ourselves get trolled. So people got that going for them, which is nice.
so you are assuming I have none of the weapons i have mentioned? really? I never mentioned what I had or didn't have, and this all started because of someone asking a question who wasn't me.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: I'm still waiting for the shop to finish Cerakoting my receivers so I can start making progress on my .300 AAC build. I have all of the parts to build out the lower and I need to order the barrel and handguard for the upper.
I had wanted to build a .308 AR for the longest time. Now that suppressors are legal in Iowa I think I've changed my mind though.. now I'm thinking a .300 AAC as well.
How do you guys with Blackout keep your magazines segregated? The only concern I'd have would be accidentally loading a blackout round into a 5.56 chamber.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/17 01:29:42
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
CptJake wrote: I'm waiting on my newest to be built and sent. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I can show off some pictures.
I'm still waiting for the shop to finish Cerakoting my receivers so I can start making progress on my .300 AAC build. I have all of the parts to build out the lower and I need to order the barrel and handguard for the upper.
Yeah, it is gonna be another evil black weapon of war.
Don't antagonize!
Let me clarify, an evil black weapon of the Zombie War.
(and that will make sense once I post pictures!)
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
CptJake wrote: I'm waiting on my newest to be built and sent. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I can show off some pictures.
I'm still waiting for the shop to finish Cerakoting my receivers so I can start making progress on my .300 AAC build. I have all of the parts to build out the lower and I need to order the barrel and handguard for the upper.
Oooooooooooh nice!
I need to get back into what handgun I'm going to buy... I've been holding off as I've been so indecisive.
CptJake wrote: Let me clarify, an evil black weapon of the Zombie War.
(and that will make sense once I post pictures!)
I'm doing a zombie theme on my build as well.
I got the Spike's Tactical zombie lower (that I will color fill) and a couple other zombie-themed accessories.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
