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Any suggestions? I find a lot of guys are playing some kind of fast "death star" strategy to get through to my heavies at the back.

Ork 'bike star' is the worst. They get a cover save, even when hit with barrage (unless it's a weapon that specifically negates cover saves), plus a FNP save. They are T5 and 2 wounds each. I got hit with a power claw on a bike once that knocked out a 3 tank squadron in one assault.

The Ork wagon with death roller is equally bad, but I can probably get side/rear armor with Stormies. The problem here, is the wagon has probably delivered it's troops by the time I get a ST squad out. Infiltrate the storm troopers up front to stop the wagons?

Multi-meltas in an attack bike squad. If the squad is large, they're a serious problem.

Possible Solutions

Bubble wrap + aegis and flamer spam. Lootas make infantry disappear, so the aegis helps. Good assault protection (wall of flame!), but does nothing vs ranged anti-tank, and often leaves my flanks open, as the aegis isn't long enough to wrap around 2 vehicles and 20 men. I'm really not getting as much milage as I expected from this strategy. I don't feel safe and sound, I feel like I made a bomb and put all my troops inside it.

Mutli-melta sponsons on 2-3 tanks. I haven't tried this yet, but it should have the stopping power needed to take out small alpha strikes. Larger attempts could be problematic, as I'll probably overkill a few models, leaving plenty more on the table to continue their attack.

Hide AV12 behind a wall of AV14?

Keep artillery in reserve? That just sounds crazy.

I feel like I'm missing something. I'm losing way too many AV12 vehicles early in the game. AV14 Lemans are generally safe from shooting, but not safe in assault. I know that the Guard is not a durable army, but I thought my vehicles could take a bit more punishment. I've lost so many guardsmen to exploding chimeras, and exploding vehicles that they are supposed to be protecting. If I can't find LOS cover for my artillery, it's gone by turn 2-3.

Everyone I play with has their blitz strategy finely tuned, it's tough to compete when artillery and tanks are my best weapons. Any tips?

What are the AV14 tanks you are taking?
If they are taking out your AV12, and leaving your AV14 alone, you may want to rethink your AV14.

-Matt

I like the idea of punishers or, if you don't have points, exterminators with multimelta sponsons. Lots of decent strength shots on the one hand, and Ap2 ID causers on the other. I've had a pair of las/multimelta punishers eat a draigowing alive before.

Otherwise, bubble wrap, as you say, isn't a bad idea. Another is to start spamming the hell out of special weapons. Shield your most precious troops with three melta vet squads or a bunch of plasma spam, and they'll think twice before approaching.

Or you could get a little bit of close-in action yourself, like with a choppy CCS, or something. You don't need a lot, just enough to stop something from absolutely steamrolling you so that your guns can handle the rest.

Speedbump 10 man infantry squads bubblewrapping a ton of artillery (medusae and manticores) behind an Aegis.

They charge, wipe one 10 man guard squad, get wiped by multiple Str10 pie-plates.

Soopah easy.

HawaiiMatt wrote:What are the AV14 tanks you are taking?
If they are taking out your AV12, and leaving your AV14 alone, you may want to rethink your AV14.

-Matt

I usually take LRBTs with HF and no upgrades. I haven't taken any other tanks in a while, but first on my list would be an exterminator with 3 HBs, or Demolisher with no upgrades. My 3 LRBTs with flamers can be discouraging to advancing enemies, I've seen people adapt their initial strategy so they don't have to face them. Somehow they're still getting flanked, shot, and even assaulted if the enemy gets through my inf line.

Ailaros wrote:I like the idea of punishers or, if you don't have points, exterminators with multimelta sponsons. Lots of decent strength shots on the one hand, and Ap2 ID causers on the other. I've had a pair of las/multimelta punishers eat a draigowing alive before.

Otherwise, bubble wrap, as you say, isn't a bad idea. Another is to start spamming the hell out of special weapons. Shield your most precious troops with three melta vet squads or a bunch of plasma spam, and they'll think twice before approaching.

Or you could get a little bit of close-in action yourself, like with a choppy CCS, or something. You don't need a lot, just enough to stop something from absolutely steamrolling you so that your guns can handle the rest.

I've never tried punishers, maybe it's time. I can see the potential to kill multi-wound models with it. Also nice for forcing lots of saves. I'm still getting the hang of bubble wrap, I keep screwing it up. I'll try again, with more firepower, as you said.

PRIESTS I've thought about over and over. They would be really nice to add some extra punch in CC.

CaptainGrey wrote:Speedbump 10 man infantry squads bubblewrapping a ton of artillery (medusae and manticores) behind an Aegis.

They charge, wipe one 10 man guard squad, get wiped by multiple Str10 pie-plates.

Soopah easy.

That's pretty much the plan, but with flamer spam too. Failing points are AV12, ork wagons w roller, fliers, deepstrike, enemy artillery and ranged shooting (lootas), jump infantry, bike star, etc. In our group, a common strategy is to put your anti tanking shooting units in a building with a roof - negates barrage weapons. CaptainGrey I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just saying, there are plenty of things that can go wrong in a meta game where everyone has a blitz tactic.

Thanks for the all the suggestions, these should help polish up my artillery game!

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Speedbump 10 man infantry squads bubblewrapping a ton of artillery (medusae and manticores) behind an Aegis.

They charge, wipe one 10 man guard squad, get wiped by multiple Str10 pie-plates.

Soopah easy.

Easier said than done. I've faced an IG list with Nob bike star allied in before, and I tried to bubble wrap and speedbump. Because the bikes can move so fast, they can often multiassault around the edges of your bubblewrap and speedbump. They give up the +1A, but they don't really need it to begin with. When playing with bubblewrap units, table space is at a premium and bikes just skirt around or multiassault them. It works, but you have to position very carefully. Laslty, any shooting their army has (if they're smart) will be directed at making your speedbump's footprint small enough to multiassault around, compacting the problem.

lizardwolf19 wrote:


Easier said than done. I've faced an IG list with Nob bike star allied in before, and I tried to bubble wrap and speedbump. Because the bikes can move so fast, they can often multiassault around the edges of your bubblewrap and speedbump. They give up the +1A, but they don't really need it to begin with. When playing with bubblewrap units, table space is at a premium and bikes just skirt around or multiassault them. It works, but you have to position very carefully. Laslty, any shooting their army has (if they're smart) will be directed at making your speedbump's footprint small enough to multiassault around, compacting the problem.

This is exactly what happens.

People hear this and respond with "Well, the guard has the best shooting in the game, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Just hit em with some large blast templates." As if I can just place a few blast templates where ever I need them, and not shoot down my own men. If you play imperial guard and your solution is "more big guns", and that works, you're opponent isn't thinking. I've haven't faced an opponent yet who didn't have a tight anti-vehicle strategy.

I think that careful infantry screening combined with bike-killing weapons is key, but it's not a hard counter.

This is a tough one, because in addition to a bike star, he has lootas camped everywhere, and 2 dakka jets. I'm convinced that all he needs to beat me is a bike star, the rest is just overkill.

edit - typo

 CaptObvious wrote:


This is a tough one, because in addition to a bike star, he has lootas camped everywhere, and 2 dakka jets. I'm convinced that all he needs to beat me is a bike star, the rest is just overkill.

Maybe that's your problem. Your focussing all your shooting on a single unit, while ignoring the scoring units that are really winning the game. Those nobs can't kill more than 1 unit per turn, and are unlikely to do even that if you are positioning correctly.

I've never had a major problem with nob bikers. Medusas and Manticores really tear them up. I'm not debating that they're not a threat, they sure as hell are, but maybe you're too scared of them.

CaptObvious wrote:"Just hit em with some large blast templates."

As by now you've figured out, large blast templates are worse than they might initially appear. Against good displacement, you're not all that likely to get many hits, and against opponents who can kill your vehicles, artillery isn't guaranteed to last.

It's been a trend since 5th edition - multi-shot weapons are better than blast weapons. The exterminator is better than the LRBT. The punisher is better than the exterminator, etc. Given that russes got relatively better, I'd just stick with those.

As for bubblewrapping being insufficient, you're probably doing bubblewrap wrong. Having two naked infantry squads trying to shield the tank may or may not work (especially now that casualties are taken from the nearest model - a squad of lootas could easily blast open a gap). A bubblewrap of a 3x melta vet squad for the same price that is able to kill dead whatever was going to assault your vehicles is much more useful.

Well, if the only thing you want to do is kill nob bikers, then just take a colossus or an eradicator. Problem solved.

I wasn't implying that a single 100 point meltavet squad would be able to take down a 750 point boss+nob biker deathstar. My point was more that it's going to be better to kill what is going to try and wipe out your tanks than it is going to be merely trying to physically block them from getting to their target.

lizardwolf19 wrote:


This is not true, as I stated above, they WILL multiassault.

I disagree strongly with that. They will multiassault if you let them multiassault. It's not exactly hard to stop, unless you're running a static gunline, but then you're not running mech if you're static.

Have you considered allies? Maybe some Orks of your own, or Purifiers or maybe even some Necrons?

Griddlelol wrote:I disagree strongly with that. They will multiassault if you let them multiassault. It's not exactly hard to stop, unless you're running a static gunline, but then you're not running mech if you're static.

So, you put your dudes in front of the tank, two ranks deep, shoulder to shoulder, completely boxing it in (nevermind that this is a seriously wasteful use of at least 200 points). Then your opponent shoots their lootas at the guardsmen in front. The casualties have to be taken from the models closest to the lootas, which means that the only models that will be removed will be a bunch of models right next to each other.

Which opens up a hole for the bikes to make it in through. Even if this wasn't wasteful, it's seriously far from guaranteed to work.

 Ailaros wrote:

Griddlelol wrote:I disagree strongly with that. They will multiassault if you let them multiassault. It's not exactly hard to stop, unless you're running a static gunline, but then you're not running mech if you're static.

So, you put your dudes in front of the tank, two ranks deep, shoulder to shoulder, completely boxing it in (nevermind that this is a seriously wasteful use of at least 200 points). Then your opponent shoots their lootas at the guardsmen in front. The casualties have to be taken from the models closest to the lootas, which means that the only models that will be removed will be a bunch of models right next to each other.

Which opens up a hole for the bikes to make it in through. Even if this wasn't wasteful, it's seriously far from guaranteed to work.

Sorry, that random scenario you came up with doesn't make much sense at all. It's very easy to make something sound gak if you word it to sound gak. I'm not going to go through each game I've had against nob bikers, but it's not like it's impossible to stop them multi-charging. A bubble wrap isn't really necessary in a fully mech list anyway.

Your strategy doesn't work because any unit in the game can bore a hole into the bubble wrap with shooting.

Bubble wrapping, as we used to know it is dead, now that we can no longer remove models in the squad on the other side of the tank from the threatening units.

 Deadshot wrote:
Have you considered allies? Maybe some Orks of your own, or Purifiers or maybe even some Necrons?

I'm going to echo this. I've run into the same issue as the OP against many different kinds of armies. That turn 2 assault by some crazy melee unit really ruins my army. We did a lot of talking in my club, and the one big thing we talked about was running allies as counter assault. The sheer deterrent of your own nob biker unit or death company unit will make your opponent think twice before hitting your screen, let alone the prospect of losing their own unit in the counter assault itself.

If I were the OP I would personally consider some Death Company with Power Mauls and a DCDread with Talons, lead by a Reclusiarch or Astrorath if they have JP. Nice, bloody, fighty counterattacking unit.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, if the only thing you want to do is kill nob bikers, then just take a colossus or an eradicator. Problem solved.

Nobz are T5 multi-wound, usually with FNP. Those might ignore their armor and cover saves, but they don't get the luxury of instant death or multiple blast templates. Bring a Manticore. Accept no substitutes

This probably is a terrible idea, but...what about hellhounds? You get a S6 template that ignores cover and doesn't scatter, and should ignore the nobz armor too (this also might be the silver lining Ailaros was looking for earlier). Granted, you don't get ID but you aren't getting that from anything short of your biggest guns anyway.
For general deathstar defense though, I feel like demolishers are going to give you the best chance of doing some damage because of the str and AP, they'd be about as good as you're going to get against deepstriking termies and incoming MEQ bikers if you got a hit. That ID is worth a premium in this case, and you vastly increase your damage if you can ignore their saves.

I have had the same issue, and with 6th edition I have found good ways to counter

Wall of ogryns with commissar, they will hold forever against an assault but I still find them to be to pricy.

Or two groups of rough riders, their first charge will get you to either counter that assault and with the second one if anything is left standing lasguns will do just fine. I mainly bring two to hold back against separate assaults.Special weapons teams with flamers and a squad of guardsmen, this way you have one group to assault and one to shoot. No matter which one is assaulted it will still delay the attack on your tanks. I also use chimeras to shield my tanks from heavy fire from the distance, I lose a transport or if they fired at my tank I can usually get cover saves from the chimera.

honestly if you're scared of blowing up your own men then you shouldn't be playing IG or you didn't bring enough fodder. also possibility to kill 750pts of enemy or 100 of your own pts... I wonder....
as for Lootas...just go to ground it's not like you'll need to move your men if you only use them as a speed bump. and an ADL will help with this, as will more men

 CaptObvious wrote:

lizardwolf19 wrote:


Easier said than done. I've faced an IG list with Nob bike star allied in before, and I tried to bubble wrap and speedbump. Because the bikes can move so fast, they can often multiassault around the edges of your bubblewrap and speedbump. They give up the +1A, but they don't really need it to begin with. When playing with bubblewrap units, table space is at a premium and bikes just skirt around or multiassault them. It works, but you have to position very carefully. Laslty, any shooting their army has (if they're smart) will be directed at making your speedbump's footprint small enough to multiassault around, compacting the problem.

This is exactly what happens.

People hear this and respond with "Well, the guard has the best shooting in the game, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Just hit em with some large blast templates." As if I can just place a few blast templates where ever I need them, and not shoot down my own men. If you play imperial guard and your solution is "more big guns", and that works, you're opponent isn't thinking. I've haven't faced an opponent yet who didn't have a tight anti-vehicle strategy.

I think that careful infantry screening combined with bike-killing weapons is key, but it's not a hard counter.

This is a tough one, because in addition to a bike star, he has lootas camped everywhere, and 2 dakka jets. I'm convinced that all he needs to beat me is a bike star, the rest is just overkill.

edit - typo

Maybe your mistake is castling. If you have 2 Manticores, why not try putting them far away from one another so they can't both get assaulted at the same time?

How many Nobz are in that unit? FOMT makes them reroll successful cover saves and most people don't hook their Nobz up specifically because they're relying on that 4+ coversave they carry with them.

I've had a lot of luck with a double bunker.
I place my object in the middle of my DZ, in the most exposed place I can find. Then I bunker up in both corners.
Typically one bunker can fire pretty well at the other, and both can fire on the objective.
It doesn't cut into your firepower much, and limits a death star to rolling into half your army.
I still drop storm troopers and flyer transported vets to take other objectives. Late game, survivors and crippled units run for my homefield objective.

-Matt

 Ailaros wrote:
Your strategy doesn't work because any unit in the game can bore a hole into the bubble wrap with shooting.

Bubble wrapping, as we used to know it is dead, now that we can no longer remove models in the squad on the other side of the tank from the threatening units.

Bubble wrapping still works to help protect units from deep striking enemies. That is about it.

Autocannons and more auto cannons. Yes only ap4 but the strength means you hit on a lot 2s. ADL helps a little. If you have problems with infantry runninf away try a commissar or asmany as you have squads.

Actually, I've found to just bring more tanks. Like, 5 in under 2k points. I expect one, two, or even three tanks to die, but usually I can kill off all my opponents anti tank by then, and my last two or three tanks can go around and stomp face unmolested.

Other than that, I really don't know how to help. It's my troops that I have trouble keeping on the table long enough, not so much my heavy support.

Oh and I almost forgot... you do realize you have access to allies right? Bring an allied beatstick. For a bargain you can get celestine for 115pts.

HawaiiMatt wrote:I've had a lot of luck with a double bunker.
I place my object in the middle of my DZ, in the most exposed place I can find. Then I bunker up in both corners.
Typically one bunker can fire pretty well at the other, and both can fire on the objective.
It doesn't cut into your firepower much, and limits a death star to rolling into half your army.
I still drop storm troopers and flyer transported vets to take other objectives. Late game, survivors and crippled units run for my homefield objective.

-Matt

This. I understand that a mech build means a wall of tanks and artillery, and I understand that a massive foot horde can absorb just about any assault. But I like this idea like this because it's a tactic, not a list. Anyone can copy/paste. That said, I'd have to try this tactic out, because I'm not certain it would work. It puts the enemy to a choice, it funnels them into range. Seems worth a try. It could turn out that making 2 bite-sized armies are easier to kill then 1 large army. I don't know.

Deadshot wrote:Have you considered allies? Maybe some Orks of your own, or Purifiers or maybe even some Necrons?

I actually LOVE this in the 6th, and IG can ally with so many other armies! I've been looking at Space Wolves, and other marines. Not so much Orks, because they aren't Battle Brothers, and because I'm stubborn about fluff (yes, go ahead and laugh, but I try to stay competitive).

Guys, thanks for all the input, great thread. My opinion is - if you've got a balanced list (not a full mech list, or a full horde list), you're setting yourself up to be taken advantage of by guys who will stack points into nothing but the best weapons to kill your army with. The meta game that I'm in is HIGHLY competitive, and I've told them that I enjoy trying new tactics and seeing what's possible with the Guard. I could always sell some stuff and go all mech, but I'd feel so dirty, lol. I'm going to see if I can tighten up my line, and maybe hit a little harder next time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot... you do realize you have access to allies right? Bring an allied beatstick. For a bargain you can get celestine for 115pts.

I have an allied detachment of Sisters with 2 cannoness already (and shopping for celestine). I might eventually grab up a Space Wolves detachment for some good CC.

 CaptObvious wrote:
I understand that a mech build means a wall of tanks and artillery, and I understand that a massive foot horde can absorb just about any assault. But I like this idea like this because it's a tactic, not a list. Anyone can copy/paste. That said, I'd have to try this tactic out, because I'm not certain it would work. It puts the enemy to a choice, it funnels them into range. Seems worth a try. It could turn out that making 2 bite-sized armies are easier to kill then 1 large army. I don't know.

It depends on the armies you play against, honestly. Splitting your force in two is great for slower armies and gunlines. Fast and Drop Armies will find that particular angle/wedge to pick apart one side and laugh at the other. Mech Builds are a toss up.

I feel like I'm missing something. I'm losing way too many AV12 vehicles early in the game. AV14 Lemans are generally safe from shooting, but not safe in assault. I know that the Guard is not a durable army, but I thought my vehicles could take a bit more punishment. I've lost so many guardsmen to exploding chimeras, and exploding vehicles that they are supposed to be protecting. If I can't find LOS cover for my artillery, it's gone by turn 2-3.

Everyone I play with has their blitz strategy finely tuned, it's tough to compete when artillery and tanks are my best weapons. Any tips?

Its the burden of fielding Artillery and Tanks. Both can soak up alot of points and if you're not careful, you'll run out of infantry to protect them.

Terrain set-up is pivotal. Throwing a couple area terrain pieces in mid field to try and force the Bikes into narrow passes or around them while your Griffon+Colossus pounds them in the safety of the backfield.

Fielding both Arty and Russes will make you pull out your hair sometimes, but its worth it when they rip into other armies...