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carmachu wrote:

 TBD wrote:



However GW also claims ownership of "Dark Elves".....

WOTC and Hasbro might have somthing to say about that. By oh, 10-20 years.

...and they in turn stole the term from Tolkien, who also had Dark Elves. In fact, that spelling of the word "elves" was introduced by Tolkien - before him, there were "elfs" and "dwarfs".

I wonder, btw, whether notable omission of the word "Eldar" in LotR movies is related to GW trademarking of the name. Even though that name is actually invented by Tolkien, and legally GW would not be able to stop using it - but perhaps New Line Cinema was just being polite.

Green orcs predate GW.

Do they?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Do they?

Description: Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration
- brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish
snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black, sometimes with
tan patches. Even their armor tends to be unattractive - dirty and often a
bit rusty. Orcs favor unpleasant colors in general. Their garments are in
tribal colors, as are shield devices or trim. Typical colors are blood red, rust
red, mustard yellow, yellow green, moss green, greenish purple, and
blackish brown. They live for 40 years.

From the 1st Edition Monster Manual - 1977

So, there is one without even breaking a sweat. Since Citadel didn't come into existence for another 2 years - I would say yes.



1980 Boxed Set

I am trying to recall when GW first did their green orcs, but I never followed their fantasy products that much.

swampyturtle wrote:

Didnt somebody earlier point out that a Grimdarkness future with starships that look like cathedrals was orignal to GW ? or was i misreading that post?

Nah.. Just look at the Cover Art for Herbert's "The Jesus Incident" - 1979

Backfire wrote:


...and they in turn stole the term from Tolkien, who also had Dark Elves. In fact, that spelling of the word "elves" was introduced by Tolkien - before him, there were "elfs" and "dwarfs".

Absolutely. And before them Norse mythology. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying TSR, WOTC or Hasbro are the originater of dark elves. But that term has been around a hell of a long time.

Here's another one for the pot. Was reading through the Judge Dredd source book by Mongoose and there is mention of a Land Raider. Pretty certain this would of been before GW ever used it.

oh well. At least the books will be worth reading.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Here's another one for the pot. Was reading through the Judge Dredd source book by Mongoose and there is mention of a Land Raider. Pretty certain this would of been before GW ever used it.

By coincidence, GW made a Judge Dread miniature game before introducing Land Raiders. As they distributed D&D before introducing Dark Elves, Orcs etc.. Will be hard for them to prove that they weren't aware of things they distributed

Forgotten about that. I think I have a PDF of that rule book knocking around somewhere. I will have a poke a round and see

 Amaya wrote:
Not really considering Dr. Dre and Eminem are the ones supporting him. Interscope/Shady/Aftermath could sell just about anyone other than Bizarre.

OT: Interscope didn't promote AFI's 2009 album, despite the band being well-known amongst goths and punks alike, and the follow up to Decemberunderground, so something went wrong there, didn't it?

It took skill to take GW to where it is now.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Here's another one for the pot. Was reading through the Judge Dredd source book by Mongoose and there is mention of a Land Raider. Pretty certain this would of been before GW ever used it.

The Dredd Land Raider appeared in the early story "The Cursed Earth." That was in 1978 so it certainly predates GW!

Also, I'm pretty sure the word "Psyker" was used in Dredd before WH40K was launched. I don't know, as it was only a brief mention. Don't take my word for it but if I had to guess I would say it was used in the story "The Warlord," which was in 1986.

Ah, ha. If it's the one I remember, they did a cutaway of it in an annual. Two part beast with a nuclear powered engine. Big tank tracks on the back? I think the front separated and became an all terrain vehicle.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Do they?

Description: Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration
- brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish
snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black, sometimes with
tan patches. Even their armor tends to be unattractive - dirty and often a
bit rusty. Orcs favor unpleasant colors in general. Their garments are in
tribal colors, as are shield devices or trim. Typical colors are blood red, rust
red, mustard yellow, yellow green, moss green, greenish purple, and
blackish brown. They live for 40 years.

From the 1st Edition Monster Manual - 1977

So, there is one without even breaking a sweat. Since Citadel didn't come into existence for another 2 years - I would say yes.



1980 Boxed Set

I am trying to recall when GW first did their green orcs, but I never followed their fantasy products that much.

I just peed myself a little at seeing this one, Thanks.

They had the green orks when they were a D and D spinoff. One of the first sculpters, I think it was The Perry's, and Kev Adams, had them back then.

Lets check. I found this one from '88.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat88/

http://www.solegends.com/citcat88/0501orcs-02.htm

Anyone else got any that are older? That was the Green ones, By the Way, not the pig faces of Otherworlds fame that came from the old style from Dungeon Dwellers.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Ah, ha. If it's the one I remember, they did a cutaway of it in an annual. Two part beast with a nuclear powered engine. Big tank tracks on the back? I think the front separated and became an all terrain vehicle.

This entire Dredd storyline - The Cursed Earth thing where he has to deliver (a serum?) from one Mega City to another, was lifted lock stock from a Roger Zelazny story called Damnation Alley - see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation_Alley

The 2000 AD comic had a long running Judge Dredd story arc that was an adaptation of the story (with the journey in the reverse direction), in which Dredd and Spikes Harvey Rotten (the greatest Punk alive) journeyed across the Cursed Earth between Megacity 1 (on the U.S. East Coast) to Megacity 2 (on the West coast) to deliver a vaccine to the 2T(Fru)T virus.

Here it is:

the Stub Gun is also from Dredd.

Basically, if anything was cool, it was co-opted for 40k. Does anyone actually claim, or is somehow deluded into believing, that 40k is a wholly original creation?

Alan Merrett does...

carmachu wrote:

Backfire wrote:


...and they in turn stole the term from Tolkien, who also had Dark Elves. In fact, that spelling of the word "elves" was introduced by Tolkien - before him, there were "elfs" and "dwarfs".

Absolutely. And before them Norse mythology. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying TSR, WOTC or Hasbro are the originater of dark elves. But that term has been around a hell of a long time.

Yup, I was going to bring up the same thing. "Dark elf" is a pretty direct translation of "dokkalfar." There were also "svartalfar," or "black elves." Interestingly enough, "dokkalfar," "svartalfar," and "dverg" all seem to be used interchangeably, and "dverg" is the origin for what we think of now as "dwarf." It's interesting to think that what we now think of as "dark elves" or "drow" and "dwarves" were originally the same mythological being.

(Sigh. It's not often I actually get to use stuff from my Medieval English Literature degree....)

Yeah- but most of our gaming monsters are split terms that used to be synonyms. In Shakespear, there really isn't a difference between a demon, and a goblin (and Hamlet uses both terms to refer to his father's ghost).

Backfire wrote:

carmachu wrote:

 TBD wrote:



However GW also claims ownership of "Dark Elves".....

WOTC and Hasbro might have somthing to say about that. By oh, 10-20 years.

...and they in turn stole the term from Tolkien, who also had Dark Elves. In fact, that spelling of the word "elves" was introduced by Tolkien - before him, there were "elfs" and "dwarfs".

I wonder, btw, whether notable omission of the word "Eldar" in LotR movies is related to GW trademarking of the name. Even though that name is actually invented by Tolkien, and legally GW would not be able to stop using it - but perhaps New Line Cinema was just being polite.

I doubt that bit about Eldar. GW would not sue New Line Cinema- because New Line is a company that has the resources to protect itself legally. Games Workshop only goes after small companies and people who do not have the resources to protect themselves, and consequently almost never actually has to prove their case before a court (just look at what's been going on in the Chapterhouse Studios case).



On a side note- Disney used the title "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" before Tolkien used the term in his books. I'm sure I could find other precedents for these terms, but overall I've simply found that both spellings of the plural for Dwarf has been acceptable for some time. I would bet the same is true for Elf- the issue there was that Tolkien's publisher preferred using the terms "Elfs, Dwarfs, Elfin, etc."

there was me thinking that the greeks had marines on their ships at the battle of Salamis in 480 BC, but then, what does anyone who has read a history book know?

A space marine is simply a marine who operates from a spacecraft (duh!) The Royal Marines were created in 1664, and the USMC in 1775. so when the nations of the earth put warships in space, and put marines on them, will GW sue the USMC or the RM for trademark infringements when they get called the United States Space Marine Corps or the Royal Space Marines? is the world going crazy?

judgedoug wrote:the Stub Gun is also from Dredd.

Basically, if anything was cool, it was co-opted for 40k. Does anyone actually claim, or is somehow deluded into believing, that 40k is a wholly original creation?

40k is entirely derivative of other people's work. Some of it blatantly, some of it not. That GW now takes their derivative work and tries to pass it off as their own stuff and shut down the creativity of others with DMCA take down notices is really disgusting. Fortunately in this case, GW failed.

madtankbloke wrote:there was me thinking that the greeks had marines on their ships at the battle of Salamis in 480 BC, but then, what does anyone who has read a history book know?

They did indeed have soldiers on triremes and biremes that would attack from the ships. I'm not sure they were dedicated to the ships though some probably fought their entire careers on ships while others would be regular hoplites some of the time and fight at sea some other times.

 agustin wrote:

judgedoug wrote:the Stub Gun is also from Dredd.

Basically, if anything was cool, it was co-opted for 40k. Does anyone actually claim, or is somehow deluded into believing, that 40k is a wholly original creation?

40k is entirely derivative of other people's work. Some of it blatantly, some of it not. That GW now takes their derivative work and tries to pass it off as their own stuff and shut down the creativity of others with DMCA take down notices is really disgusting. Fortunately in this case, GW failed.

Keep in mind though, it isn't necessarily over. Based on the information which has been released, Amazon changed there minds - there is no indication of GW relenting on the issue (if anything, their Facebook post was doubling down). They may still end up filing a lawsuit against the author in an attempt to bury her under the legal fees which come with a case like this. Significantly less than what you would find in a case like CHS - but still, if they would file suit in the UK...it could become prohibitive to even put up a defense for a self published author in the US - and I do not know how active the EFF is in the UK, so they might not even be able to offer pro-bono representation.

Worse still is that they actually have a fair amount of time to choose to file suit against the author. By waiting a few months to a few years (I think the limit is 3 years off the top of my head, though it might be a little more or less than that) they can wait till the stink dies down and people forget...then just pile on with legal activity when people are less interested in her cause.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 agustin wrote:

judgedoug wrote:the Stub Gun is also from Dredd.

Basically, if anything was cool, it was co-opted for 40k. Does anyone actually claim, or is somehow deluded into believing, that 40k is a wholly original creation?

40k is entirely derivative of other people's work. Some of it blatantly, some of it not. That GW now takes their derivative work and tries to pass it off as their own stuff and shut down the creativity of others with DMCA take down notices is really disgusting. Fortunately in this case, GW failed.

Keep in mind though, it isn't necessarily over. Based on the information which has been released, Amazon changed there minds - there is no indication of GW relenting on the issue (if anything, their Facebook post was doubling down). They may still end up filing a lawsuit against the author in an attempt to bury her under the legal fees which come with a case like this. Significantly less than what you would find in a case like CHS - but still, if they would file suit in the UK...it could become prohibitive to even put up a defense for a self published author in the US - and I do not know how active the EFF is in the UK, so they might not even be able to offer pro-bono representation.

Worse still is that they actually have a fair amount of time to choose to file suit against the author. By waiting a few months to a few years (I think the limit is 3 years off the top of my head, though it might be a little more or less than that) they can wait till the stink dies down and people forget...then just pile on with legal activity when people are less interested in her cause.

Well, WRT Facebook. It looks like GW has stuck their head in the sand again. They've deleted their FB page...
https://www.facebook.com/gamesworkshopofficial?fref=ts goes to nowhere now.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 agustin wrote:

judgedoug wrote:the Stub Gun is also from Dredd.

Basically, if anything was cool, it was co-opted for 40k. Does anyone actually claim, or is somehow deluded into believing, that 40k is a wholly original creation?

40k is entirely derivative of other people's work. Some of it blatantly, some of it not. That GW now takes their derivative work and tries to pass it off as their own stuff and shut down the creativity of others with DMCA take down notices is really disgusting. Fortunately in this case, GW failed.

Keep in mind though, it isn't necessarily over. Based on the information which has been released, Amazon changed there minds - there is no indication of GW relenting on the issue (if anything, their Facebook post was doubling down). They may still end up filing a lawsuit against the author in an attempt to bury her under the legal fees which come with a case like this. Significantly less than what you would find in a case like CHS - but still, if they would file suit in the UK...it could become prohibitive to even put up a defense for a self published author in the US - and I do not know how active the EFF is in the UK, so they might not even be able to offer pro-bono representation.

Worse still is that they actually have a fair amount of time to choose to file suit against the author. By waiting a few months to a few years (I think the limit is 3 years off the top of my head, though it might be a little more or less than that) they can wait till the stink dies down and people forget...then just pile on with legal activity when people are less interested in her cause.

Well, WRT Facebook. It looks like GW has stuck their head in the sand again. They've deleted their FB page...
https://www.facebook.com/gamesworkshopofficial?fref=ts goes to nowhere now.

*Slow clap*

They are really killing themselves with their attitude towards social media. But to be fair I guess they can't really embrace it without completley changing their public image.

Always tough to make first contact with reality.
GW managers are so isolated, they are seriously in danger of dying of common flue when they leave the GW building
How about renaming them Autistic Workshop

You know, you'd think a smart business would get wise after a while...when your public image is so bad that any time you poke your head outside your "fortress wall", you're met with such hatred and scorn that it sends you scurrying back inside in retreat of the mob, you'd think someone over there at GW would look at all that mess and say "Gee, this might be a problem. We should fix this."

LOL NOPE

So I wonder what happened, was this purely because of the fallout from their IP bullying or what?

Meanwhile, inside the GW offices:

Executive #1: I just don't understand!
Executive #2: What?
Executive #1: I've been hitting the Escape key for an hour and the Internet still won't go away!
Executive #2: Try Ctr-Alt-Delete.
Executive #3: Don't do that! You'll only reset your computer.
Executive #1: Then what do we do?
Executive #3: Just wait it out! Just remember your training - the Internet is nothing but a fad, and will go away in a few years just like hoola-hoops and New Labor*.
Executive #2: He's right you know. All you're doing is using up how many times the escape key can be used!
Executive #1: Good point. So... roll in the money pit?
Executive #2 & #3: Roll in the money pit!!!





*Only our friends in the UK might get that reference.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Here it is:

Oh man, my older Cousin gave that too me as present one day, I always wondered what it was from.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Well, WRT Facebook. It looks like GW has stuck their head in the sand again. They've deleted their FB page...
https://www.facebook.com/gamesworkshopofficial?fref=ts goes to nowhere now.

Wow, that's really quite bad and doesn't show a very good attitude at all.

Of course, it would be a bad idea for GW to actually sue. Of course, that didn't stop them with Chapterhouse, but it is even more obvious here (John Scalzi noted that the term has been used back to the '30s).

If they did, and it went to court, it might be possible for Games Workshop to lose their IP rights for a time (and it is very probable that 'Space Marine' would be declared officially a generic term).

And in any case, if they did decide to try and sue in order to bury this small author- well, it would cost GW way more than any potential damages such a small author could put forward.

I'm not sure that a UK lawsuit is even possible when Games Workshop has a US branch, and all of the other parties involved (Amazon and the self published author) are US companies.

On a side note- I'm sure this publicity has to be very good for a certain self published author.