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I am doing a fandex for the salamander first company the mighty firedrakes

All units so far

I'd suggest lowering master crafting prices to between 5-10pts.
This is because power fists and power weapons are now terribly expensive to master craft.

Also, go snoop around McNinja's thread. It seems like a good one.

I have been helping. Done what you sugested.

Alright, first I'll just point out that your title is missing a rather important letter (the 'x' for codex), and a good title is very important.

Your spelling is better, so I'll give you that, however, your rules still have the same fundamental problem.

Less is more.

Tactical squads don't need all those options. They are still tactical marines, the same as every other tactical squad in every other chapter. They use bolters and bolt pistols with a single heavy weapon and a single special weapon. There is no reason to give them artificer armour (doesn't fit the fluff, is broken, and just unnecessary), or really most of the options you've listed. McNinja's codex is a lot more reasonable, I'd use his for a template.

Your firedrakes are also quite broken. You took an ordinary terminator squad, gave them a second wound and made them a little more expensive. I won't even get into how broken that unit is, but instead I'll try and reason with you why the firedrakes don't need to be a special unit and can be represented by ordinary terminators from C:SM.

The firedrakes are the veterans of the Sallies. Like every single other chapter in existence, veterans are granted special status and are often incorporated wholely into the 1st company. They may be deployed as sternguard, vanguard, or as terminators of both flavours. Every single veteran from every single chapter is a combat expert, having fought in hundreds of battles across dozens of campaigns. Regardless of the chapter, they are all the exact same when it comes to representing them on the table top. The salamanders are no exception. The firedrakes are, for every intent and purpose, ordinary veterans. In terminator armour, they are ordinary terminators, and require no further stat changes or rule changes.

None.

Your Tu'Shan is also off for the reasons I pointed out in your previous attempt. He is a chapter master, and should have the exact same stat line with zero changes to represent his status as a chapter master. The Tu'shan in McNinja's codex is perfect.

I don't know why Master Argos can take thunderfire cannons for 85pts when they cost 100pts normally, and who's manning them? Just make him an ordinary master of the forge with one or two special rules, not 10 like you have.

Basically, all my points still stand from the last attempt, where you largely ignored the real advice telling what you're doing wrong in general. I can't fix every unit you post, because it still appears you have difficulty understanding how to make fair, balanced, and simple rules/units/characters.

Frankly, this thread is largely redundant with the success of McNinja's codex. I would advise you to watch how it unfolds and use it as a template for whatever is you wish to alter after.

Did not check the title as I tought it was right did not realise. he is (yes in salamander by nick kyme he mans 2 thunderfire cannons him self. Also in salamander he sets up lots of booby traps and climing rigs.
He dose not have ob or EW
I have put 1 more W on the firedrakes as it takes a lot longer to get there in the salamanders chapter.
Not a inssult but do you know there fluff.

I know the Salamanders fluff, and have read the trilogy. The difference between you and I is that I dont try and turn the obviously larger than life characters in the book and try and turn them into literal stats and rules.

Seriously. The books are not good sources for rules as they're intentionally written to be awesome.

Trust me when I tell you that your rules are broken and don't accurately reflect the real fluff. And no, the books aren't real fluff to be taken literally and turned into characters. Tu Shan is an ordinary chapter master, Argos is an ordinary master of the forge, Pyriel is an ordinary chief librarian, and the firedrakes are ordinary terminators.

So now I ask you; do YOU even know their fluff?

wargey wrote:

Not a inssult but do you know there fluff.

obvi you dont know basic space marine fluff so before you can call your self an expert on sallamanders you need to grasp the basics of a normal space marine chapter.

in short go learn more about normal chapters.

HereWeGoAgain.jpg

 Backspacehacker wrote:

wargey wrote:

Not a inssult but do you know there fluff.

obvi you dont know basic space marine fluff so before you can call your self an expert on sallamanders you need to grasp the basics of a normal space marine chapter.

in short go learn more about normal chapters.

HereWeGoAgain.jpg

I don't know about you, but I'm heading back to mine, and McNinja's fandexes. I've had it with this one.

wargey wrote:
Did not check the title as I tought it was right did not realise. he is (yes in salamander by nick kyme he mans 2 thunderfire cannons him self. Also in salamander he sets up lots of booby traps and climing rigs.
He dose not have ob or EW
I have put 1 more W on the firedrakes as it takes a lot longer to get there in the salamanders chapter.
Not a inssult but do you know there fluff.

Please stop trying to make things more powerful than they need to be.

By the "plus 1 wound because it takes longer to get there" logic, all Space Wolves should get plus 1 wound because if you have read their fluff it takes a lot more to get into the chapter than most (if not all) others.

Firedrakes are normal veterans. They are just like any other veterans. Just because they have a special name, they don't get extras. Wolf Guard (SW Termies) are just normal veterans (with SW army special rules of course), but they have a special name because it's chapter tradition. They also don't follow the codex astartes that much (and if I remember they were one of the biggest arguers against implementing it, along with the Imperial Fists), but that's something different all together. That's all it is.

So basically, remember that they aren't that special. You can cite some things that may say "They are very strong" or something but because we have a D6 system, even one jump in wounds or toughness or strength can make a big difference. Going from T4 to T5 for instance makes Marines go from taking wounds on a 4+ to a 5+ (with Bolters) for instance. That's a pretty big jump in practice, from what I have played. Just because it says they are "stronger than normal" they aren't strong enough to warrant S5+ or T5+ or more wounds or anything else.

Well, im gonna go back to McNinja's thread now hahahaha

To get to be in the firedrakes it takes longer than any other chapter as it takes longer to become a scout it takes longer to get your black carpce and longer to get to the first company
Fine but mark my words it will be better than yours in the end

wargey wrote:
To get to be in the firedrakes it takes longer than any other chapter as it takes longer to become a scout it takes longer to get your black carpce and longer to get to the first company
Fine but mark my words it will be better than yours in the end

Oh lawdy! Its almost as if you know nothing about any real background knowledge about space marines in general.

On a serious note, people here have and still are (though to a lesser extent because you continually ignore and refute people who have, undoubtedly, more experience than you in rule writing and fluff) trying to help you. But you absolutely cannot argue with someone when you don't have a basic understanding of how a regular chapter functions.

Firedrakes are ordinary terminators. Scouts in the Salalamders take a few extra years, but when you consider that the average space marine lives for a few hundred years, this difference is so absolutely minute it would make ZERO difference on the table top.

For literally every intent and purpose, firedrakes are ordinary terminators. If you seriously can't understand this incredibly basic fact about space marines, there is no helping you.

Thanks I'm just going to make it m self


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use my frends and people I know bye
Shity forum

wargey wrote:
Thanks I'm just going to make it m self


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use my frends and people I know bye
Shity forum

Good luck getting your friends to play your hilariously broken and complicated custom units.

And no, this forum genuinely tried to help you.

It was all you that ignored the advice and suggestions and continued to write rules that were even more broken. Don't blame others for your shortcomings.

wargey wrote:
To get to be in the firedrakes it takes longer than any other chapter as it takes longer to become a scout it takes longer to get your black carpce and longer to get to the first company
Fine but mark my words it will be better than yours in the end

From the looks of the other 2 threads, Im really doubting this. It took us 9 pages before to get any form of reasonable rules (and even then, it was still really strong and odd) and it took them....half a page to get a decent rule set out that could be plugged into any standing SM army and work really well.

Key difference being; I would play his or against his rules in an instant, while if your rules showed up at my FLGS you would get flamed so much (trust me, we are being VERY nice to you). Im honestly trying as hard as I can to get these points across to you, and teach you how this works so that we can get a good rule set. Honestly, I am. But when you seemingly ignore the advice these kind (and apparently talented writers) people give you it gets very demoralizing. Not once have I seen you directly reply to a comment giving good advice, and even then you usually ignored it. Believe me, if you can start getting out good, balanced, well written rules I will back you up.

Also, remember this. Stronger and more OP doesn't equal better in the end. I would much rather you over-cost (when you actually cost things) or under-power things than make them really strong and us having to make it weaker.

Honestly, if you need to PM me. I will back you up if you can show us you can make balanced units. NOT overly strong units with fluff reason why, that doesn't pass on the TT.

Has any one looked at my update. No 2 wound termies no diferance to most normal CM on Tu'shan no differance apart from wepons on argos (sory if what I said was insulting I just lost it.

 washout77 wrote:

wargey wrote:
To get to be in the firedrakes it takes longer than any other chapter as it takes longer to become a scout it takes longer to get your black carpce and longer to get to the first company
Fine but mark my words it will be better than yours in the end

From the looks of the other 2 threads, Im really doubting this. It took us 9 pages before to get any form of reasonable rules (and even then, it was still really strong and odd) and it took them....half a page to get a decent rule set out that could be plugged into any standing SM army and work really well.

Key difference being; I would play his or against his rules in an instant, while if your rules showed up at my FLGS you would get flamed so much (trust me, we are being VERY nice to you). Im honestly trying as hard as I can to get these points across to you, and teach you how this works so that we can get a good rule set. Honestly, I am. But when you seemingly ignore the advice these kind (and apparently talented writers) people give you it gets very demoralizing. Not once have I seen you directly reply to a comment giving good advice, and even then you usually ignored it. Believe me, if you can start getting out good, balanced, well written rules I will back you up.

Also, remember this. Stronger and more OP doesn't equal better in the end. I would much rather you over-cost (when you actually cost things) or under-power things than make them really strong and us having to make it weaker.

Honestly, if you need to PM me. I will back you up if you can show us you can make balanced units. NOT overly strong units with fluff reason why, that doesn't pass on the TT.

A-fething-men!

What the :beep:

wargey wrote:
Has any one looked at my update. No 2 wound termies no diferance to most normal CM on Tu'shan no differance apart from wepons on argos (sory if what I said was insulting I just lost it.

Tu'shan is still wrong.

Why can Argos take servitors at +5pts each when regular techmarines pay 10pts for the first and 15pts for each one after?

Before you write another rule for anything, go read through your codex. Learn ALL the units and the points cost for every single upgrade. Know why some upgrades are more expensive on some squads, and cheaper on others. Know the balance of the codex. Read through hundreds of army lists at various points levels. Read Space Marine tactics and battle reports.

Until you know the vanilla codex inside and out, backwards and forwards, you will struggle to make anything resembling balance.

If you feel like you want to make a really good codex, go learn all the other marine codices. Understanding those books is the first step to creating a balanced codex. If you don't know them, you won't even understand how to appropriately cost something. Go look at my post in McNinja's thread where I laid out the cost for Tu'shan by explaining every bit of wargear and how much it costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wargey wrote:
What the :beep:

Also, posts like this do nothing to add to your credibility.

 Blacksails wrote:

If you feel like you want to make a really good codex, go learn all the other marine codices. Understanding those books is the first step to creating a balanced codex. If you don't know them, you won't even understand how to appropriately cost something. Go look at my post in McNinja's thread where I laid out the cost for Tu'shan by explaining every bit of wargear and how much it costs.

Which is exactly why I prefer overcosting to undercosting.

Yes I am asking for help blacksails what should I do with Tu'Shan.

 LlamaAgility wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

If you feel like you want to make a really good codex, go learn all the other marine codices. Understanding those books is the first step to creating a balanced codex. If you don't know them, you won't even understand how to appropriately cost something. Go look at my post in McNinja's thread where I laid out the cost for Tu'shan by explaining every bit of wargear and how much it costs.

Which is exactly why I prefer overcosting to undercosting.

Yup! I like to think of it as a custom unit 'tax'. Much better to show up to a friendly game with a custom unit and find out after he was underpowered/overcosted/underwhelming and still have a fun game, than show up with a clearly broken unit and face roll. No one has fun in games like that.

How sould I cost him then I don't want moral story's. (Have enought of them from my dad.) Will you just put me back on track

wargey wrote:
Yes I am asking for help blacksails what should I do with Tu'Shan.

Wargey, this is my problem with you. I have outlined what needs to happen with him two different threads that I know you've been involved in. In your original thread I explained how he was broken and what to do fix him. Then in McNinja's codex, I explicitly laid out what I believed was a fair price and offered a few tweaks.

My problem is that I've done nothing but post long, well explained, well reasoned responses to you, and it simply gets ignored.

I'm not going to repeat myself when I've already spoken far more than I probably needed to on that topic, so I suggest you go re-read through your entire original thread, take notes (I'm being somewhat serious if you genuinely intend to make this) and then go read mine, Llama's, Backspace, and washout's responses in McNinja's thread, who have all posted solid feedback and provided unique ideas.

If you really want to do this, you will need to do all the work. You will need to go back and look at all the advice. Then go and learn your codices. Then go read some well done fandexes. Then go study tactics in game so you understand what's powerful and what isn't, and how units synergize with eachother.

He has what he should have (big differance form what it used to be) can I just have a rough outline for his price (is he broken.)

wargey wrote:
He has what he should have (big differance form what it used to be) can I just have a rough outline for his price (is he broken.)

Why doesn't he have a chapter master's statline?

If you had your codex out, you could add up all the wargear he has plus the base cost of a Chapter Master, and you'd have his cost (plus whatever points for any special rules). Honestly, go look at my comment in McNinja's thread about how I costed his Tu'shan.

Wargey: Your Tu'Shan isn't necessarily badly written, it is that you honestly are trying to hard at something you don't know. When I was younger I liked to try and fashion rules that I thought were cool and fluffy, but I truly didn't understand internal game balance. I mean no offense when I say this to you, but you don't make BALANCED characters. Even if you characters are not overpowered, they are weak, or just strange in a bad way. You need to have a decent grasp of the internal concepts of the game before designing things from it. Your problem is that you don't understand the core of the game, I understand you want to make something cool, but there is fluff for cool things, and there are rules for the tabletop. If you want to bring cool fluff into things, write battle reports for your battles, put all the names you want on the marine codex models. MAKE a Salamander army, name every unit, play with them, make narratives. Your creativity can be expressed in more than just attempting to put all the cool things into rules. All marines would have special acid spitting abilities, and a whole bunch of random crap in close combat that is represented by one value; Strength 4. These things are incorporated into the rules that already exist. Stop trying so hard, sit back and learn things, take the time to understand. You cannot instantly create a playable Salamanders codex that is balanced, and we honestly can't help you to do it. I am sorry you were not successful, but you have to move on, make more ideas, then come back. Don't overreact when adults and teenagers criticize, they think differently from you. Don't take offense at what we say, listen and learn your lesson about why it is valuable. Pick yourself up, do more research and keep working to build up a better sense of understanding about the game. Then come back and try to make a single balanced unit, or just change a rule to suit an army, not make an entire fandex.

Sc
Master Tu'Shan reagent of promeathus 285
Ws4. Bs4. S4. T4. W3. A3. I4. Ld10+
Master of the prye gaurd
He can take a unit of prye gaurd
Atsknf
Stuborn
Wargear
melta pistol
R:12 S8 Ap1. Pistol melta master crafted
Relic blade
Atificer amour
The mantle of the salamander's
Confurs a 3++ save.
Promeathean brandings

This actually does not seem so bad. However, I would do it like this:

Ws6. Bs5. S4. T4. W3. A3. I5. Ld10+. I bumped his WS, BS and I up. That way he has the same stats as a chapter master, witch is what he is. Trust me, those stats are good! Messing with S and T are things one usually should not do as those are the same for all marines. (There are some very few exceptions.)

Mind you I do not want to write the cost for the individual equipments as that is against GW policy. I will however write what I use as navigator to get the points right.

The cost of a regular chapter master, a relic blade and an artificers Armour are 175. I do not know how to "tax" stubborn, mantle of the salamander (an extra good iron halo, as the original chapter master comes with an iron halo) The melta pistol or the prometean branding.

So if we tax suborn 10 (to little?)

the mantle of the sallamander 5 points more then a storm shield (since you are not loosing an attack it is better) minus the cost of a belt of russ (the space wolf iron halo witch comes with a price (since we have already payed for the iron halo))

And we have the cost of a meltagun, say +5 to make it master crafted, and +5 to make it a pistol (essentially an extras attack if he does not use the relic blade)

Say 10 points for phromethius branding (I do not know the rules of phrometius branding...they are hard to price.)

We should not tax anything for being able to take pyre guard as a regular master would be able to take other people with him.

-

That ads up to 45. We add these 45 to the cost of 175 that we found out earlier and he should cost around 220 points by my calculations. He is powerful, he is cool. He ads a mean punch, has an excellent save and ads stubborn. He might however be a bit bland, but it is a good place to start.

Again while I would not advice you to download the badab war books, I would advice you to get your hands on one of them. They have several AMAZING characters there. They have a special character for the salamanders there caled "Captain Pellas Mir'San" and "Bray'arth ashmantle" a special dreadnough. Those are in the badab war 2 book. I am not shure if they survived or not. I would check them out!

Also, for you others, look Wargey is trying. He has tuned down his character and added a hefty cost. He has the will to listen to what you say and is actively trying to do so. He can't help his spelling. And making a codex is very hard, but fun and rewarding. Perhaps he does not want 100% fluff, that is why one makes fan codexes to make the game yours and have fun.

And to wargey, look to your regular marine codex if you have it and compare prices. Use those books as blueprints and then add or remove rules and add and remove costs. It is a mutch easier place to start looking. I like how you "tuned down" your original sugestion. But it is easier if you start drawing on the blueprints that are in the SM codex.

Thanks promeethan brandings give a 4+ fnp aginst all flamer based wepons
For 30 points he can take TDA if he dose he can have firedrake termies as troops
If he dose not sterngaurds become scoring
Have him at 230
What do you say

A terminator armour usually cost 40. He already has an artificers armour costing 20. How much should you tax for the terminator armour?

And while it is cool that he makes firedrake terminators troops if he takes the TDA remember that the TDA is not a bonus for him. He already has a 2+ save. He already has a 3++ save. Making him bulky and stopping him from running down models after a CC is not a better thing. However, he does get deep strike, and it is cool and fits his fluff (probably? I have not read it.) Keep it.

As for making firedrakes troops (we are talking terminators here right?) There are only 3 codex's that can do this currently. Space Wolves, who gets a bit shafted by it since all their terminator armours are very pricey and the wolf guards make sense fluff vice. Grey Knights draigo list. Makes no sense but it fits the grey knights elite fighting style. And dark angels who have always had it. I really do not want him to make firedrake troops or sternguards. Does it make sense in the fluff? Yes/No? How about he makes one unit of sternguard scoring of he is in his artificers armour and if he is wearing the TDA he will make one unit of firedrakes as troops? Or how about: He allows you to take a unit of firedrakes. These would have a diferent rule then regular terminators. I am just spittbaling and sugesting here. However I do not feel that converting all of those units to scoring as you have sugested is very fluffy. If you want to divert from the fluff then that is fine but then you are not making a salamander codex but making up your own chapter. This might suit you better?

Also, I think we should price 15 points for the troop things. Also, since he is home made we tax him another 10 points just to be on the safe side. Overcosted things are better then undercosted things. So that lands his price at 245.

Also, I do not like promeethean branding. I understand that salamanders have a resistance to heat, but there is a difference between not minding it so mutch and being fireproof. I do not know their fluff, but are they fire proff? If you sett a salamander on fire the flames die out? Also, why is the feel no pain at 4+? It should be at 5+ as the feel no pain rule is, Keep your design simple, not complicated.

These are just my thoughts. I am a bit bissy at the university so I will not be able to post here for some time. Remember keep a civil tone and make small design steps. People here will probably chip in. Just remember to take your time and this will not grow into the flame war the previous thread was. :-) Good luck.

Ok sounds good the sallies have a higher percentege of termies and elites and on armageddon the firedrakes worked as a seperate army to the rest of chapter with no normal troops. And my frends thinck it sould.