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Assuming a list does NOT have a flier of its own, or any units that possess the skyfire or interceptor rules. How important do you think it is to have an Aegis Defense Line, or some other fortification with a skyfire/interceptor weapon.

My list personally is C:SM and has plenty of weapons that can shoot snap shots at a flier if necessary, but it has no true AA.

This is a question that affects many players though, and I couldn't find a thread for it in the search so I'm opening up this discussion.

This question could also be approached as, "How essential is having proper Skyfire/Interceptor AA", but I am looking to add a ADL/Quad so that's the why I mention it specifically.

Mandatory? No

Really good idea and useful? Absolutely

Really doesn't get more definitive than that. I've beaten plenty of flyer lists with no aegis or flyer of my own. Mandatory-no, helpful-yes

As SM, taking the ADL with quad-gun is kinda silly.

Taking the ADL can be smart, list-specifically.

Taking Hyperios Air Defense Platforms though? Always a smart choice.

It's not even in the slightest.

It tends to hamper whoever takes it. They stay stuck behind it for most of the game, allowing my blasts and deep strikers to overwhelm.

Furthermore, your opponent can steal the gun if they can get base to base with it. I do it all the time, and then shoot my enemies fliers with their own gun as a way to saying thanks.

 juraigamer wrote:
It's not even in the slightest.

It tends to hamper whoever takes it. They stay stuck behind it for most of the game, allowing my blasts and deep strikers to overwhelm.

Well that's not true.

Nor is it an unbiased statement.

Saying "I could totally own you if you use it!" doesn't really help.

Fact of the matter is, the ADL is good for stationary elements of any army, provides cheap AA, and is a must-take for gunline armies.

YMMV

Thanks for the replies, I am happy to hear that it isn't necessarily an auto include.

My list has two dreads (rifleman and LC/ML) along with tactical combat squads and sometimes sniper scouts as a static sort of firebase, and two vindicators moving up w/ mounted Tac marines, a footslogging SS Term Libby w/ various escorts, and two typhoons using their speed and range as needed.

I feel like an ADL/Quad gun would be nice to give my Dreads 4+ and I could have a member of a Tac combat squad man the gun easily enough. But the rest of my army has no intention of castling up unless I am facing a charging horde like Nids or Orks.

A flyer could really wreck my Vindi's w/ side armor shots, but at the same time, if an opponent really commits to flyers then they should be a bit lacking in ground assets and I should be able to try and overwhelm them before the flyers make a big difference.

In my situation, do you think the ADL/Quad would be a good fit, if I can easily work the points in?

It depends on your list. Sometimes the ADL is a disandvantage, other times its an advantage.

For example, sticking 3 predators behind one is a fantastic idea. It makes them extremely hard to shift.

On the other hand, sticking your entire army behind one is just asking to be overrun by a daemon army.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
It's not even in the slightest.

It tends to hamper whoever takes it. They stay stuck behind it for most of the game, allowing my blasts and deep strikers to overwhelm.

Well that's not true.

Nor is it an unbiased statement.

Saying "I could totally own you if you use it!" doesn't really help.

Fact of the matter is, the ADL is good for stationary elements of any army, provides cheap AA, and is a must-take for gunline armies.

YMMV

I disagree with you on the ground that the ADL is not cheap at all.

50 points for some cover + 50 points for the quad gun is an instant 100 points sunk into stationary gun that doesn't do anything. To man the turret costs you a squad (cheapest squad in C:SM is scouts with BS3 STARTING at 75 points... so it's at least 175 points to make use of it. It can also be taken by your enemy.

I can't think of a single other unit I'd pay 175 points for that has one gun at BS3.... 4 shots or no.

Yea it's 100 points of telling your enemy where you are going to keep something, furthermore the gun can be killed easily by snipers or anything poisoned, and it gives the enemy cover as well under certain circumstances.

 En Excelsis wrote:




I disagree with you on the ground that the ADL is not cheap at all.

50 points for some cover + 50 points for the quad gun is an instant 100 points sunk into stationary gun that doesn't do anything. To man the turret costs you a squad (cheapest squad in C:SM is scouts with BS3 STARTING at 75 points... so it's at least 175 points to make use of it. It can also be taken by your enemy.

I can't think of a single other unit I'd pay 175 points for that has one gun at BS3.... 4 shots or no.

You're thinking about it in a very odd way.

50pts for 4+ cover save is fantastically cheap. It really helps keep vehicles and infantry alive. I don't know about you, but I don't tend to move my infantry with heavy weapons very often, so 50pts to give them 4+ save is a steal.

The quadgun is extra. It's a bonus. You also don't include the unit who's firing it in its price cost...you already have to take those. So adding them in you're using some weird bias. Adding another 4 TL autocannon shots to a PCS or CCS that already have an AC is great for 50pts. Especially when you take into account interceptor and skyfire.
Similarly, my LFs benefit from having 4 more Str:7 TL shots when pounding tanks and infantry alike.

Just for the record boys...

If your bringing 2+ units that must start in reserve, you should leave the quad gun at home and take a comm relay.
Nothing sucks more than having your 3 vendettas say off the board until turn 4, or all your flamers never come onto the board until the game is nearly over.

A comm-relay dramatically lowers the chances of this happening.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Just for the record boys...

If your bringing 2+ units that must start in reserve, you should leave the quad gun at home and take a comm relay.
Nothing sucks more than having your 3 vendettas say off the board until turn 4, or all your flamers never come onto the board until the game is nearly over.

A comm-relay dramatically lowers the chances of this happening.

Agreed, it's cheaper than an astropath too.

 En Excelsis wrote:


I disagree with you on the ground that the ADL is not cheap at all.

50 points for some cover

You mean 50 points for 4+, 2+ GTG cover for my entire army?

Yeah. That sounds worth it.

The price of flyers is bulit in with them not being on the board for a specific amount of time. Normally flyers are off the board for 1.444 turns (given 1/3 chance of not coming on turn 2 or 3). Adding in a comm-relay decreases the amount of time they are off the board to 1.13 turns.

This is critically important in a game that lasts 5-7 turns. Its not that each a single flyer decides to come on .444 into your turn, it means that 1/3 of the time your flyer misses two turns. If the game lasts only five turns, thats 40% of the game the flyer is not on the board! If your flyer does not come in until turn four, then your flyer is off the board for 80% of a five turn game!

As I said, the cost of flyers has those chances built in. By lowering the amount of turns the flyer is off the board, your effectively increasing the point-efficiency of your flyers! Therefore, if your bringing 2+ flyers in any game, you should always bring a comm-relay.

I can type this until I'm blue in the fingers, but you know the next time someone writes up a list they will slap in a quad gun.

Since most of my games had a near minimum squad camping an objective, camping behind a 4+ cover (or more, if they go to ground) AND at the same time being able to shoot an AA gun, yes, it's not mandatory but it sure helps!

I once tried a Scout Sniper squad w/ Telion manning an Icarus. Mathhammer says hes now got a S9 sniper Rifle...

however, I found myself at the mercy of a Manticore before I had a chance to test it effectively.

As a DA player if I'm writing a tourney list you can be certain that I'm taking Belial with a shooty termie squad, not only is that just a good unit in general it can take a ADL and turn it on the owner ridiculously easily. In a gunline army I can see the purpose, but unless your list is built around waiting for the enemy to come to you I don't see the use of it

The defense line is like anything else whether its worth its point value depends on army composition and play style. I run orks with 45 lootas and a screen of boys in wagons with a bubble wrap of grots around my Lootas so I do take a defense line in that specific list. It gives my normally squishy lootas a 4+ at normal be and for the cost of a single be point I get a 2+ so for me its worth it. YoIt makes necron flyer lists scream in rage so it good for some laughs too. Any ork list without a high loota counts do not see the line. You still have to remember to adjust for you opponents force composition. I have had more than a few opponents pack a big gunline begins a line when playing against my noise marines and thier 6 blastmasters and it is turned into a killing field with space marine bodies flying every which way. Bottom line the useability of the line cannot be easily defined as it is highly dependent on what else you are bringing to the table.

 IHateNids wrote:
I once tried a Scout Sniper squad w/ Telion manning an Icarus. Mathhammer says hes now got a S9 sniper Rifle...

however, I found myself at the mercy of a Manticore before I had a chance to test it effectively.

Seen this is effect.

Its really a "It will feth you up if you don't kill it" type of unit. the damage potential is absurd, especially when every one of Telion's shot is a called shot. every. single. one.

If you can screen him properly, you can dictate the flow of the game with this.

 IHateNids wrote:
I once tried a Scout Sniper squad w/ Telion manning an Icarus. Mathhammer says hes now got a S9 sniper Rifle..

huh?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I once tried a Scout Sniper squad w/ Telion manning an Icarus. Mathhammer says hes now got a S9 sniper Rifle..

huh?

Telion allocates his shots by choice.

The Icarus is a 96" range lascannon.

Telion fires this instead of his sniper. Still allocates his own shots.

In my IG, I love them. I sit my Platoon behind the ADL and have camp my deployment the whole game. It wasn't like that unit was going to be doing much moveing anyway.

More like the cowardice defense line if you ask me!

UltraTacSgt wrote:
Assuming a list does NOT have a flier of its own, or any units that possess the skyfire or interceptor rules. How important do you think it is to have an Aegis Defense Line, or some other fortification with a skyfire/interceptor weapon.

My list personally is C:SM and has plenty of weapons that can shoot snap shots at a flier if necessary, but it has no true AA.

This is a question that affects many players though, and I couldn't find a thread for it in the search so I'm opening up this discussion.

This question could also be approached as, "How essential is having proper Skyfire/Interceptor AA", but I am looking to add a ADL/Quad so that's the why I mention it specifically.

Fortifications aren't essential, but generally speaking I think you should assume they are the default option. In other words, I would be more looking for reasons not to have a fortification (of which there are many-- mech DE, Tyranids, etc.) rather than reasons to include one. Most armies, IMO, should feature an Aegis Defense Line, while some are better-served by an Imperial Bastion or no fortification at all. The Skyshield Landing Pad and Fortress of Redemption are interesting options but they are banned so often that I wouldn't bother considering them.

 More Dakka wrote:
More like the cowardice defense line if you ask me!

I don't think anyone asked you.

andystache wrote:
As a DA player if I'm writing a tourney list you can be certain that I'm taking Belial with a shooty termie squad, not only is that just a good unit in general it can take a ADL and turn it on the owner ridiculously easily. In a gunline army I can see the purpose, but unless your list is built around waiting for the enemy to come to you I don't see the use of it

Well, the ADL can have a place in a DA army. For this, I'd set up the ADL towards the center and put two Tacticals behind and a Cmd squad with the banner of devastation. Termies and Bikers could then be used to intercept enemy units threatening your front ranks.

It offers cover and doesn't take up a slot on the Force Org chart like the previous auto take KFF Mek. That adds a lot of value to any Ork army. SAG, another BikerBoss, MABoss . . .

I love my ADL, I almost always bring it along. Being able to place 4+ cover wherever you want it is very handy. The quad gun is just good extra dakka, something useful for a platoon commander to fire or a standard marine.

I use the old-school Tallarn models in my IG army. Last month I bought and painted up a ADL w/ quad gun and brought it to a tournament on February 2nd. Sadly, I found out that when I bent down and tried to get LOS on opponent's models I couldn't see past the damn wall. I could see through the low points where the walls came together but I couln't see through the little gun port thingies! My models, especially my low-slung lascannons, were just too short. I missed out on some good shots because of that.

The ADL must be designed for the newer IG plastics which are way bigger than my old metal Tallarns.

My ADL/quad gun are now gathering dust on the shelf.


Tallarn Commander
IG, "We are many. They are few."