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Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.
So?
Name one PLC that doesn't?
Big companies fething EXIST to make money. In fact, feth it,modern human beings exist to make money. It makes the world go round.
...
No, no. That's love that makes the world go round.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Maybe I would be but after spending thousands of dollars on GW stuff I do not consider 'just quit' to be an acceptable response.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it.
Yep.
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
Isn't that not already happening? GW increasing prices more quickly to compensate for their decreasing market share?
The paragraph was directed to all those people on the internet moaning about how evil GW and their prices are.
Oh.. I missed who it was you were replying to...
Ill just go and take my head for a gak over here then.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
"Nobody cares about anything but money" is a super grimdark idea. Even people who don't like GW's current direction don't claim that.
For my part, I've had multiple GW people advise me that I don't need a certain tool, or suggest that models X and Y might not be very effective together and maybe I should get slightly different ones. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to claim GW as a collective entity doesn't care about its customers. Maybe some parts don't care - and maybe some of those parts are high up the chain - but that's far from everyone.
It's also weird to say the only feedback that counts is money. No, spend money/not spend money is not great feedback. Very few people who run companies would want that to be their sole feedback mechanism, and many of them value that other feedback highly as it can be difficult to get.
People should absolutely send a message via not spending money, but absent any other form of feedback that is not necessarily something a company can interpret accurately. Ideally, they'd provide feedback to that company along with not spending the money. Otherwise, for all GW knows the reason they're not spending money is they have too few advertising-focused pages in White Dwarf or something.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: "Nobody cares about anything but money" is a super grimdark idea. Even people who don't like GW's current direction don't claim that..
Sure they do!
People only care about those that they genuinely empathise with, its not grimdark, its a sign of the times. If we got pent up and depressed every time we heard something distressing (babies are being born with AIDS/getting raped/bludgeoned to death against trees, in Africa as I type this) we would all be swinging as soon as we opened a newspaper.
I don't think its grimdark to suggest that as a result of this we are self centred, its just not that depressing to me. Its a normal behavioural trait for evolved Hominidae.
We don't know each other, you wouldn't sob with impotent rage if you checked bbc.co.uk tomorrow and you heard that I had been kidnapped by Al Qaeda sympathisers and nailed to a tree outside a kebab shop in Manchester.
You would just go "meh" the same as you do with every other awful story of death or misery. Oscar Pistorius girlfriend was lovely (I personally think its always far more tragic when attractive people die) but I don't get depressed about her untimely demise. gak happens, as long as I didn't do anything wrong, I don't feel guilt over it.
Why should money be any different?! And whats so grimdark about a happy medium? I mean, sure Ill buy a big issue once in a while, but I spend more on Mcdonalds in a year and that's frivolous. Why not give every single penny of your spare cash to hobos? Why spend money on warhammer? I mean, its only a hobby.. you should buy rice for Somalians instead of silly plastic toys!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Matty, I agree that a corporation's principal concern should be the bottom line. Where I disagree is on the direct and attitude GW takes with it's consumer. It's PR is terrible, it 'won't deal with the press', it approaches everything with a stance and position of absolute authority and no room for improvement. That sort of thinking died out for the majority of large companies when we put aside red braces and brick phones.
I can remember quite clearly some teething problems Virgin Trains had with their South West routes, down to Penzance. It was annoying as hell being a commuter. Then one morning I arrived at the station and on several billboards was a personal message from Richard Branson, openly admitting they had not done well, recognizing that they needed to improve and that this was being taken seriously and that we would be informed via these same boards as improvements were made, and he kept to that, we were informed of changes as they took place.
I now travel Virgin whenever I can. I understand I am a paying customer, not a drinking buddy, but I appreciate that Virgin's corporate mindset holds my custom and my money in better regard than some of the other companies. Better relations and a better corporate image aren't giving away stuff or unrealistic for companies, they are 'enlightened self interest'. They bring about customer loyalty and increase your customer base by reputation.
It's a fairly basic business practice that GW thinks is horse gak and that they can instead just stand up and tell us 'we make the best model soldiers in the world so buy our very expensive stuff... oh and don't answer back'...
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it.
Yep.
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
but its my time to waste, and my choice to waste it
Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America!
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
If you are going to complain / comment on the tone of posts - I don't think calling people Trolls, whiners and dregs of the community sets a very good example at all.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
You are being hypocritical. You are raging, for pages of this and other threads, at people for raging.
Your argument is infantile and nonsensical, you can still make a purchase and not think 'everything is sunshine', you can refrain from purchasing and still provide commentary on the reasons why you would not, potential customer feedback is (or should be...) as valid to a business as ongoing customer feedback. Lost customer feedback should be VERY valuable to a company.
Also, it is very easy to participate in the hobby whilst not purchasing, buy dint of having made thousands and thousands of pounds worth of purchases...
If you are going to endlessly post in these threads, start elevating your position above poorly constructed vitriolic flamebait.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Burying your head in the sand never helped anyone.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Burying your head in the sand never helped anyone.
"If all else fails: duck. As a defensive stratagem it's unreliable, but incredibly reassuring for a moment or two. "
Andrej Helsreach
Ducking out of the way momentarily and ignoring a problem all together are two entirely different matters!
Still an amusing quotation though.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
To stick to your metaphor: I am pretty sure that hundreds of people yelling at the oil would not have made it turn back either
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
To stick to your metaphor: I am pretty sure that hundreds of people yelling at the oil would not have made it turn back either
The oil wasn't the issue. Massive incompetence on the part of the company running the rig was. No one is saying GW detractors should be yelling at the plastic.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
I think the thing is that lots of people come to the forum to complain, fair enough.
However, when it seeps into and impedes others ability to enjoy is when it is a problem.
If I want to talk about something, or how I can use something better, 3 pages of matt ward complaining is not really aiding and is in fact not helping me get the support I was looking for from the community.
There have been many attempts to try and get useful assistance and in general I just stop. Constantly getting insulted for my preferences, or stating that I like something contrary to internet opinion gets you treated like garbage.
When all I want to do is enjoy my hobby being treated like an idiot for liking it, or being told I am an idiot for buying it really takes my enjoyment down.
Then again misery loves company so I can understand why they want to make people as upset as they are.
And if you try and say that "It's the internet why should you care" Yea....doesn't work like that. Keep believing it though.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
You know, Stephen Covey did pretty okay with this book called 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the core tenets of that book is exactly that: change what you can directly affect and don't worry about the things ourside your sphere of control that you can't affect change upon.
The oil wasn't the issue. Massive incompetence on the part of the company running the rig was. No one is saying GW detractors should be yelling at the plastic.
Yes, but we are in the United States, where it's much easier to yell at the gun than at the person weilding it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 20:26:53
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
You know, Stephen Covey did pretty okay with this book called 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the core tenets of that book is exactly that: change what you can directly affect and don't worry about the things ourside your sphere of control that you can't affect change upon.
The oil wasn't the issue. Massive incompetence on the part of the company running the rig was. No one is saying GW detractors should be yelling at the plastic.
Yes, but we are in the United States, where it's much easier to yell at the gun than at the person weilding it.
Covey's successful people would not just lay down and accept tow the line nonsense. Your twisting the context of what he said to fit this particular situation. Highly successful people do not bury their heads in the sand, or just forget about, the things that matter to them.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
As I said in another thread, irrational circle jerks of hate kinda define the interwebz. And make no mistake -- some of what goes on in forums here and elsewhere are exactly that. They certainly aren't all mature "constructive criticism."
Once you accept that, you just make decisions about your involvement. I avoid some sports forums that I frequent after my teams take a bad loss, because I know the reactionary idiots will create an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio. After a few days, things will calm down and the conservations will get calmer and more interesting again.
IMO, Dakka is on a negative swing regarding GW right now in its natural cycle of ebbs and flows. Not that it ever gets cheerily positive regarding GW around here, but it has been more balanced at times. I think the recent trend is a shame, because I think people are missing some of the good things that GW's been doing lately...especially the majorly amped-up release cycle and the back-to-back-to-back replacement of three of the blandest codicies that GW's ever produced. But if the conversations I'd like to have are limited, then I'll just limit the time I spend here. I don't take it personally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 21:24:49
As I said in another thread, irrational circle jerks of hate kinda define the interwebz. And make no mistake -- some of what goes on in forums here and elsewhere are exactly that. They certainly aren't all mature "constructive criticism."
Once you accept that, you just make decisions about your involvement. I avoid some sports forums that I frequent after my teams take a bad loss, because I know the reactionary idiots will create an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio. After a few days, things will calm down and the conservations will get calmer and more interesting again.
IMO, Dakka is on a negative swing regarding GW right now in its natural cycle of ebbs and flows. Not that it ever gets cheerily positive regarding GW around here, but it has been more balanced at times. I think the recent trend is a shame, because I think people are missing some of the good things that GW's been doing lately...especially the majorly amped-up release cycle and the back-to-back-to-back replacement of three of the blandest codicies that GW's ever produced. But if the conversations I'd like to have are limited, then I'll just limit the time I spend here. I don't take it personally.
I'm... I'm not sure if that last bit is sarcasm or not.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Lets also not forget that no GW discussion without fanboys, white knights and clueless defenders jumping in at every opportunity and claiming "they do it too" when compared to other companies....
Its not all one sided as you make it out be.
Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...
But we also had the PR storm from Spots the Space Marine.
A $35 FAQ and second flier release for one army while others have yet to get 1.
A DA codex with terrible proof reading.
But what do I know? Apparently I'm only hating GW to try and be one of the cool kids or something like that.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
This is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. How exactly can we have an honest discussion with posts like this? It's hyperbolic, puerile, and does nothing but help poison any actual discussion trying to take place.
The fact you wish to ignore this post and claim how can we have an honest discussion shows how much YOU are part of the problem, as you claim folks that dislike GW do.
You claim its all those things, yet completely IGNORES the fact that what GW has done in the past plays a huge role on why someone like that says it. Gw's own actions have caused rather large rifts AND rather hurt feelings(or worse) on its fan base.
The fact is that what the poster said adds much to the discussion. The fact that you wish to white wash it away as unhelpful completely shows my point on your OP. How can we have an honest discussion when you dont want to discuss things like, yes, GW's actions seem to show that they do not exactly like their customer or fan base. Or even not its fan base- the fiasco of Spots the Space marine is a rather large example of its distain of things not of itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 22:04:26
Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
You know, Stephen Covey did pretty okay with this book called 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the core tenets of that book is exactly that: change what you can directly affect and don't worry about the things ourside your sphere of control that you can't affect change upon.
.
Psssh pansy logic.
Here is what is best in life:
And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/20 22:15:00
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
If you are going to complain / comment on the tone of posts - I don't think calling people Trolls, whiners and dregs of the community sets a very good example at all.
No, but on the plus side it does help definitively determine the true purpose of a thread and it's poster as part of the problem rather than an innocent soul looking for a solution.
Intriguing thread, though I've arrived too late to say anything insightful that hasn't been said already.
I'll add that perhaps what the OP was trying to say (badly in my view), that some GW threads descend into negativity fairy quickly...
...but that point of view was somewhat marred by suggesting that people making constructive criticism were the ones responsible for the negativity.
I don't quite know what point he was trying to make, but for my part, if you want to escape negativity there are plenty of other threads to go and hang out in. P&M Blogs is a favourite of mine when I'm tired of trying to fathom GW's world view.
