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 adamsouza wrote:
Part of me still expects to see a huge Medge image at the bottom of every thread, and is a little confused when I don't.

Maybe the maelstrom gobbled up the advertisers, one could only hope .

Post traumatic advertising syndrome? PTAS is a real thing, adamsouza here is proof.. apparently..

It gobbled them up from the core of the galaxy, I'm sure there's still some adverts that survived by fleeing to the fringe of the internets.. maybe reddit and 4chan

So, managed to play Imperial Assault again. Here's what I said about it over on another post:

Well, we did manage to get through the tutorial, aftermath, AND spice run. The heroes did fine during the tutorial. They nearly had the consoles blown in aftermath, maybe 5 total health remaining between the last two, they could have had it with just a couple more activations.

Spice run was similarly close. Everything on my side was dead except for some trandoshans I spawned that same turn. The E-Web gunner that spawns when you enter the spice room managed to knock Jyn Odan down and out before being demolished by Finn (it took two shots at him too, but both came up about a space short =/). But that action was apparently enough. Finn had to scoop up the access card on his way to the other door to let the wookies in to make an attempt on the last spice barrels. The party managed to seize 5/6 barrels but ran out of actions and activations on that last turn.

I believe we have to run the mission indicated by the text in Aftermath if we play again next month... which would mean the poor rebels would have to survive waves of imperials assaulting them, including Vader himself! Dun dun DUNN.


Still proving to be a fun game, glad I purchased it.

Additional observations... Jyn Odan is squishy. She's got some defense/escape mechanics, especially after she starts getting XP, but you've got to be on the ball when it comes to using them. I focused fire at Jyn in both games and she had to retreat to heal in the first, and got taken out in the second. It's entirely possible that she could have clinched either game if she hadn't retreated/gone down. I think the first game involved more of an issue with the players being too defensive/caring in regards to Jyn, had they been more aggressive... even if Jyn got dropped in that game another round of shooting was almost all they needed to win. In the second game, well... having an injured character pop open a door is turning out to be a bad idea in most scenarios, it seems. Though the party was pressed for time and probably had no other choice.

Gharkan (however you spell it, the Wookie...) is freaking *brutal*. Red dice seem to have a larger number of sides with a higher number of hits, and his ability to charge plus attack makes him even better at clearing out clusters of troops than Finn. They got him the extended haft item too, or whatever you call it, so now he's got reach! It's like having a high strength two-handed weapon fighter in D&D with cleave all over again!

I managed to get my tiles organized into bags which helped speed things up a little bit. I'd still like a slightly more optimized traveling storage solution.... I've had a, hmm, what do the UK people call it... a brainwave? Might look into ditching the imperial assault box (though it *is* nice) and customizing one of my plano pistol cases (specifically purchased for figures, I'm more of an edged weapons kind of guy) to hold the set. Gonna have to check that out after this...


The guy that runs the RPG/D&D kind of games during the game days is apparently moving/changing shifts/etc so I could probably step in to do that moving forward, but its kind of fun to do boardgames like imperial assault and x-wing too. Trying to decide what would be more fun. Not even sure which edition of D&D I would run... Frankly 4th edition would likely be the easiest in terms of...well ... almost everything I know a lot of people don't have any love for it but the combat runs smoother than 3.whatever/pathfinder, and while some of the more esoteric things that were technically neat about 3.xx/pathfinder don't really make it into 4th edition... for a 4 hour session that only happens once a month... it almost makes the most sense out of the systems that I own.

Obviously continuing to play Imperial Assault would be fun, and at least one or two of the other people seemed to be willing to do so.

On the other hand... I could derive some pretty serious painting motivation out of running a D&D game, and once a month would almost be something I could manage to keep up with (especially once the pool of heroes was covered and I could focus on new monsters and set dressing).

I've wanted to play at least once for a long time, but I'm not really burnt out on running games either, it's kind of in my nature.. I tend towards support roles. So while as a player this would lead to me being the cleric/whatever, as a gamer in general it tends to make me the DM


HRMRMRMR......


Anyway. Thanks for reading, I'll pop in a few pictures of Imperial Assault from today in a little bit, though I was busy going over new rules and stuff and so I didn't have many opportunities to take new photos.

Is this ia finished grim?

Oh, yup. I'll get some pictures of the whole thing when I get a chance to do so with good lighting.

Pretty much out of bases but still trying to decide on what to paint next... I guess it'll depend on if I decide to try to run some kind of D&D or keep pressing on with IA.

Running a D&D game seems fun!

It can be, especially now that I have so many heroes and monsters! Grah... I'd need tiles, wont' have those till dungeon saga comes out. Could get some other stuff sorted though.

And really, planning a 3-4 hour game per month isn't really that time consuming... though it would be more so if I tried to paint all the models to fit too

Adding some photos from imperial assault here in a moment.

Looking forwards to that!

Initial deployment for Aftermath. You can see the players were thinking defensively here as they stashed the weaker characters behind the wookie and soldier. They look outnumbered but...


As you can see... they quickly swept the defenders. They actually got trapped outside by a blast door for a round which is probably a solid part of why they didn't claim victory. I spawned a heavy gunner behind them but the crate they looted had a com scrambler thing and he got tapped before he could act.


Even more dead imperials later... nothing stays alive long for these guys, but the halls were figuratively stacked with bodies such that the rebels just didn't make it to the consoles as quickly as they could have.


Here's the last round, maybe at the very end. If they just had another shot or two... but alas, time ran out.

More coming in a moment.

It's been more than a moment

Here's the initial setup for the side mission Spice Run, in which the party is recruited by chewbacca on a potentially lucrative raid on a hutt spice facility. The party could win the friendship of chewbacca as an ally in the future, or abort the mission if they ran out of time.


So, here you can see my initial forces wiped out rapidly, with some storm troopers spawned to help delay the rebels. Jyn has claimed the keycard and Mak has taken advantage of his positioning to snag a crate (back when he didn't have any shots).


Jyn is pretty banged up, you can't see her here, as she's behind the door about to open it. You can see that Gharkan and Chewbacca have obtained a couple of spice barrels already, but will they have time to snag them all?


And *this* is what happens when a wounded character opens the door to the spice room. This round marked the fall of Jyn Odan which quite possibly lost the rebels the game.


Aside from a shot taken by Mak, the trandoshans I spawned on the last turn were practically ignored as the rebels desperately tried to snag the spice before the hammer dropped and they were forced to retreat. Fynn scooped up the card and made it to the door to let the wookies through, but there was one action too few to pick up all three barrels so we called it. Had Jyn been around, she could have gotten the door and Fyn could have grabbed the last barrel. Of course, any of those three interaction rolls could have failed, but chances of success were pretty high.




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Bah, Theo... You have kid's don't you? Toddler happened

Still trying to decide if it would be more fun to take over monthly RPG runner position at the library gameday (totally made up and unofficial title btw ) or to keep at Imperial Assault.

You could always run a Star Wars RPG using the imperial assault figures. I remember playing in many Star Wars campaigns, even though I didn't know much about the universe.

Toddlers turn into preteens , then all is lost.

 GrimDork wrote:
Additional observations... Jyn Odan is squishy. She's got some defense/escape mechanics, especially after she starts getting XP, but you've got to be on the ball when it comes to using them. I focused fire at Jyn in both games and she had to retreat to heal in the first, and got taken out in the second. It's entirely possible that she could have clinched either game if she hadn't retreated/gone down. I think the first game involved more of an issue with the players being too defensive/caring in regards to Jyn, had they been more aggressive... even if Jyn got dropped in that game another round of shooting was almost all they needed to win. In the second game, well... having an injured character pop open a door is turning out to be a bad idea in most scenarios, it seems. Though the party was pressed for time and probably had no other choice.

Jyn is my preferred hero when playing the campaign. Yes, she is a little squishy, but her mobility and ability to deny the Imperial player actions via Quick Draw make up for it. Quick Draw gets even better once you get the Cheap Shot card because it adds a static +1 damage to Quick Draw. Once you get the Get Cocky card, you can recover the 2 strain or become Focused after defeating an enemy. Using the Trick Shot card with Quick Draw means you can attack and potentially kill an enemy figure within three spaces from Jyn (regardless of LOS), and then move afterward one space using Opportunist (if the enemy takes damage) and two more spaces if you have Sidewinder. Then, if an Imperial player attacks her, she can move another space with Quick As A Whip.

She is an Imperial killing beast once she gets a good weapon like the DL-44 or the Deathhammer.

Gharkan (however you spell it, the Wookie...) is freaking *brutal*. Red dice seem to have a larger number of sides with a higher number of hits, and his ability to charge plus attack makes him even better at clearing out clusters of troops than Finn. They got him the extended haft item too, or whatever you call it, so now he's got reach! It's like having a high strength two-handed weapon fighter in D&D with cleave all over again!.

Yes, red dice have the most hits but the least amount of surge and Gaarkhan can be nasty if he has a good weapon because he's pretty mobile using Charge and he can hit like a truck. Diala can be even more brutal once she gets a good weapon and Way of the Sarlacc as it lets her take two strain and attack every adjacent hostile figure, one at a time. If she has a weapon with a Cleave surge, she can dish out unmitigated damage to other figures. She also has the ability to cancel a target's defense roll with Precise Strike she needs to deal damage to finish off a foe and if she has Snap Kick she can attack a figure with one green die that will do a minimum of one damage.

Damn if talk about D&D doesn't get me interested. I would vote for that. I too found 4th edition had a lot going for it, especially if you had a lot of newbies or videogamers at the table as it is a lot easier for them to relate to.

Interested to see where you end up.

That's possible. Interestingly enough, I always thought 4th edition would be pretty modular in terms of use for different settings... simply mix and match abilities from the classes and rename them appropriately. Suddenly the ranger's shoot in two directions attack becomes quick shot and its to do the same thing with a blaster pistol. Even some of the spell abilities of the casters would work out as grenades or bacta medkits etc. Though I'm not 100% if the D&D players would want to play starwars at this point.

It's definitely a thought. Got a large pool of scifi minis to draw from to flesh that setting out too.

ScootyPuffJunior, thanks for the insight, I haven't really be doing a lot of looking and thinking about the characters, just throwing stuff in the bag and taking it to the gameday.

What you said about Jyn is actually part of why I'm so hard on her, that interrupt can be nasty and she is quite slippery, but still has low health and endurance. They've decided to pool all their money to buy her the combat armor upgrade just because I'm so mean to her

Diala does seem pretty useful, though I think right now they're drawn to Gharkan's straightforward brutality and prowess.


@Archer, I only ever played one or two really brief campaigns with 4th, but it seemed to have a lot of potential. Also, the multiclassing seemed pretty modular so you could really tweak your character. And none of this well you're a lvl 10 fighter lvl 5 wizard so basically all of your spells are useless beyond some slight utility etc blah blah stuff. 4th multi lets you just take a power and it's right in line with your other moves. Lets you have classes that have dabbled into other disciplines to pick up sneaky tricks, show off demonic heritage by snagging a warlock power, or still eventually show off a true dual disciplined character with enough of the feats.

I never looked into the supplements, I'm sure they add some useful classes but with some ability tweaks or swaps to other classes... pretty sure the core set can cover a *lot* of ground.

Heck, I could even expand it a bit to a more generic scifi setting to easier shoehorn in more of my minis

But then you lose the starwars crowd. Plus they may be pretty hardcore into the fantasy aspect too.. hard to say.


I think, at this point at least, I'll probably prepare to bring imperial assault for next time and then see what those others end up doing... see what they'd be willing to play.

I played quite a bit of 4th when it was going strong, and the setting books for it are quite nice really. I like the Underdark and Darksun ones.

It plays pretty well up to about level 10 I think, after that you need to start thinking a lot about encounter design and it's easy to have "flat" encounters. Up to that point it's fun high fantasy shenanigans.

I've recently been running a 5th edition game for the kids in my school, and I really enjoy it. I don't have many tiles right now (just the original DKH tiles) so I picked up some of the old big battlemaps for D'n'D Minis (the Fantastic Locations series). The good thing about 5th is that it doesn't need a grid for play, so I just use a 1 inch to 5ft scale and let people move freely. This means I can easily put maps together using my existing wargames terrain with the added bonus of things looking cooler in three dimensions. Also helps to keep the game flowing. I'm also using a small hand held dry erase whiteboard (bonus of working in a school where we have stacks of them) and just quickly drawing maps onto that, which works really well and lowers the prep time significantly.

If you feel like it, and especially if you are running for new players, I'd recommend giving 5th edition a look unless you are really keen on 4th. I am really enjoying running it. Been painting up a lot of Descent and D'n'D Boardgames figures for use in the games too. I find it's really nice to paint diverse groups of miniatures rather than the grind of doing an army with huge numbers of troops. Keep us informed, I'd love to read about your campaign on here!

I would consider 5th edition but that would mean I'd have to buy MOAR BOOKS!

You're my de facto 5th edition expert, how many books do I need? PHB, DMG, MM like usual?

Surely 4th encounters can't be worse than 3rd by the time you hit epic levels.. man. It was like ok let's see here I'll make a wizard that can't be too hard right? Oh wait ridiculous epic feats to sort through. Crazy spells I have to craft by hand.. wait a minute.. generating lvl 21+ characters that take closer to hours than minutes but still die to a couple of swipes from the party's fighter... uhh no. That got tedious lol.

Even if they got a level after every session though, the group would only meet at most 12 times in a year, even if I *could* get there every time. Leveling up too far shouldn't be a problem for any system.

I'd probably have to do the inch conversion thing too, pending system. I've done it in the past and it does give you a lot of freedom of movement.

As far as the campaign goes, that would be the fun/challenging part. I'd need a structure that allows for hot-swappable heroes from week-to-week (kind of like the pathfinder guild system, I guess), and adventures that started and closed within the 4 hour window. I'd probably take care of leveling up characters on my own time for future adventures.

Really, it would end up running kind of like a campaign tree of scenarios/missions/nodes kind of like Imperial Assault but with less structure as I'd be making it up for my own use and not to guide someone else to run it. Given that each session might have different heroes and that the growth happens between sessions, I could have an overarching plot that the characters took part in and ultimately brought to conclusion. It would probably have to be something big and kingdom/world ending to help tie the disparate characters together.

I'd probably base the campaign on my largest continent though my tastes have kind of mutated over the years and I'd probably need to do some housekeeping and mild retconning, but not much. A few name changes, mostly. The continent is wider in terms of east/west than north/south with a range of mountains/crags/bad terrain and heavily forested/jungle area running across the middle. The badlands (full of monsters and other bad stuff, tribes of cannibals and what have you, maybe even dire animals/dinosaurs) generally do nothing but spit out the bones of fools who try to cross. The eastern side is kind of shrouded in mystery from most of the rest of the world, it's kind of my generic eastern/Asian themed sandbox area that's never really seen any light shone on it, and probably wont just yet either. The western side though, is full of kingdoms, probably divided up into 5-7, I forget the exact count. There's an obligatorily evilier kingdom, the obligatorily goodygoody kingdom, and several in between. Some are more magic friendly than others.

I'm not sure what exactly I'd have go down that was so earth-shaking as to force adventurers and heroes from all the kingdoms to work together to solve it.. but that's probably what I'd have to do. The rest of the continents are less fleshed out or particularly themed. Naroth is right out, it's full of undead and ghosts and ruled by vampires and liches, the humans that live there are pretty downtrodden though some can make a decent living... others are practically cattle. A couple of the other continents really need revamped entirely, I had one that was primarily a desert but that's just kind of dumb in retrospect, any continent is big enough to have a desert on it's own if it's the right distance from the equator, in range of the shadow of mountains, etc etc... so that one needs fixed. I suppose I *could* use the large arpeggio that comprises a small independent nation of wizards. They have a big extradimensional super-tower that serves as a city, and I'm thinking that the few remaining orcs in my setting probably live on the islands fishing and fighting for the wizards from a long-ago pact. Oh there's the polar continent too, with its freezyness, but again, potentially not the best setting for the adventure.

Either the western kingdoms of the biggest continent or some kind of big job from the caster nation, I think...


And this is all if I don't just keep running imperial assault


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Also, no lie, being able to tie in miniatures to paint will play no small part in my decisions on the potential campaign

What books you would need would really depend on what you wanted to do. You can get a basic bestiary and DM rules for free from Wizards in PDF form, and you can get a basic PHB (rules for Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling and Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard) from them too. I'd recommend the full PHB though, so that's at least 1 book. Apart from that, the free monsters are comprehensive enough, I guess, and it's easy to make new ones. I do really like their monster manual. But I reckon any system can do this sort of thing.

As for campaign structure, it so happens that I've been running a game like that in Pathfinder for a year or so now.
I was inspired by these two bloggers:
Justin Alexander
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1223/roleplaying-games/opening-your-game-table
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/5/roleplaying-games/re-running-the-megadungeon

and
Ben Robbins
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/

Really recommend reading the linked articles and their follow ons if you haven't, I found it to be really great stuff.


We based ours on a "Delving Company" in the fantasy city of Ptolus by Monte Cook. My co-GM and I essentially run two separate megadungeons which exist under the city. He's running Rappan Athuk, and I'm running a hodgepodge of homebrew and pre-written stuff all chopped up into one mega-complex. We let the players know when we're available to GM, and people sign up. To start with I had a few plot hooks and "jobs" to get them exploring the dungeon. Every so often I drop another couple in, but over the months the players have been mostly self directed. Each session starts with the players heading down to achieve some goal in the dungeon, even if that goal is just "Explore the second level of the buried temple complex". After however long or at the point when the players feel they are done, we call it a night and everyone goes back to the tavern. This is important as it produces an episodic playstyle that means players can drop in and out with no fuss. XP is awarded for exploration (because that is what I want to encourage) per session, so some more regular players are higher level than some less regular. If the level difference gets too high (more than 3 levels) I award 33% bonus XP to the lower players if they survive.

It's been a real breath of fresh air for our gaming, and it's allowed us to get a lot of gaming in (over 80 sessions in a year!) by having more than 1 GM and a large pool of players ensuring there is a game every week at least. You do lose that element of "designing for your group" (I make everything ahead of time in a naturalistic way so sometimes there is a mismatch between a challenge and a group, but that has produced some interesting sessions!) and I don't balance for level, so it's easy enough for the players to get in over their heads (I give some cues usually, but if they ignore them they can die ) and plot development and persistent NPCs have sort of taken a backseat to dungeoneering, but all the same we've had great character development and we are forming a basic plot over time.

Big block of text! Sorry. GMing is my real gaming passion

I like the sound of your fantasy world though. I have never really gotten a convincing homebrew off the ground- the prep needed always leads to burnout! Your world sounds like it could adapt this sort of structure to a "hexcrawl" style game as Ben Robbins describes (although he doesn't use hexes per se!)

Hmm... Well...

Too long.

Didn't read.



J/k Reading it over now

2edition or nuthin. I'm oldschool. Plus the group I played with for a year or two had been together mostly for 20 years playing it. They had a whole world developed and played every Thursday night. I can now safely say (since it all broke up and all records have been expunged from the internet that I can find), that they audio recorded the game sessions and pod cast them. Seriously they had like 10 years of games on cassette tapes. They finally went digital and then stupid happened after I left due to work.

It was great times.

Yeah, I'm good for making my own monsters if I've got a few stock cases to get the gist of their design. Maybe not amazing at it, not trying to say that, but capable of doing so, yes.

Ahh reading through the first link, the megadungeon/gold-rush town combination does sound fairly appealing. I mean... the tables are all worked out for 3.5(th/rd?) edition but I even wrote a wee little program to basically make generic minidungeons, monsters, and loots just for this kind of thing... sort of forgot about it.

Huh, really good reading, thanks for sharing the links. I've gotta cut myself off or I'll lose sight of some other projects I've got going on today, but good stuff. I think I'd be just as happy making random dungeons for every session... but then again the "semi static" megadungeon *is* pretty cool.

I've been skimming a bit, but it looks like the Blogger's basic concept of execution is to make one large interconnected dungeon, give it several entry points, and then half flesh it out with coherent encounters. The next step is to develop random encounter tables that add just enough fights to flesh out the other half of the theoretical necessary level of action. In so doing, when a party returns after resting for a period of time (like weeks/months instead of overnight) or another party comes through... some of the encounters may have been 'permanently' vanquished, others may have been effectively saved from the previous party (as in, they locked a monster in a room, if the new party opens that room... boom same monster), and others will be random encounters that get woven into the story on the fly.

Thinking... probably way too far ahead... this kind of persistent megadungeon with not necessarily persistent occupants and adventurers... I could actually build the thing in 3d without bothering to make anything but the furniture and occupants modular... Interesting.

Damn...


@Theo, haha, interesting stuff I like *some* things about the earlier editions of D&D, I mean I have many hearts for baldurs gate and icewind dale etc... but I'm more familiar with newer rulesets.


Having said that... the seeming callousness of those rules may make a comeback in the support of the megadungeon... I mean the players won't be the same each month, the characters won't be the same each session... may as well let me kill them off

As the players eventually push through cavern after cavern, as some of them retire due to injuries (broken limbs and such) and maybe volunteer to become guards and watchfolk for the upper levels... as outposts get established on lower levels so future parties can start further down... eventually it will take dozens of players and possibly generations to clear the way to the bottom of the dungeon, to help the safety of the region and dredge up the rewards of the place.

Damnit all to hell... really starting to get into this again...

You could even do a "megadungeon" in a sci fi setting- delving the depths of the underhive/ancient techno-complex/crashed space colony to find lost tech!

And on callousness - yes, yes it does encourage it. And it is wonderful. We've had 20+ deaths.

Bwahaha, well I usually keep the kid gloves on for a couple of levels but if I'm the one making all of the characters anyway...not like they can't be recycled!

Also if character death is acceptable.. it lets me worry less about the difficulty tweaks.. maybe the encounter *is* too hard for the players unless an extra couple of guys show up... but they'll just have to run away or become resourceful about it. I think after the first player dies, they'll all come to realize running is more acceptable

Scifi dungeon could work too, but I assume these guys will want to play fantasy anyway. It's almost a shame I backed battle systems scifi and not battle systems fantasy TBH. The fantasy set got more polish and seemed much more versatile, but ahh well. I think the real problem with me making convincing dungeon terrain would more lie in transportability and overrunning my ability to store it all!






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Also just reread your post, Da Boss, kind of went right into the articles, that open table concept does sound fun. If I could get settled into a position to let people know I'd be running a game on x time y date, I could see myself doing it too.

I've been thinking about XP... I'm thinking to level some characters up as they survive one or more delves, and depending on the amount of players that show up, letting them pick from certain pools. It may be the same group shows up consistently, and then they can all have the same guys no worries... but if it was like 3-6 people and only some of them were the same each time... keep 6 people with lvl 1 characters and have smaller parties take the vets out.. maybe.

Sheesh... I'm already looking up prices on the DMG and PHB.. you guys are a bad influence... On the bright side amazon has them under prime for like half price, $25 a pop for what I know will be high quality books and interesting reading regardless of how much I end up using them.... much smaller pill to swallow than nearly a hundred bucks for a GW big black/red book nowadays...


In other news, I think I may have come up with a single box storage solution for Imperial Assault. If the storage portion works out I think I'm gonna paint it a bit to give it some character... I'll elaborate more as I figure out if my idea will get off the ground.

Hope the storage idea is a giant tacklebox that you can add tracks to and turn it into a jawa sand crawler.

Bwahaha! Nah, it's just a plano 4 pistol case, but I have it in mind to spray the thing silver, seal it, spray it black with the airbrush instead of rattlecan and not seal it for a week or two so it gets naturally scuffed up revealing the 'base material under the paint job'. And at some point I'd maybe put the imperial logo on one or both sides like it's some kind of briefcase or equipment container.. maybe a case for blasters or com logs or utility belts or whatever..


May just give up and order 5th edition PHB. I've got like 30something bucks in amazon credit I could use. I'd really prefer to get the DMG too but I'm pretty sure you need the PHB more than the DMG to get started. More funds will be filtering into the amazon account via credit card bonus points/whatever though it's a pretty slow process. Haven't been having much luck finding any reasonable deals on minis to buy so I may just use them for RPG books...

You'll need the PHB, before the DMG.

In every edition of D&D I've used the DMG the least of the trinity.

DAMN IT. Grim, you just cost me money. I've been resisting buying 5e, but at $25 a book I can't resist.

Whoops. Blame Da Boss and company... I hadn't given it that much serious though until these guys keep egging me on.

Yeah PHB is the core rules isn't it.. been awhile since I've looked. DMG was still one of my favorites for all of the tools and goodies and stuff.

Bought the Players Handbook, Monster Manual, and the starter set.

The starter set was only $12. It has a set of dice and 64 pg adventure book that takes a party up to level 5.

I considered the adventure kit but I'm trying to vastly limit hobby spending atm, recently acquired a truckload of dice, and almost never end up sticking to default materials. Does seem like a bargain though. I just ordered the PHB since that's what my amazon credit would cover. Next time I get hit with points I'll probably order the DMG, if I like what I see in the PHB that is.